Where is the Kingdom of God? Within or among? (Luke 17:20)

[Vouthon]

Luke 17:20-21

“…Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you/ in your midst/ among you…”

For me this is the most confusing passage in all of Sacred Scripture. I find it so aggravating that probably the most important question of all, “where is the Kingdom of God?” has an answer that in translation from the Greek is ambiguous at best!

Saint Augustine and the Gospel of Thomas understand the Kingdom as being “within”:

“…Our Father who art in Heaven: what is this – Heaven? And where is Heaven? “… who art in Heaven” – that means: within the saints and within the just. Yes, the heavens are the highest bodies in the universe, but they are still bodies, which cannot exist except in a given location. Yet if we believe that God is located in the heavens, meaning in the highest parts of the world, then the birds would be more fortunate than we, since they would live closer to God. Yet it is not written: ‘The Lord is close to those who dwell on the heights or on the mountains’, but rather: ‘the Lord is close to the brokenhearted’, an expression which refers to humility. Just as the sinner is called ‘Earth’, so by contrast the just man can be called ‘Heaven’…"

- Saint Augustine of Hippo

"…Jesus said, “If those who lead you [religious leaders ie Pharisees] say, ‘See, the Kingdom is in the heavens,’ then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, ‘it is under the earth,’ then the fish will precede you. Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will find the Kingdom, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty…”

(The Gospel of Thomas)

Others translate the phrase as “among you” ie meaning that it is spread out upon the earth in the hearts of all people who do the will of God. The idea would seem then to be similar to another saying in Thomas:

“…His disciples said to him, “When will the kingdom come?” “It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, ‘Look, here!’ or ‘Look, there!’ Rather, the Father’s kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don’t see it.”…”

- Gospel of Thomas (saying 113)

Others translate it as, “in your midst” which would seem to infer that Jesus himself is the Kingdom of God in the midst of the Pharisees. In his book, “Jesus of Nazareth” Pope Benedict XVI, while also saying that the Kingdom of God is also an inner reality, stated that in the passage at hand in Luke “amidst you”, as referring to Jesus himself, was probably the best understanding.

However the problem is that Jesus tells us the Kingdom “cannot be observed”. But Jesus was standing right in front of them? Wouldn’t this present a problem for this theory? If Jesus is saying that he himself is the Kingdom of God then why is it that he says it “cannot be observed”?

Also Jesus said in John that, “My Kingdom is not of this world” ie my meaning the possesion of something and so not referring to himself and also a spiritual reality not bound to the world which I think also causes problems for this theory.

We know from Saint Paul that Christ is within us, and that we are Temples of the Holy Spirit, so the odd thing is that whether its “within” or “among” - well if Jesus is the Kingdom of God and Jesus is within us, then the Kingdom of God is within us anyway.

However I am still quite confused

Pope Benedict XVI also once said:

“…Heaven is not a place and cannot be found on a map; rather it is where God’s will is done…”

- Pope Benedict XVI

Jesus would seem to have confirmed this when he said:

“…Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.…”

- Jesus Christ (Sermon on the Mount)

What are your thoughts my dear brothers and sisters?

(BTW I am using Thomas only as a point of cross-reference. Pope Benedict XVI quoted the Gospel of Thomas favourably in his book, “Jesus of Nazareth” - so if the Holy Father can then I can too )

 

[Vouthon]

Another question:

The Greek word used in Luke 17:21 is entos. Its an adverb or noun used only twice in the entire New Testament, here in Luke and also in Matthew 23:25-26. In the latter passage it clearly means “inside/within” referring to the inside of a cup, which stands for a Pharisee’s heart, and contrasting this with the outside appearence of the cup/Pharisee.

There is a Greek word “mesos” (Strong’s NT: 3319) that is routinely translated “midst/among” which is used 62 times in the NT. Luke himself used “mesos” fourteen times in writing his gospel. Would one not assume that if he intended us to translate Luke 17:21 as “in the midst” or “among” as opposed to “within you”, he would have used “mesos”" rather than “entos” as he already demonstrated that he was communicating “midst” in his gospel by using “mesos”?

To illustrate this:

MESOS —

Luke 22:55 Adj-NMS
BIB: ὁ Πέτρος μέσος αὐτῶν
NAS: Peter was sitting among them.
KJV: Peter sat down among them.
INT: Peter among them

Are we to believe that Luke had a perfectly good word for “among” that he used 14 times within his gospel but in Luke 17:21 he just decided to randomly use the word “entos” that is used at no other place in his Gospel and only once more in the entire New Testament and on that one other occassion it clearly means “within/inside”?

Hmm…

 

[kch86]

(This is my speculation because I found this question interesting. I might not have contributed any new scriptural knowledge, but for the sake of discussion, I’m sharing my understanding, and hoping someone else will provide in-depth scriptural analysis.)

The Kingdom of God, or heaven really cannot be found on the map. It is in a parallel, spiritual dimension (at the moment) and not on the material Earth or some distant planet. At the same time, the spiritual dimension is pretty much right here, but we are not aware of it.

In Luke 17:21, it is clear the Pharisees were expecting an earthly kingdom and Jesus was emphasising the fact that the Kingdom of God was not going to be a literal, political kingdom on Earth. Not until the end of the world at least. Jews at the time expected the Messiah to have political power. The new Israel, the promised land, however, is not of this world.

As Christians, we believe in the literal resurrection of the body, and so after the end of the world, heaven will also include the material dimension and will become fully a literal place.

The Kingdom of God is within us insofar as the Holy Spirit dwells within us. The Holy Spirit will dwell within us when we are free from mortal sin, i.e. when we do God’s Will. This indwelling of the Holy Spirit (and with Him the rest of the Trinity: the Father and the Son) is why the Father, who is in Heaven is also within the saints (us - when we’re free from sin). They do God’s will and so He rules their hearts as a King and thus His Kingdom is within them.

The Gospel of Thomas is valuable as a historical document which can tell us some new information and corroborate existing truths, but it is strongly influenced by the gnostic heresies of the day. Although a gross over-simplification, gnosticism is a sort of New Agey version of Christianity, and in it, the phrase that the Kingdom of God is “within us” may be interpreted in various ways, such as that it is something that can be accessed through deep study if we discover some particular bit of secret knowledge or as a sort of panentheism.

That’s not what the Kingdom of God is at all, but many people who don’t take kindly to dogmatic Christianity may interpret it as something more ethereal and vague that isn’t really real.

It isn’t particularly wrong to see it as a literal place somewhere “out there.” Unlike gnosticism, which holds that truth can only be discovered by the wise, God intended to make Christian revelation accessible to everyone and a simple understanding, I believe, is adequate. And also, it may well be what the experience of it is like for someone who has passed on from this world to the next. It very much is somewhere, but that’s not the whole story. Given that it is outside of space and time, it is in a way everywhere and every-when. And God also dwells within our hearts when we follow His Will.

I think the point is that whenever Jesus said “within,” “amidst” or “among,” he was expressing different theological ideas, as the Kingdom of God can in essence be interpreted as being all three of those things in different ways because it is in a dimension that we cannot yet fully comprehend. Like when He said it’s within us, he was emphasising its spiritual as opposed to political nature, as well as expressing the idea of the indwelling of the Trinity, similar to what St. Augustine was expressing when he said that our Father was within the saints. All three words are an expression of the spiritual nature of heaven.

I wouldn’t get too hung up about it. I’d just try to avoid a too ethereal, gnostic or New Age understanding of it. Heaven is very much heaven - “a place no eye has seen, no ear has heard and no mind has imagined that God has prepared for those who love him.” It will one day, after the Resurrection, include our material bodies in it, so it won’t be a sort of vague, nebulous or airy thing at all, but something that we will indeed be able to see, hear, touch, taste and smell.

 

[Vouthon]

(This is my speculation because I found this question interesting. I might not have contributed any new scriptural knowledge, but for the sake of discussion, I’m sharing my understanding.)

The Kingdom of God, or heaven really cannot be found on the map. It is in a parallel, spiritual dimension (at the moment) and not on the material Earth or some distant planet. At the same time, the spiritual dimension is pretty much right here, but we are not aware of it.

In Luke 17:21, it is clear the Pharisees were expecting an earthly kingdom and Jesus was emphasising the fact that the Kingdom of God was not going to be a literal, political kingdom on Earth. Not until the end of the world at least. Jews at the time expected the Messiah to have political power. The new Israel, the promised land, however, is not of this world.

As Christians, we believe in the literal resurrection of the body, and so after the end of the world, heaven will also include the material dimension and will become fully a literal place.

The Kingdom of God is within us insofar as the Holy Spirit dwells within us. The Holy Spirit will dwell within us when we are free from mortal sin, i.e. when we do God’s Will. This indwelling of the Holy Spirit (and with Him the rest of the Trinity: the Father and the Son) is why the Father, who is in Heaven is also within the saints (us - when we’re free from sin). They do God’s will and so He rules their hearts as a King and thus His Kingdom is within them.

The Gospel of Thomas is valuable as a historical document which can tell us some new information and corroborate existing truths, but it is strongly influenced by the gnostic heresies of the day. Although a gross over-simplification, gnosticism is a sort of New Agey version of Christianity, and in it, the phrase that the Kingdom of God is “within us” may be interpreted in various ways, such as that it is something that can be accessed through deep study if we discover some particular bit of secret knowledge or as a sort of panentheism.

That’s not what the Kingdom of God is at all, but many people who don’t take kindly to dogmatic Christianity may interpret it as something more ethereal and vague that isn’t really real.

It isn’t particularly wrong to see it as a literal place somewhere “out there.” Unlike gnosticism, which holds that truth can only be discovered by the wise, God intended to make Christian revelation accessible to everyone and a simple understanding, I believe, is adequate. And also, it may well be what the experience of it is like for someone who has passed on from this world to the next. It very much is somewhere, but that’s not the whole story. Given that it is outside of space and time, it is in a way everywhere and every-when. And God also dwells within our hearts when we follow His Will.

I think the point is that whenever Jesus said “within,” “amidst” or “among,” he was expressing different theological ideas, as the Kingdom of God can in essence be interpreted as being all three of those things in different ways because it is in a dimension that we cannot yet fully comprehend. Like when He said it’s within us, he was emphasising its spiritual as opposed to political nature, as well as expressing the idea of the indwelling of the Trinity, similar to what St. Augustine was expressing when he said that our Father was within the saints. All three words are an expression of the spiritual nature of heaven.

I wouldn’t get too hung up about it. I’d just try to avoid a too ethereal, gnostic or New Age understanding of it. Heaven is very much heaven - “a place no eye has seen, no ear has heard and no mind has imagined that God has prepared for those who love him.” It will one day, after the Resurrection, include our material bodies in it, so it won’t be a sort of vague, nebulous or airy thing at all, but something that we will indeed be able to see, hear, touch, taste and smell.

Brilliant post brother! I welcome your thoughts!

And I agree with you 100% about the dangers of New Age!

 

[John7]

Also, (i too am still trying to understand this verse) IMO, its not that Jesus is the kingdom of God
or that the Kingdom of God is inside an individual (although the King is spiritually Gal4.6),
but that together we, the King and all His subjects (Christians), make up the kingdom of God.

A Christian becomes *part of * the kingdom of God. Like a person living in Jerusalem at some
time was a member of the kingdom of Herod. He wouldn’t say the entire kingdom of Herod is
residing in me, but that ‘i am a part of Herod’s kingdom’.

Jesus was with the disciples (??) when the Pharisees confronted him, asking him about the
kingdom of God. i think when He refers to the ‘kingdom is in your midst’ he was referring to this
group (Jesus-the King, and his disciples) being in the midst of the Pharisees.

 

[Vouthon]

Also, (i too am still trying to understand this verse) IMO, its not that Jesus is the kingdom of God
or that the Kingdom of God is inside an individual (although the King is spiritually Gal4.6),
but that together we, the King and all His subjects (Christians), make up the kingdom of God.

A Christian becomes *part of * the kingdom of God. Like a person living in Jerusalem at some
time was a member of the kingdom of Herod. He wouldn’t say the entire kingdom of Herod is
residing in me, but that ‘i am a part of Herod’s kingdom’.

Jesus was with the disciples (??) when the Pharisees confronted him, asking him about the
kingdom of God. i think when He refers to the ‘kingdom is in your midst’ he was referring to this
group (Jesus-the King, and his disciples) being in the midst of the Pharisees.

Thank you for your reply brother!

I have never heard or considered this theory before - very interesting!

 

[PJM]

=Vouthon;9024013]Luke 17:20-21

“…Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you/ in your midst/ among you…”

From the RSV Bible: Luke 17:2 -21 "Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, Lo, here it is!' or **There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” **

BOTH the DR Bible and the NKJ Bible to say “within you”

IT IS BOTH. The kingdom of God [the Holy Spirt} resides in all those who: 1. Believe and 2. Are in the State of Grace [a term meaning with NO unconfesses and unremitted Mortal sins]. The Kingdom of God on earth is Christ Own Catholic Church:thumbsup: We are in it’s midst while at the same time IT is IN OUR MIDST TOO.

God Bless,
Pat

For me this is the most confusing passage in all of Sacred Scripture. I find it so aggravating that probably the most important question of all, “where is the Kingdom of God?” has an answer that in translation from the Greek is ambiguous at best!

It is VERY common for words used in the Bible to have more than one meaning:

EXAMPLES:

Deciples = both all -followers and the Apostles specifically
Brothers = actuall blood relatives and the followers of Christ of male gender
“Loose and Bind” = power ot forgive sin and Complete authority to Govern

The message and the teaching for your reference verse means that we are "to be in God; and that We ARE to allow God to be in us."

The term "kingdom of God is retorical in this application

From Haydonck Catholic Commentary:
***"The Pharisees expected a Messias powerful according to this world, a conqueror, a monarch, a revenger of the injuries of Israel; one who would restore them to liberty, and bless them with temporal goods and prosperity. In Jesus, they saw nothing, which corresponded to these magnificent hopes; and therefore asked him, by way of insult and reproach, when this kingdom of God would come, which he so often talked of and announced to his disciples. He answers them, that the manifestation of the Messias, and the establishment of his kingdom, shall not be effected in a conspicuous, splendid manner. It shall be brought about insensibly, and the accomplishment of the designs of the omnipotence of our Lord shall appear a casualty, and the effect of secondary causes. You shall not see the Messias coming at the head of armies, to spread terror and desolation. His arrival shall not be announced by ambassadors, &c. every thing in the establishment of my kingdom shall be the reverse of temporal power. (Calmet)

Ver. 21. Is within you. It is with you; your Messias is already come. — He standeth in the midst of you, as John the Baptist told you. (John i. 26.)***
God Bless you.
Pat

 

[Publisher]

The Kingdom of God…the Rule of God…exists where His people live by Kingdom prinicples…where love and mercy are offered instead of hate and retribution…where justice and righteousness are seen together as the same root word in scripture is used for “just” and “righteous”…the Kingdom of God IS present where God’s People live within the Kingdom Rule of God…“God has rescued us from the power of darkness and has brought us into the kingdom of his Son, whom he loves”

The Kingdom is here now among us…within us…if we live within the Kingdom of God as true citizens…one Friend called the Sermon on the Mount the “charter for the Kingdom of God”.

 

[Vouthon]

From the RSV Bible: Luke 17:2 -21 "Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, Lo, here it is!' or **There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” **

BOTH the DR Bible and the NKJ Bible to say “within you”

IT IS BOTH. The kingdom of God [the Holy Spirt} resides in all those who: 1. Believe and 2. Are in the State of Grace [a term meaning with NO unconfesses and unremitted Mortal sins]. The Kingdom of God on earth is Christ Own Catholic Church:thumbsup: We are in it’s midst while at the same time IT is IN OUR MIDST TOO.

God Bless,
Pat

For me this is the most confusing passage in all of Sacred Scripture. I find it so aggravating that probably the most important question of all, “where is the Kingdom of God?” has an answer that in translation from the Greek is ambiguous at best!

It is VERY common for words used in the Bible to have more than one meaning:

EXAMPLES:

Deciples = both all -followers and the Apostles specifically
Brothers = actuall blood relatives and the followers of Christ of male gender
“Loose and Bind” = power ot forgive sin and Complete authority to Govern

The message and the teaching for your reference verse means that we are "to be in God; and that We ARE to allow God to be in us."

The term "kingdom of God is retorical in this application

From Haydonck Catholic Commentary:
***"The Pharisees expected a Messias powerful according to this world, a conqueror, a monarch, a revenger of the injuries of Israel; one who would restore them to liberty, and bless them with temporal goods and prosperity. In Jesus, they saw nothing, which corresponded to these magnificent hopes; and therefore asked him, by way of insult and reproach, when this kingdom of God would come, which he so often talked of and announced to his disciples. He answers them, that the manifestation of the Messias, and the establishment of his kingdom, shall not be effected in a conspicuous, splendid manner. It shall be brought about insensibly, and the accomplishment of the designs of the omnipotence of our Lord shall appear a casualty, and the effect of secondary causes. You shall not see the Messias coming at the head of armies, to spread terror and desolation. His arrival shall not be announced by ambassadors, &c. every thing in the establishment of my kingdom shall be the reverse of temporal power. (Calmet)

Ver. 21. Is within you. It is with you; your Messias is already come. — He standeth in the midst of you, as John the Baptist told you. (John i. 26.)***
God Bless you.
Pat

Thanks brother PJM Very illuminating! Especially the knowledge that other words in the NT have multiple meanings. I particularly like how you embrace both meanings “within” and “among”.

 

[Vouthon]

The Kingdom of God…the Rule of God…exists where His people live by Kingdom prinicples…where love and mercy are offered instead of hate and retribution…where justice and righteousness are seen together as the same root word in scripture is used for “just” and “righteous”…the Kingdom of God IS present where God’s People live within the Kingdom Rule of God…“God has rescued us from the power of darkness and has brought us into the kingdom of his Son, whom he loves”

The Kingdom is here now among us…within us…if we live within the Kingdom of God as true citizens…one Friend called the Sermon on the Mount the “charter for the Kingdom of God”.

Beautiful! I really do adore Quakers! John Woolman is one of my all-time Christian “heroes” He really was a God-intoxicated, Christ-like emanation of sheer love and benevolence.

I particularly like how one Quaker referred to the Sermon on the Mount as the “charter of the Kingdom of God”. What a splendid way of looking at it! Charter!

 

[Publisher]

Beautiful! I really do adore Quakers! John Woolman is one of my all-time Christian “heroes” He really was a God-intoxicated, Christ-like emanation of sheer love and benevolence.

I particularly like how one Quaker referred to the Sermon on the Mount as the “charter of the Kingdom of God”. What a splendid way of looking at it! Charter!

John Woolman is one of my favorite Quaker saints.

 

[trogiah]

The following is from chapter 30 of Deuteronomy and is, I think, a fairly close parallel to what Jesus was trying to say.

“For this command which I am giving you today is not too wondrous or remote for you. 12It is not in the heavens, that you should say, “Who will go up to the heavens to get it for us and tell us of it, that we may do it?” 13Nor is it across the sea, that you should say, “Who will cross the sea to get it for us and tell us of it, that we may do it?” 14No, it is something very near to you, in your mouth* and in your heart, to do it.”

peace

Jim

 

[PJM]

=Publisher;9025506]The Kingdom of God…the Rule of God…exists where His people live by Kingdom prinicples…where love and mercy are offered instead of hate and retribution…where justice and righteousness are seen together as the same root word in scripture is used for “just” and “righteous”…the Kingdom of God IS present where God’s People live within the Kingdom Rule of God…“God has rescued us from the power of darkness and has brought us into the kingdom of his Son, whom he loves”

The Kingdom is here now among us…within us…if we live within the Kingdom of God as true citizens…one Friend called the Sermon on the Mount the “charter for the Kingdom of God”.

That dear friend is an awesome POST and understanding

Thank you,

Pat