Where is the line between anger at God and blasphemy?

[dshix]

To be clear, this kind of anger should not be directed at anybody, not just God. But again, we are only human and feeling angry at times is only natural. There was a time in my life (many years ago) that I was so angry with God that I gave him an ultimatum! And when he didn’t do what I wanted I didn’t speak to him for at least a year! What can I say, anger isn’t exactly a rational emotion. Needless to say, we’ve made up since then.

I disagree with your first sentence. Jesus had righteous anger against the moneylenders: this was not a mere emotion, nor was it a mere swing of passion; it was true anger against the injustice (and the irreverence) of selling material goods in the temple.

There are many cases in real life that righteous anger is fitting. But never, ever against God, because there is never a legitimate reason to have this kind of anger against Him.

I disagree with this viewpoint.

Did my little boy deserve to get autism? What did he do to deserve that? What did we do to deserve that? I sometimes blame myself saying it must be my fault. But it is definitely not his fault!
Did me and my wife deserve to be infertile despite being open to life? What did we do to deserve that?
OK, enough about us. What about others?
Do children in the cancer ward deserve to get the cancers they suffer with?
Did the rank and file employees of Enron, Worldcom, etc. deserve to be laid off because the upper management were corrupt?
I could go on and list tons of other examples of undeserved suffering, but what about the biggest one? Did Christ Jesus DESERVE the cross? He is human too!

By saying people deserve their sufferings, it is tantamount to declaring people to be evil.

I think that your last sentence keys in to the whole point which I am making here:

“By saying people deserve their sufferings, it is tantamount to declaring people to be evil.”

Guess what? It is true. Outside of God’s infinite forgiving grace, we humans are utterly deserving of Hell and all sufferings because we have sinned against God again and again and again. There is no reason for God to owe us anything but eternal punishment. But God sent His only-begotten Son, who took on a determinate human nature so that He could take on the sins of the world upon his shoulders. By the Redemption, we can have the forgiveness and the grace necessary to go to Heaven.

But that doesn’t mean we deserve to be free from suffering. Rather, we should have suffering so that we can expiate our sins (pay off the temporal punishment due to sin).

All that is to say that yes, we humans are evil, OUTSIDE OF God’s grace.
It sounds harsh (and I apologize if I frustrate you) but yes, all of the examples you can possibly cite in which some person or persons has to deal with some terrible suffering is deserved, because of sin. Original Sin, Actual Sin, you name it, sin.

Now, the discussion of why we suffer for our parents’ (Adam and Eve’s) sin is for another thread, so I won’t discuss it here.

 

[Pat_Albertson]

God can withstand any amount of your anger, no matter how much of it you have you will not hurt Him. He can also see, feel, taste, smell, hear your anger with the sensations you know, every other sensation you can imagine, and an infinite number that are beyond your imagination. You cannot hide your anger from God even if you are completely successful at lying to yourself about it.

In the end, you might as well express all of your anger to God and see if you get an answer back. I think most of the time you will sooner or later, and often it’s sooner. The answer will not come as an angry blast right back at you, but will usually be soft and reasonable, and you will know it to be the truth. It may not be what you want to hear, but it will be the truth even if it seems like something that simply has to be wrong. Even if you rage at God that He does not love you, that he hates you and that He might a profound mistake in creating you, he will come back and softly tell you that what you said is not true. You may pout at Him and call Him a liar, but he will tell you that that is not true either.

If there is a sin here, it isn’t so much in the rage, anger, or even hatred, but in the willful stubbornness with which one might hold on to it.

Why are we stubborn? I don’t know, but we just are, and I think that is what we need to ponder and work on rather than the anger.

Anyway, that’s how I see it.

 

[Rubia]

I think that your last sentence keys in to the whole point which I am making here:

“By saying people deserve their sufferings, it is tantamount to declaring people to be evil.”

Guess what? It is true. Outside of God’s infinite forgiving grace, we humans are utterly deserving of Hell and all sufferings because we have sinned against God again and again and again. There is no reason for God to owe us anything but eternal punishment. But God sent His only-begotten Son, who took on a determinate human nature so that He could take on the sins of the world upon his shoulders. By the Redemption, we can have the forgiveness and the grace necessary to go to Heaven.

I completely disagree with your notions.A few things here:

1. No baby deserves punishment. To think that they do is to call God irrational and unjust. Now, that is blasphemous.
2. Not all suffering is punishment.
3. The idea that people can be punished for Adam’s sin is so so soooo wrong. It is a protestant notion. The church rejects it by saying that original sin is only personal to Adan and Eve. To the rest of us, it is not counted as a sin at all. It refers to the consequence of sin that is in us. This consequence is an absence of grace, not a sin that can be punished.Put differently, original sin is the punishment not the sin, for Adam and Eve. They lost grace. For us, it is just a consequence of being their offspring. It is neither a punishable sin for us nor the punishment for that sin.

God was not punishing Jesus on the cross when he was crucified. God is not unjust or so self-delusional and foolish not to know that Jesus did not commit any of the sin. God is truth and doesn’t have to trick himself into thinking that Jesus is a sinner so as to punish him on our behalf. God is not usually punishing perfected saints when he allows them to go through even more suffering than the biggest sinners on earth. For example, God was never punishing Mary when he allowed her to witness her child’s unjust suffering. Remember that neither Jesus nor Mary were ever touched by original sin.

1. When we experience undeserved suffering, we must not do these things:

a) automatically assume that it is a punishment
b) resist the suffering

Suffering is a consequence of the sin of Adam. God did not make us to live in a broken world he made it perfect and free of suffering. When Adam sinned, it broke and now suffering is a part of its existence. Babies suffer because babies are born into a broken world that has suffering as part of its landscape. Put differently, babies suffer because everyone suffers. Because they live here.

God being all knowing, seeing all possible futures, intervenes to apportion the suffering to all of us according to what he sees will lead to the best possible outcome for us. This is where trust comes in. Faith. We must believe that God is not leaving the world to its fate but his hand is directing even the brokenness in a way that will bring the best outcome for those who suffer and everyone else. For example, the best thing he did was to incarnate and convert the suffering of the world into a means of salvation! It is as if he said, since suffering has become part of their existence, I will make it my own and mix grace with it so that every instance of suffering carries with it greater grace for that person and the others.

Why doesn’t God just fix the world? I dont know. The bible tells us that God loved his creation. When the devil messed it up, like the thief who planted weeds in the gardener’s garden in one of Christ’s parables, God was simply unwilling to give up his beloved creation or his beloved garden. He did not want to rewrite everything because he would mess the world’s workings which are intertwined with freedom. Hedid not want to override the result of Adam’s free choices as that is part of this world. Anything else would be creating another world in place of this one. So he devised a way of saving the world without overriding the results of free will and keep the world the world of free will as well as saved. That is what he did in taking the consequences of sin filling the earth and transforming them into channels for grace without at the same time simply getting rid of them. That is how he defeated the devil in his own game which was to ruin God’s beloved creation.

Try to look at suffering as

a) a way for us to receive unimaginable grace into our lives. If it is thrust upon us especially, be sure that a great boon of grace is hidden somewhere there beyond our immediate vision. The devil’s work will be to make you miss it by rejecting it so you end up keeping all the suffering with none of the grace!

b) a way to bear the burdens of others. That is why, often, it seems that the holier the person is, the more suffering they can bear. Paul said it that he made up in his body for others what was missing in Christ’s suffering. This means that suffering for Christians is a way to take part in Christ’s work of redemption. When you suffer, not only should you embrace the grace that is in it for you, you should offer the suffering to God joining it with Jesus sacrifice for others especially those who are not able to do that themselves due to sin and ignorance or because they are in purgatory. in doing so you save people in your own flesh like Jesus.you are a true priest.

 

[TK421]

I have had numerous priest say that during the great trials of life it is ok and even somewhat necessary to vent our frustrations and anger to God. Yes to even get angry with Him. When would this natural stage of human grief/suffering turn into blaspheming God? I guess it’s hard for me to tell the difference. I will often confess I get too angry/mad at God when I feel I’ve gone too far in venting, but maybe that’s actually blasphemy? Don’t know. And be gentle I’m very scrupulous.

When you accuse God of sin, that is when you’ve committed blasphemy.

If you’re angry, confused, and upset, and aren’t sure what happens next, and you’re pouring it out or “venting” to God, that’s called prayer, or more specifically, petition. It is virtuous.

God is an inferno. He is capable of playing rough.

 

[Rubia]

The way I see it? Like I said above, the bible tells us that God simply loved his creation. When the devil messed it up, like the thief who planted weeds in the gardener’s garden at night in one of Christ’s parables, God was simply unwilling to give up his beloved creation. He did not want to reprogram everything because he would mess the world’s workings which are intertwined with freedom. He did not want to overwrite the result of Adam’s free choices as that freedom is an integral part of this world which is made for love and love comes from free will. Anything else would be creating another world in place of this one. But God loved this one and wanted to keep it!

So he devised a way of saving the world without overwriting the results of free will, keeping this world the world of free will as well as redeeming it. That is what he did in taking the consequences of sin filling the earth and transforming them into channels for grace without at the same time simply getting rid of them. He became a part of this world himself. I see that as a way for him to intervene without “breaking the rules.” To intervene in a manner consistent with love which is always free. To intervene without changing the programing of the world and so to keep it itself. So he becomes a part of it and fixes it from inside according to its own nature. Something the devil never foresaw him ever doing. He knew God could simply overwrite everything but never imagined God being so humble as to become so small and a true part of the world. That is how he defeated the devil in his own game which was to ruin God’s beloved creation.

 

[BobCatholic]

I think that your last sentence keys in to the whole point which I am making here:

“By saying people deserve their sufferings, it is tantamount to declaring people to be evil.”

Guess what? It is true.

So what you are saying is that God created evil, and God is the source of evil.

That is heresy.

Also, it disagrees with scripture:

Genesis 1:31 And God saw all the things that he had made, and they were very good. And the evening and morning were the sixth day.

 

[BobCatholic]

1. Not all suffering is punishment.

All suffering is punishment.

We got kicked out of the Garden of Eden because of a punishment, and all consequences are a result of that punishment, suffering being one of them.

1. The idea that people can be punished for Adam’s sin is so so soooo wrong. It is a protestant notion. The church rejects it by saying that original sin is only personal to Adan and Eve. To the rest of us, it is not counted as a sin at all.

If it is not a sin at all, why are we held temporally responsible for it? Of course, we’re not held spiritually responsible for it since Jesus Christ took care of that.

Isn’t this a violation of Deuteronomy 24? (The son shall not be punished for the sins of the father).

 

[Rubia]

All suffering is punishment.

This is simply false.

Listen to the words of Pope John Paul II

While it is true that suffering has a meaning as punishment, when it is connected with a fault, it is not true that all suffering is a consequence of a fault and has the nature of a punishment. The figure of the just man Job is a special proof of this in the Old Testament. (SD 11)

Read this CAF article on suffering based on reflections from Pope John Paul II’s encyclical: Salvific Doloris (on the Christian meaning of Human Suffering) from which the above quotation is derived here: catholic.com/magazine/articles/a-pope%E2%80%99s-answer-to-the-problem-of-pain

There is a great mystery to suffering and there’s many layers of meaning to it. Punishment is only one and it is not even the most important one. Not all suffering is punishment, I’m sorry.

We got kicked out of the Garden of Eden because of a punishment, and all consequences are a result of that punishment, suffering being one of them.

If it is not a sin at all, why are we held temporally responsible for it? Of course, we’re not held spiritually responsible for it since Jesus Christ took care of that.

You are mixing up the words punishment and consequences/results/fruits of sin. The two could not be more different.

We are not held responsible for original sin in the same manner we are held for our personal sins. We do suffer the consequences of that sin by experiencing its results in our fallen nature and living in a suffering world but that is not the same thing as “being held responsible” for it.

For example, if a driver of a car is careless and causes an accident, the other passengers are not “held responsible” for that action. They do however suffer the consequences of it. They are victims. There is no talk of punishment here when they go to the hospital but they experience the consequences of his actions. In the same way, we are all responsible for our own sins but not for any one else’s, not Adam’s or anyone’s. None of us however can escape the consequences of Adam’s sins because he was the designated driver. Others also are victims to the consequences of many of our own sins even though they did not commit them–we did. For example, if we destroy the environment, our children will suffer the consequences. That does not mean they are being held responsible for it.

The reason we suffer consequences of the sins of others is that we are made interconnected with each other. Eve came from Adam’s ribs and we all came from the two of them. We could not get a nature different from theirs without God having to begin creation afresh. It is part of our nature to be united to each other. We are not like angels who are each completely independent and each suffers the consequences of his sin strictly alone. Humans are one species. This same interconnection is what enables us to save each other too. Without it, the consequences for one man’s holiness (Jesus, grace) could not be shared to all the rest of us. It is God’s will that “man should not be alone”. That is why we experience the consequences of Adam’s sin. That is also why we experience the consequences of Christ’s holiness.

 

[Rubia]

Isn’t this a violation of Deuteronomy 24? (The son shall not be punished for the sins of the father).

God does not violate that verse. He doesn’t “punish” children for the sins of their parents. He does however permit them to suffer from the damage that their parents’ sins cause.

A careless and promiscous woman who catches HIV in the process and passes it on to her unborn child is alone guilty of her sin though her child will bear the consequences of it in his own body. The child will suffer from its mothers sins but God is not thereby holding it responsible for that sin of its parent. The child’s suffering is simply a consequence of its interconnection to its own mother. The fact that its existence is inseparable from hers in this world.

The story of Adam and Eve is exactly the same story as that of the promiscuous young mother, but it occurs long ago before all of us were born. His consequences, unlike those of the smoking, drinking, drug-abusing, or promiscuous young mother, simply affect MORE people. That is a function of his unique place as the original man and the source of humanity of all other men.

The loss of grace and expulsion from the original state (Eden) was a punishment ONLY to Adam and Eve. To their children, to us, we merely inherit the consequences of their sin because our existence is inseparable from theirs. We are born to them in their post-sin state as graceless and out-of-Eden, thus we suffer the same conditions as well. Yes, we do share in that graceless, out-of-Eden state but it is not a punishment for us as it was for Adam. For us, It is just suffering. Like the child born with AIDs or blind because his mother drank too much or did drugs Like children born poor because their father gambled away all of the wealth that he received from his own father.

We do experience PUNISHMENT when WE ourselves sin but not necessarily. We may be punished here or in the next world but only if we don’t repent. If we do, we are forgiven but this does not mean that we are then spared from the consequences of our sins. Example? We may still suffer from the rejection of our spouse and go through divorce even after we have repented of our adultery. God has forgiven the adultery the moment we repent. But he may not necessarily spare the person from its consequences. Those consequences also affect not just the adulterer but the innocent spouse and their children who may then grow up in a broken or dysfunctional home, just like we being born into and growing up in a broken world after Adam’s sin. They are not thereby being punished by God for their parents’ sin,and neither are we whenever we find ourselves suffering from some brokenness of this world.

Speaking of punishment and consequences as if they are interchangeable greatly obscures God’s mercy. God does not punish ANY innocent because God is just. It is both a lack of mercy and justice to punish an innocent. And God is most just and merciful. That does not mean that God spares innocents from suffering the consequences of the actions of the guilty. In so permitting, he is not “punishing” them. Like Christ’s parable, he is permitting the wheat and the tares to grow up together but he will make everything perfect once more in the end. Read revelations to find out what happens at the end of our story as the citizens of the broken world.

 

[Convert_in_99]

These are some really good posts! There is much to pray about and discern with. Thank you!

 

[dshix]

To Rubia:

As I said already, the subject of why man suffers the consequences of Original Sin is a subject for another thread. It is off topic for this thread and I ask that we not derail this thread.

And to be clear: I didn’t exactly say that God punishes man for the sins of his parents. But man DOES suffer the consequences of the sins of his parents. Those are two completely different things.

So what you are saying is that God created evil, and God is the source of evil.

That is heresy.

Also, it disagrees with scripture:

Genesis 1:31 And God saw all the things that he had made, and they were very good. And the evening and morning were the sixth day.

You put words into my mouth. Do not put words into my mouth, or else this is an utterly worthless discussion.

 

[Rubia]

I think finding a way to look at suffering from the perspective of God as loving father and a lover (of his creation) that wont give up is relevant because the person who started this thread is describing her attempts to deal with suffering without becoming blasphemous.

Anger at God has much to do with our perceptions about why he does or permits things. Part of healing involves changing the lens through which we scan the world and our own suffering. If someone believes they or their child are being punished for someone else’s sins, i should think that anger would be a natural response. God himself wires us to resist injustice. But if we look at suffering differently, it can help us deal with it better.

Being angry with God is a natural part of life because we believe he can end our suffering but for some reason does not. This is where trust comes in. I believe it is not only healthy but absolutely necessary for people of a certain psychological setting, to express EVERYTHING they feel inside in an honest and authentic manner before God. It is in this that they come to an understanding and acceptance of their own situation but also find authentic healing and not simply meaningless suffering. God works through it to help them and they find the grace hidden in the suffering. Later, many will come not only to accept their former suffering but to be completely grateful to God for all that happened to them.

 

[Convert_in_99]

Heh hum…guys and gals…enough fighting. If we can’t settle down I am going to have to have the thread locked.

Thanks so much Everone for their help and replies!

 

[BobCatholic]

This is simply false.

Listen to the words of Pope John Paul II

While it is true that suffering has a meaning as punishment, when it is connected with a fault,

Pay attention to the first part of that quote.

When it is CONNECTED WITH A FAULT, it is a punishment.

The fault is Adam’s sin. We are held temporally responsible for Adam’s sin.

We are not held responsible for original sin in the same manner we are held for our personal sins.

Of course not, Jesus Christ took care of the spiritual consequences. But not the temporal consequences (Romans 8:23)

We do suffer the consequences of that sin by experiencing its results in our fallen nature and living in a suffering world but that is not the same thing as “being held responsible” for it.

Since the “consequence” was a result of a punishment, the consequence itself is a punishment.

Without it, the consequences for one man’s holiness (Jesus, grace) could not be shared to all the rest of us. It is God’s will that “man should not be alone”. That is why we experience the consequences of Adam’s sin. That is also why we experience the consequences of Christ’s holiness.

However, read Romans 8:23, our bodies have not been redeemed yet. Jesus held that back, and that was his decision. He still holds us temporally responsible. This was his decision. It was an affirmative decision.

 

[BobCatholic]

God does not violate that verse. He doesn’t “punish” children for the sins of their parents. He does however permit them to suffer from the damage that their parents’ sins cause.

Then why are we not allowed back in the Garden of Eden? Answer: We are held temporally responsible. We are under the punishment.

The child will suffer from its mothers sins but God is not thereby holding it responsible for that sin of its parent.

The child is held temporally responsible. Not spiritually responsible, Jesus Christ took care of that. So what you say is partially true.

The loss of grace and expulsion from the original state (Eden) was a punishment ONLY to Adam and Eve.

Wrong. We also are expelled from the Garden of Eden.

To their children, to us, we merely inherit the consequences of their sin because our existence is inseparable from theirs.

Our existence is also inseparable from God’s…but for some reason he still holds us temporally responsible.

Speaking of punishment and consequences as if they are interchangeable greatly obscures God’s mercy.

Is God’s mercy only limited to the spiritual realm?

If no, then please tell me which airline operates flights to the Garden of Eden.

 

[cheezey]

God can withstand any amount of your anger, no matter how much of it you have you will not hurt Him. He can also see, feel, taste, smell, hear your anger with the sensations you know, every other sensation you can imagine, and an infinite number that are beyond your imagination. You cannot hide your anger from God even if you are completely successful at lying to yourself about it.

In the end, you might as well express all of your anger to God and see if you get an answer back. I think most of the time you will sooner or later, and often it’s sooner. The answer will not come as an angry blast right back at you, but will usually be soft and reasonable, and you will know it to be the truth. It may not be what you want to hear, but it will be the truth even if it seems like something that simply has to be wrong. Even if you rage at God that He does not love you, that he hates you and that He might a profound mistake in creating you, he will come back and softly tell you that what you said is not true. You may pout at Him and call Him a liar, but he will tell you that that is not true either.

If there is a sin here, it isn’t so much in the rage, anger, or even hatred, but in the willful stubbornness with which one might hold on to it.

Why are we stubborn? I don’t know, but we just are, and I think that is what we need to ponder and work on rather than the anger.

Anyway, that’s how I see it.

I like this…

When you accuse God of sin, that is when you’ve committed blasphemy.

If you’re angry, confused, and upset, and aren’t sure what happens next, and you’re pouring it out or “venting” to God, that’s called prayer, or more specifically, petition. It is virtuous.

God is an inferno. He is capable of playing rough.

This, too.

 

[Tridentine_MT]

I would have to disagree that it’s never permissible to be angry at God. Anger is a natural, normal part of the human experience, and sometimes it is through that anger that we come to a deeper understanding of how God is working in our lives–even if we don’t like it necessarily.

I would also point to passages in Scripture that indicate anger or exasperation with God. Psalms 13, 22 (quoted from the Cross by Jesus), 35, and 42 all indicate certain intense emotions, even directed toward God, in times of great distress. The entire book of Habakkuk as well is of this general tone.

Where the line is crossed is when we allow the anger to consume us and to begin to blot out our vision of God and our love for him; in short, to harden our hearts against God. We are often angry at people we love, and this anger is not wrong of itself–anger is an emotion, and a normal reaction to things that don’t necessarily go our way, whether this is a just attitude to have or not. Where that kind of anger becomes sinful is when we let it kill our relationships with others. Why should it be different with God? Perhaps our anger toward him in times of crisis would actually lead us closer to him–perhaps it would lead to a moment of conversion; it’s never pleasant to be angry, and in realizing this, we could maybe come to the point where we’d realize that God is right. Or perhaps we’ve misunderstood him. Thus the anger is resolved and so is the tension that leads to it. It’s a complex question, and one which is not lightly dismissed.

-ACEGC

Passing through difficult times, this family will surely find your post useful.

pro-tridentina-malta.blogspot.com.mt/2015/03/call-to-prayer-for-maltese-family.html