Where is the grace?

[mesl4]

I’m trying to understand the Catholic teaching on grace and Christ’s merit. I’ve always been taught the Protestant understanding of grace and faith so now that I try to see the Catholic side, I have a hard time seeing God as loving. I’m seeing him as more harsh and stern and am for fearful of him, instead of viewing him as a friend if he is so quick to condemn us for our mistakes even when made unknowingly. Even from a Protestant perspective, God seems harsh if we can only be saved through understanding the Trinity and believing in that. It seems like God’s main message from the beginning of time was to love him and to love each other. It seems like true grace would forgive anyone who is earnestly trying to please God in whatever their understanding of that is - any religion, and any act then, if that person was sincerely thinking they were doing God’s will, would seem to be saved at least to purgatory. I think most of the problem in this world is based on man’s confusion. Most people who when faced with God’s coming and taught face to face by God, would submit to him and follow him I would think. I would hope he would show them all mercy at that point…even if it were in the afterlife…what do you think?

 

[WesleyF]

It seems like true grace would forgive anyone who is earnestly trying to please God in whatever their understanding of that is - any religion, and any act then, if that person was sincerely thinking they were doing God’s will, would seem to be saved at least to purgatory.

The Catholic Church would affirm that.

 

[Snerticus]

I’m trying to understand the Catholic teaching on grace and Christ’s merit. I’ve always been taught the Protestant understanding of grace and faith so now that I try to see the Catholic side, I have a hard time seeing God as loving. I’m seeing him as more harsh and stern and am for fearful of him, instead of viewing him as a friend if he is so quick to condemn us for our mistakes even when made unknowingly. Even from a Protestant perspective, God seems harsh if we can only be saved through understanding the Trinity and believing in that. It seems like God’s main message from the beginning of time was to love him and to love each other. It seems like true grace would forgive anyone who is earnestly trying to please God in whatever their understanding of that is - any religion, and any act then, if that person was sincerely thinking they were doing God’s will, would seem to be saved at least to purgatory. I think most of the problem in this world is based on man’s confusion. Most people who when faced with God’s coming and taught face to face by God, would submit to him and follow him I would think. I would hope he would show them all mercy at that point…even if it were in the afterlife…what do you think?

I would reccomend to get a better understanding of God’s mercy rather than His condemning nature by reading some of the Catholic Saint’s autobiographies’: Some are St. Faustina, St. Theresa of Avila even St. Therese of Liseaux. Reading the life of a holy person, you get a better understanding of God’s tenderness towards us.

 

[NHInsider]

I’m trying to understand the Catholic teaching on grace and Christ’s merit. I’ve always been taught the Protestant understanding of grace and faith so now that I try to see the Catholic side, I have a hard time seeing God as loving. I’m seeing him as more harsh and stern and am for fearful of him, instead of viewing him as a friend if he is so quick to condemn us for our mistakes even when made unknowingly. Even from a Protestant perspective, God seems harsh if we can only be saved through understanding the Trinity and believing in that. It seems like God’s main message from the beginning of time was to love him and to love each other. It seems like true grace would forgive anyone who is earnestly trying to please God in whatever their understanding of that is - any religion, and any act then, if that person was sincerely thinking they were doing God’s will, would seem to be saved at least to purgatory. I think most of the problem in this world is based on man’s confusion. Most people who when faced with God’s coming and taught face to face by God, would submit to him and follow him I would think. I would hope he would show them all mercy at that point…even if it were in the afterlife…what do you think?

One of the most difficult things for me to get my brain around, coming from the evangelical perspective into Catholicism, was also one of the most exciting when if finally “clicked” - which is precisely that God is NOT “quick to condemn us for our mistakes” or “we can only be saved through understanding the Trinity” etc.

I didn’t “get” this until after I’d been a Catholic for a while. The other view was so ingrained in me. It is, I think, a leftover from Puritan Calvinism, even in the non-Calvinist branches of American Protestantism (even some American Catholics suffer from it). They called it Total Depravity. There is a fundamental understanding that because of Original Sin we cannot be or do anything good. Even after we have been saved, we’re still almost constantly sinning or at least in danger of sinning, and our hope is that God will not see our sin because it will be covered by the blood of Jesus. I used to wonder how it would be possible to make a good confession, convinced as I was that I was committing dozens of sins every day (and I was a pretty well-behaved little Baptist).

Catholicism teaches that Original Sin has corrupted our nature, but because we were created in the Image and Likeness of God who is Good and who created us and pronounced us good, even the unregenerate person is capable of doing good. What none of us is capable of is being perfect, or of overcoming in our own strength the chasm that separates us from God - because we are corrupted. What God has done is to offer us grace - freely given though not free, purchased by the Blood of Jesus, to make it possible for us to please Him. And when we have been saved by grace, through faith we are able to do the good works he has had for us from the beginning (Eph. 2). So our ordinary, run-of-the-day acts are not “automatically” sinful or in danger of being sins, but are “automatically” good so long as we submit to His will (“remain in a state of grace”).

This was an incredibly freeing paradigm shift for me, and I hope it will someday open up to you as well.

As to your second point - Jesus is The Way, the Truth and the Life. No one can come to the Father except by Him. Jesus commanded us to spread the Gospel to all nations. Yet we believe with St. Paul that God may extend the grace of salvation even to others who do not know Him - and if so, they would be saved through Jesus even though they did not know it.

 

[Snerticus]

One of the most difficult things for me to get my brain around, coming from the evangelical perspective into Catholicism, was also one of the most exciting when if finally “clicked” - which is precisely that God is NOT “quick to condemn us for our mistakes” or “we can only be saved through understanding the Trinity” etc.

I didn’t “get” this until after I’d been a Catholic for a while. The other view was so ingrained in me. It is, I think, a leftover from Puritan Calvinism, even in the non-Calvinist branches of American Protestantism (even some American Catholics suffer from it). They called it Total Depravity. There is a fundamental understanding that because of Original Sin we cannot be or do anything good. Even after we have been saved, we’re still almost constantly sinning or at least in danger of sinning, and our hope is that God will not see our sin because it will be covered by the blood of Jesus. I used to wonder how it would be possible to make a good confession, convinced as I was that I was committing dozens of sins every day (and I was a pretty well-behaved little Baptist).

Catholicism teaches that Original Sin has corrupted our nature, but because we were created in the Image and Likeness of God who is Good and who created us and pronounced us good, even the unregenerate person is capable of doing good. What none of us is capable of is being perfect, or of overcoming in our own strength the chasm that separates us from God - because we are corrupted. What God has done is to offer us grace - freely given though not free, purchased by the Blood of Jesus, to make it possible for us to please Him. And when we have been saved by grace, through faith we are able to do the good works he has had for us from the beginning (Eph. 2). So our ordinary, run-of-the-day acts are not “automatically” sinful or in danger of being sins, but are “automatically” good so long as we submit to His will (“remain in a state of grace”).

This was an incredibly freeing paradigm shift for me, and I hope it will someday open up to you as well.

As to your second point - Jesus is The Way, the Truth and the Life. No one can come to the Father except by Him. Jesus commanded us to spread the Gospel to all nations. Yet we believe with St. Paul that God may extend the grace of salvation even to others who do not know Him - and if so, they would be saved through Jesus even though they did not know it.

LOL, even long time Catholics don’t get your first point. Some never do. God has Graced you with that realization, but for some it is hard.

 

[Lancer]

Originally Posted by mesl4 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif …to understand the Catholic teaching on grace and Christ’s merit

Below are several quotes from the** Catechism of the Catholic Church** (CCC)…scborromeo.org/ccc.htm…for your consideration and understanding.

When you think of Faith and Salvation…as a Catholic…you must remember and live with the following biblical truth:

1 Corinthians 13:13
So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

…
In other words…saved by Faith alone (Sola Fides)…is not a biblical truth.

Pax Christi
**
CCC Paragraphs**

2091 The first commandment is also concerned with sins against hope, namely, despair and presumption:
By despair, man ceases to hope for his personal salvation from God, for help in attaining it or for the forgiveness of his sins. Despair is contrary to God’s goodness, to **his justice - for the Lord is faithful to his promises - and to his mercy. **

1966 The New Law is the grace of the Holy Spirit given to the faithful through faith in Christ. It works through charity; it uses the Sermon on the Mount to teach us what must be done and makes use of the sacraments to give us the grace to do it: If anyone should meditate with devotion and perspicacity on the sermon our Lord gave on the mount, as we read in the Gospel of Saint Matthew, he will doubtless find there . . . the perfect way of the Christian life. . . . This sermon contains . . .*** all the precepts needed to shape one’s life***. Saint Augustine]

166 Faith is a personal** act**- the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40 [Council of Trent—1547]

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since** all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, **whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41[Rom 3:21-26]

1996[Grace]** Our justification comes from the grace of God**. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved **help that God gives us to respond to his call *to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46 [Cf. Jn 1:12-18; 17:3; Rom 8:14-17; 2 Pet 1:3-4.]

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the *sanctifying *or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48 [cf Jn 4:14; 7:38-39]

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49 2 Cor 5:17-18]

1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it.80 But “faith apart from works is dead”:81 [James 2: 26] **when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body. **

**2003 **Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate

183 Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned” (*Mk *16:16).

**987 **"In the forgiveness of sins, both priests and sacraments are instruments which our Lord Jesus Christ, the only author and liberal giver of salvation, wills to use in order to efface our sins and give us the grace of justification" (Roman Catechism, I, 11, 6).

**1861 **Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although **we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.
**

 

[mesl4]

Quote:
1966 The New Law is the grace of the Holy Spirit given to the faithful through faith in Christ. It works through charity; it uses the Sermon on the Mount to teach us what must be done and makes use of the sacraments to give us the grace to do it: If anyone should meditate with devotion and perspicacity on the sermon our Lord gave on the mount, as we read in the Gospel of Saint Matthew, he will doubtless find there . . . the perfect way of the Christian life. . . . This sermon contains . . . all the precepts needed to shape one’s life. [Saint Augustine]

That’s what I’ve always thought. But that would mean one could be saved apart from faith or sacraments, or the Church. That it would truly be dependant on our love. The Bible does say love is more important than faith and hope. Love seems to cross all boundaries of religions, cultures, rituals, etc. Love is what is written on our hearts it seems. So if someone has love, but perhaps the wrong faith, they would be saved…at least that’s what I’m hoping for.

Would you say that the sequence kinda goes like this:
grace—faith in God—new Spirit—baptism----acts of the Spirit (mercy, kindness, love, etc)—physical death----sactification and salvation/eternal life w/God.
but that it could also go like:
grace—acts of Sprit------physical death-----faith in God—sanctification/eternal life w/God??

either way, it seems like the acts of love have to go in one way or another. That doesn’t fit w/my Protestant experience though which has always made me uneasy, saying it would be more like this:
grace…faith in Jesus as our only means of salvation apart from anything we do as long as it’s true faith…sanctification and salvation/eternal life w/God
Thoughts???

 

[mesl4]

Also, what would be the Gospel/Good News to be preached? Is it that we can be resurrected like Jesus because if we have this kind of faith/love we will be raised like Jesus was and live forever w/him? (this would be my answer even though the other answers are also good news).

Or, is it that Chist instituted a Church on earth to lead us to him? (that wouldn’t be the good news since the Jews already had this and that was the reason for the Prophets)

Or, that not only Jews are given grace, but also Gentiles?

Or, that God now considers mankind his friends instead of his servants and enemies (although he’s still going to pour out his wrath on some eventually.)

or ???

 

[thistle]

That’s what I’ve always thought. But that would mean one could be saved apart from faith or sacraments, or the Church. That it would truly be dependant on our love. The Bible does say love is more important than faith and hope. Love seems to cross all boundaries of religions, cultures, rituals, etc. Love is what is written on our hearts it seems. So if someone has love, but perhaps the wrong faith, they would be saved…at least that’s what I’m hoping for.

Would you say that the sequence kinda goes like this:
grace—faith in God—new Spirit—baptism----acts of the Spirit (mercy, kindness, love, etc)—physical death----sactification and salvation/eternal life w/God.
but that it could also go like:
grace—acts of Sprit------physical death-----faith in God—sanctification/eternal life w/God??

either way, it seems like the acts of love have to go in one way or another. That doesn’t fit w/my Protestant experience though which has always made me uneasy, saying it would be more like this:
grace…faith in Jesus as our only means of salvation apart from anything we do as long as it’s true faith…sanctification and salvation/eternal life w/God
Thoughts???

That is not correct and is not Catholic teaching.

A Catholic who dies in a state of grace will be saved. It is the state of the soul at death that determines if they are saved or go to Hell. That means how much they have loved and done good deeds during their life has no merit if they die in a state of mortal sin.

Those who are not formally baptised Catholics have a possibility of being saved under certain scenarios as they would be deemed to be Catholic at death. Everyone in Heaven is Catholic.

Those who have come to know something about Christ and are exploring further with a desire to becoming a Catholic and are living a life in accordance with Christ’s teachings but they die before formally becoming Catholic. This is called Baptism of Desire which could also include those who know something about Christ, live a live accordingly but are denied the opportunity to explore Christ and the Catholic Church which Christ established.

Those in invincible ignorance which means those people who have never heard of Christ but live a life in accordance with Christ’s teachings without knowing that.

Frankly, I don’t believe there can be many people on this planet who have not heard of Christ and have the chance to learn more about him and his Church so I think there will not be many captured under invincible ignorance.

As for those in other religions, they clearly know about Christ but have rejected his Church and his teachings and they will not be saved.

 

[mesl4]

That is not correct and is not Catholic teaching.
As for those in other religions, they clearly know about Christ but have rejected his Church and his teachings and they will not be saved.

But to not be saved, you have to be in mortal sin, right? It is only a mortal sin if you know it is and do it anyway, so those you don’t know what they’re doing is a sin, are not in mortal sin, just venial which seems to be given more mercy. So, mormons, JWs, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, etc. that worship and love God, but don’t understand all his teachings right, but are doing what they think God wants them to do, they would be given mercy (hopefully), even those that are atheists that do good would potentially even be given mercy because doesn’t Paul say something like "when the Gentiles do by nature what is required by the law, they are a showing that the law is on their heart " or something like that?? So he’s refering to those outside the chosen people, being saved and chosen also, because they are doing naturally what they are supposed to, even though they might not know about the one who’s giving them the grace to do those things.

I don’t know, maybe not, it also seems very clear in the Bible that we need to believe in who Jesus is, at least to the point of accepting him as the Messiah/chosen/annointed one from God to save mankind and forgive us. It’s just going to feel so unfair when I’ve spent most of my life studying theologians, doctrines, history, the Bible, trying to figure out which teaching is closest to God’s will, I try to love and serve and be like Jesus as best I can as a mom and wife, but if I get to judgement day and God says, “Sorry, you tried, but never believed the right one, burn in hell.” I’ll just be so devastated. Just thinking it makes me want to cry. How can anyone know what’s right w/all the confusion in the world? With all the deceit and lies not only from humans, but from angels/demons too?! It would be easier if we could trust that any seemingly good spirit/apparition was from God, but even angels of light are going around trying to trick us! Who can we trust? We’re left to chance it seems. Does’t seem like the way of a loving , merciful Father, so seems like it can’t be the way.

 

[Mintaka]

God gives people a lot of opportunities for finding His grace. They are not as well-marked of paths as the Sacraments, but they can still be sufficient.

Say you were Joe Pagan. Say you cheated on your wife. Even if your culture said it was okay, you might well be warned by your conscience that you’d done wrong. This would urge you toward contrition for your sin and making reparation to your wife. It wouldn’t be as sure a channel of grace as going to Confession; but if someone can achieve true contrition, God will forgive sins that way too.

However, even if Joe Pagan thinks he is busily following his non-Christian religion, if he does good it’s through Jesus. And it’s through Christ and His Church that the person can be saved, even if Joe Pagan thinks until his last moment that Christians eat babies, and would never think of becoming such a degenerate.

However, all things being equal, it would certainly be a lot easier on Joe if he was given a bigger dose of the truth about God than he has. And the world would make a lot more sense for him, too.

 

[allhers]

That is not correct and is not Catholic teaching.

A Catholic who dies in a state of grace will be saved. It is the state of the soul at death that determines if they are saved or go to Hell. That means how much they have loved and done good deeds during their life has no merit if they die in a state of mortal sin.

Those who are not formally baptised Catholics have a possibility of being saved under certain scenarios as they would be deemed to be Catholic at death. Everyone in Heaven is Catholic.

Those who have come to know something about Christ and are exploring further with a desire to becoming a Catholic and are living a life in accordance with Christ’s teachings but they die before formally becoming Catholic. This is called Baptism of Desire which could also include those who know something about Christ, live a live accordingly but are denied the opportunity to explore Christ and the Catholic Church which Christ established.

Those in invincible ignorance which means those people who have never heard of Christ but live a life in accordance with Christ’s teachings without knowing that.

Frankly, I don’t believe there can be many people on this planet who have not heard of Christ and have the chance to learn more about him and his Church so I think there will not be many captured under invincible ignorance.

As for those in other religions, they clearly know about Christ but have rejected his Church and his teachings and they will not be saved.

I think you did pretty good until you got to the last three paragraphs on invincible ignorance, you might want to study up a little more on that, especially that last sentance.

 

[thistle]

I think you did pretty good until you got to the last three paragraphs on invincible ignorance, you might want to study up a little more on that, especially that last sentance.

CCC 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

Leaving aside invincible ignorance the highlighted parts clearly show that salvation is only from Christ through the Catholic Church and those who leave it or refuse to enter it will not be saved.
Obviously Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims and those of other non-Christian religions have rejected Christ and so will not be saved. Everyone who rejects Christ and his Church will not be saved.
Slightly more tricky when it comes to Protestants. They believe Christ is our only salvation and they have some of the truth but only the fullness of truth is found in the Catholic Church. Those Protestants who have looked at and investigated the Catholic Church and have rejected it I believe unless they repent before death they be not be saved.
I’m not so clear on Protestants who have not condemned the Catholic Church nor explored it to see if it has the fullness of truth but were simply born and brought up Methodists, Anglicans or whatever and simply accepted their lot.

As for invincible ignorance I would stand my ground and say there cannot be many who would fall into this category. How many do you think have never heard of Christ and the Church he established?

 

[mesl4]

CCC 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

Leaving aside invincible ignorance the highlighted parts clearly show that salvation is only from Christ through the Catholic Church and those who leave it or refuse to enter it will not be saved.
Obviously Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims and those of other non-Christian religions have rejected Christ and so will not be saved. Everyone who rejects Christ and his Church will not be saved.
Slightly more tricky when it comes to Protestants. They believe Christ is our only salvation and they have some of the truth but only the fullness of truth is found in the Catholic Church. Those Protestants who have looked at and investigated the Catholic Church and have rejected it I believe unless they repent before death they be not be saved.
I’m not so clear on Protestants who have not condemned the Catholic Church nor explored it to see if it has the fullness of truth but were simply born and brought up Methodists, Anglicans or whatever and simply accepted their lot.

As for invincible ignorance I would stand my ground and say there cannot be many who would fall into this category. How many do you think have never heard of Christ and the Church he established?

The key is to the part you quoted above:

Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

Those who reject it, usually it’s because they do not know it’s founded and necessary by God. That is my situation, and every other believer or God-lover I can think of. We are in the belief that we think is founded or necessary by God and the reason we don’t join another religion is because we don’t think it’s what God wants. I see the ROman Catholic claims as to why THEY believe it’s THE church founded by God, but the reason I have not jumped my Protestant ship and converted yet, is because I fear that the anti-Catholic claims may be true or that the RCs or EO have misinterpreted JEsus’ words to Peter and the understanding of what a “Church” is. IF the RC claims are true then, we would be invincibly ignorant. We would not be rejecting what we think is true, we’d be following our consciences to what is true and rejecting what our conscience says is wrong.

 

[allhers]

Leaving aside invincible ignorance the highlighted parts clearly show that salvation is only from Christ through the Catholic Church and those who leave it or refuse to enter it will not be saved.
Obviously Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims and those of other non-Christian religions have rejected Christ and so will not be saved. Everyone who rejects Christ and his Church will not be saved.
Slightly more tricky when it comes to Protestants. They believe Christ is our only salvation and they have some of the truth but only the fullness of truth is found in the Catholic Church. Those Protestants who have looked at and investigated the Catholic Church and have rejected it I believe unless they repent before death they be not be saved.
I’m not so clear on Protestants who have not condemned the Catholic Church nor explored it to see if it has the fullness of truth but were simply born and brought up Methodists, Anglicans or whatever and simply accepted their lot.

As for invincible ignorance I would stand my ground and say there cannot be many who would fall into this category. How many do you think have never heard of Christ and the Church he established?

But that is exactly what I spoke to, so I don’t want to leave aside invincible ignorance.

Perhaps one of us is confused on this.

Invincible ignorance is lack of knowledge, either of fact or law, for which a person is not morally responsible. This may be due to the difficulty of the object of the knowledge, or scarcity of evidence, or insufficient time or talent in the person, or any other factor for which he is not culpable. The word “invincible” means “not easily overcome.” **
On the other hand, vincible ignorance is “easily overcome.” It is lack of knowledge for which a person is morally responsible. **source: ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=509834&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=2007&Author=&Keyword=invincible+ignorance&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=5&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

(my bold)

I agree with you on the part of the post I left off of this one, I was addressing the issue of invincible on my first post to you, NOT they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. (You didn’t say that in the post I addressed, I agree with that.)

 

[thistle]

The key is to the part you quoted above:

Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

Those who reject it, usually it’s because they do not know it’s founded and necessary by God. That is my situation, and every other believer or God-lover I can think of. We are in the belief that we think is founded or necessary by God and the reason we don’t join another religion is because we don’t think it’s what God wants. I see the ROman Catholic claims as to why THEY believe it’s THE church founded by God, but the reason I have not jumped my Protestant ship and converted yet, is because I fear that the anti-Catholic claims may be true or that the RCs or EO have misinterpreted JEsus’ words to Peter and the understanding of what a “Church” is. IF the RC claims are true then, we would be invincibly ignorant. We would not be rejecting what we think is true, we’d be following our consciences to what is true and rejecting what our conscience says is wrong.

I wouldn’t agree. If a person has looked into the Catholic Church being the true Church and has decided it is not then that is rejecting the Church. That is not invincible ignorance.

 

[thistle]

But that is exactly what I spoke to, so I don’t want to leave aside invincible ignorance.

Perhaps one of us is confused on this.

Invincible ignorance is lack of knowledge, either of fact or law, for which a person is not morally responsible. This may be due to the difficulty of the object of the knowledge, or scarcity of evidence, or insufficient time or talent in the person, or any other factor for which he is not culpable. The word “invincible” means “not easily overcome.” **
On the other hand, vincible ignorance is “easily overcome.” It is lack of knowledge for which a person is morally responsible. **source: ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=509834&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=2007&Author=&Keyword=invincible+ignorance&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=5&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

(my bold)

I agree with you on the part of the post I left off of this one, I was addressing the issue of invincible on my first post to you, NOT they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. (You didn’t say that in the post I addressed, I agree with that.)

The answer at EWTN is simply an extract from the Catholic Encyclopedia.

Invincible ignorance means a person having absolutely no knowledge of Christ and his Church, while at the same time living their entire life according to the teachings of Christ and his Church without realising that. Such a person may (not will) be saved.
There cannot be many people in the world that applies to.

It also has to be remembered that even someone in invincible ignorance still has original sin and that can only be removed by baptism (water, blood, desire).

 

[allhers]

I suggest reading this, perhaps you agree with it and I am just having a hard time understanding what you are saying. (It sounds to me like you are saying that they actually have to be in the Church, not that they are saved through the Church).

Not of this Fold

Extra ecclesiam, nulla salus does not mean that only faithful Roman Catholics can be saved. The Church has never taught that. So where does that leave non-Catholics and non-Christians?

Jesus told his followers, “I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd” (John 10:16). After his Resurrection, Jesus gave the threefold command to Peter: “Feed my lambs. . . . Tend my sheep. . . . Feed my sheep” (John 21:15–17). The word translated as “tend” (poimaine) means “to direct” or “to superintend”—in other words, “to govern.” So although there are sheep that are not of Christ’s fold,** it is through the Church that they are able to receive his salvation.** (my bold.)
People who have never had an opportunity to hear of Christ and his Church—and those Christians whose minds have been closed to the truth of the Church by their conditioning—are not necessarily cut off from God’s mercy. Vatican II phrases the doctrine in these terms:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their consciences—those too may achieve eternal salvation (LG 16).

Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery (Gaudium et Spes 22).

source:
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512fea3.asp

 

[allhers]

It goes on further, …at the very end to say what you are saying though.

On the other hand, the Church has long made it clear that if a person rejects the Church with full knowledge and consent, he puts his soul in danger:
They cannot be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or remain in it (cf. LG 14).
The Catholic Church is “the single and exclusive channel by which the truth and grace of Christ enter our world of space and time” (Karl Adam, The Spirit of Catholicism, 179). Those who do not know the Church, even those who fight against it, can receive these gifts if they honestly seek God and his truth. But, Adam says, “though it be not the Catholic Church itself that hands them the bread of truth and grace, yet it is Catholic bread that they eat.” And when they eat of it, “without knowing it or willing it” they are “incorporated in the supernatural substance of the Church.”

Extra ecclesiam, nulla salus.