Where is the "Worship" in Non denominational Services

[descout]

After attending non denominational services I have found that I have a hard time finding the “Worship” part of the service.

Immediately when I walk into the place I find no quiet peaceful place to focus on God. Everything is loud and bands warming up and people talking and walking everywhere. Which is ironic because later in the lecture the pastor was “dogging” on people and how they never have quiet time anymore, always have a radio or noise around. Then goes on to further say the God speaks in the quiet times.

Then it goes into loud songs, yes the songs are inspirational and I do like the message of the songs. The only thing is that there seems to be little to focus on other than a screen projector and the “concert” that is playing on the “stage”. So the words somewhat get me focused but my eyes search for at least a cross to help put visual meaning to the words.

It seems then there is very little read from the Bible. Followed by alot of interpretation and personal thought.

What is the difference here between prayer and worship? There are a few prayers throughout the service but prayer and worship are different things. Where is the worship part? My girlfriend is ND and has a hard time answering my questions so I am looking elsewhere for some answers.

 

[missB]

Hi, I’ve experienced similar things when I’ve attended ND churches. It’s been my experience that most of these churches don’t offer much in the way of theology. I think if you were to ask 10 people out of the congregation they’d all have a different definition of worship. I’ve noticed the lack of Bible reading as well. I think this could be due to the fact that there could be multiple ways of interpretting Scripture. I’ve also observed little in the way of prayerful silence. Most ND churches do have good music. I haven’t heard of displaying a cross in these churches. Again, this could be a touchy matter, some might aprove, others not.

 

[SalesianSDB]

It seems then there is very little read from the Bible. Followed by alot of interpretation and personal thought.

Have you ever heard of Calvary Chapel? They call themselves a non-denominational church movement. What this means is that they have churches all around the country. They were founded in the 60’s by a man named Pastor Chuck Smith. He was surprised one day when his daughter brought home a real life hippie! He was fascinated. He talked to the hippie (who was also a Christian) for hours. Pastor Chuck then realized that there was an evangelization gap for hippies. No one was preaching to hippies! Churches didn’t allow them. He changed that. So he started Calvary Chapel and preached in the beaches of Southern California and his hippie partner preached in high schools. They won many souls like this.

Now you might be thinking, it was started in the 60’s and as a ministry to hippies, must be pretty liberal. Nothing could be further from the truth. What they teach is pretty orthodox and mainstream. They don’t teach anything that would be considered liberal by Protestant (or Catholic for that matter) standards.

Anyways, to your point on scripture reading. Yes it is true that many pastors, such as Joel Osteen do what is called “Topic Messages” in which they choose a topic and preach about it incorporating different scripture passages.

But Calvary Chapel is the opposite. What Pastor Chuck wanted to do was go through from Genesis to Revelation. Each Sunday he would preach on a different chapter in the Bible, going in order from start to finish from that specific book. All Calvary Chapel churches follow this format. They each go through a book of the Bible at a time. So for example they will go through Ephesians from start to finish and then start Philipians for example. Sometimes they will do a whole chapter in one sermon, or split up the chapter into various Sundays so they could concentrate on specific passages from that chapter that are considered important and deserving of their own sermon (for example I once heard a pastor give a 45 minute sermon on James 1: 2-6).

I heard a Catholic blogger say that the Catholic Church is the most scriptural Christian church out there (in terms of using the Bible in the Mass) and that Calvary Chapel churches came in second.

Their worship comes primarily through the music and prayers. Many, if not all, Protestants consider prayer worship. And to them their worship is the music they play before the sermon. The music they play they sing to God and lift up their hearts in song.

the words somewhat get me focused

They place the lyrics on the screen or wall not to have something your eyes can focus to but so that you know the lyrics of the song so that you could sing and worship along. What good would the worship music be if it was just the worship band (that’s what they are called) is the only one sining and everyone else just watches them. They want you to know the lyrics so that you could praise God and worship Him with them.

but my eyes search for at least a cross to help put visual meaning to the words.

If you look at the Protestant numbering of the 10 Commandments you will see that number 2 is “You shall make no graven images” (they combine our 9 & 10 to make the 10th Commandment). We have this as part of the 1st. I’m assuming (again, just a thought, I could be, and probably am, wrong) that they don’t want a cross up their because if your praising and worshiping and looking at that cross they might see it was the whole graven image thing. Though there are MANY churches (again most) that do have a cross above their alter/stage.

I hope I answered your question. One of my best friends is Baptist and I have fun talking to her about these sort of things. I’m sorry if it sounded like I was doing an advertisement for Calvary Chapel, but I thought of them when you mentioned not a lot of Scripture.

If you want more information on non-denominational churches just ask. While I am a strong Catholic, for some reason I love listening to the sermons of these Pastors (they don’t play Fr. Corapi enough on EWTN and sometimes the 15 minute homily my priest gives isn’t enough for me). Look up especially Pastor Greg Laurie (pastor of Harvest Christian Fellowship, one of the first Calvary Chapel churches) and Dr. James MacDonald. While they are non-denominational and not Catholic, much of what they preach is scripture study and such and very informative for us Catholics as well.

These links should be informative to what you are looking for and your questions.
www.harvest.org
youtube.com/watch?v=ff5o8yRmPHc (pastor Greg’s first sermon after the sudden loss of his son)
www.walkintheword.org
calvarychapel.com/

 

[JRRTFAN]

My wife and kids are ND Christians and I have attended several of their churches hundreds of times over the last 16 or 17 years. None of what I report should be considered derogatory, simply fact. We have the same problem. On can never forget the clown mass used when my formerly Catholic son received his first holy communion in 1986.

The general flow of the services is the same across all the ND churches of which they have been members, except when the service is spiced it up with an African or Russian motif or some such.

The band and the singers are the central focus, sometimes marvelous “Celine Dion would have to audition to be in this group”, sometimes horrid “All the music today was written by our worship leader, Oscar Hammerstein” (Don’t quit your day job). The music may be supplemented with laser light shows, background noises, bells, canons, typewriters, jungle noises (I was even at one where they fired confetti canons out over the congregation) you name it.

The congregant enters, often with coffee and donut in hand, chatting loudly with his fellows. Then the “worship leader” (with guitar) welcomes everyone and calls them to order: “Thank you for bringing the church into this room” (Why he has to thank people for coming to church one cannot determine.). Then “Let’s stand and worship God for who He is and what He has done.”

Generally 4 to 6 rather loud modern songs ensue, Sometimes a soloist will entertain. Then everyone is seated and the worship leader says: “Let me pray for Pastor Blank.” He then prays a sermon in a prayer preparing the congregants for the “message” that Pastor Blank (the senior or preaching pastor) will deliver.

Pastor Blank then enters, bible thoughtfully in hand. His dress ranges from an Armani suit to a rumpled dress shirt with rolled up sleeves. He will start with “In this series we have been…” They all preach a series: 8 steps to a better family, 4 lessons when toubles asail you, how to be a better husband, wife, kid, citizen.

Pastor Blank will generally read from the bible (nearly always New Testament), I’ve heard as few as 3 or 4 words as much as 4 or 5 verses spun into a 30 minute sermon. Often Pastor Blank will stop mid sentence to explain what a word means in Greek: “That’s in the aorist tense and means…” (I’ve been to social events with some of these Greek experts, try this at the next pot luck: Put your keys on the table and say “Pastor Bob, i’ve been meaning to ask you, in Greek how would you say my “4 keys are on the brown round table in the social hall?”” It’s great fun.)

Then Pastor Blank says: “Let me pray for us.” and prays another sermon in a prayer reinforcing what he just talked about and telling God what He has delivered through Pastor Blank.

The band then comes back on stage for a final song and more lights. Then the worship leader announces “You are dismissed” and everybody goes to the coffee shop in the lobby. About an hour and 15 minutes will have passed.

And that is a ND worship service. My daughter used to go to one that was in a YMCA gym. They actually sat at tables and would eat from the crock pot buffet WHILE the service was in process.

I personally find it rather lacking but more often than not the music is good, the singers are pretty and can often dance very well if the music has the right beat. Probably 35 to 55% of the assembly will be former Catholics and when the worship leader delivers the benediction (if he can bring himself to make a sign of the cross over the congregation) will make the sign of the cross themselves.

I never missed Mass to go to one of these services and quit goiing completely about 7 years ago when a junior pastor had a sermon where he read “The Burning of William Hunter” from Foxe’s Book of Martyrs and went on to compare the middle age Catholic Bishops to the current crop of Catholic Bishops and the sex abuse situation.

Everybody should go once just to see what it’s like.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The ND Church have powerful motivational speakers (preachers) and inspiring music with a scripture read and thundering sermons which has a health and wealth instruction (teaching) attached.

Once the individual has been entertained in live music sets the stage to recieve what follows in the preaching. The celebration with music and motivational preaching helps the individual dig deep into ones emotions. As you stated, where is the worship?

The motivational speakers and music stirs one’s emotions and are lead to believe that they are experiencing the presence of God. Thus worship service.

There is much more to reveal here between one’s emotions, a celebrated dance with music and a teaching from scipture to be labeled as “worship”.

There exists a difference between celebrating God’s forgiveness with song and dance and fellowship and experiencing God’s True presence.

The presence of God is not our emotions, our emotions (of joy) are the end result. Moses found the presence of God in the burning bush not from his emotions. Elijah found God’s presence in the whispering wind outside of Elijah’s presence.

Jesus said “This is my body”…“This is my blood”. Catholics experience the True presence of God in our midst in the silence, the Word of God heard, and the Sacramental True presence of Jesus body, blood, soul and divinity.

There are truly two distincts understandings of worship between ND experiencing God’s presence (emotionally) which is labeled “in the spirit”, and a Catholic faith based worship which is the (Holy) Spirit and Truth (Jesus) presence, It is through Christ body, and blood true presence that we are able to Worship the Father in heaven in Spirit and Truth.

Peace be with you

 

[rick43235]

Although my experience with non-denominational churches is very limited, I found myself sitting in a ND congregation recently. I have to admit that they put on a good show, and the food court puts our after-mass coffee and donuts to shame. However, having been raised in the Lutheran Church and after attending mass with my Catholic wife for several years, my ND experience didn’t really feel like “church.” That said, I bet someone who had been raised in a ND church would come away from a Catholic mass feeling pretty empty.

 

[wmscott]

My wife and kids are ND Christians and I have attended several of their churches hundreds of times over the last 16 or 17 years. None of what I report should be considered derogatory, simply fact. We have the same problem. On can never forget the clown mass used when my formerly Catholic son received his first holy communion in 1986.

The general flow of the services is the same across all the ND churches of which they have been members, except when the service is spiced it up with an African or Russian motif or some such.

The band and the singers are the central focus, sometimes marvelous “Celine Dion would have to audition to be in this group”, sometimes horrid “All the music today was written by our worship leader, Oscar Hammerstein” (Don’t quit your day job). The music may be supplemented with laser light shows, background noises, bells, canons, typewriters, jungle noises (I was even at one where they fired confetti canons out over the congregation) you name it.

The congregant enters, often with coffee and donut in hand, chatting loudly with his fellows. Then the “worship leader” (with guitar) welcomes everyone and calls them to order: “Thank you for bringing the church into this room” (Why he has to thank people for coming to church one cannot determine.). Then “Let’s stand and worship God for who He is and what He has done.”

Generally 4 to 6 rather loud modern songs ensue, Sometimes a soloist will entertain. Then everyone is seated and the worship leader says: “Let me pray for Pastor Blank.” He then prays a sermon in a prayer preparing the congregants for the “message” that Pastor Blank (the senior or preaching pastor) will deliver.

Pastor Blank then enters, bible thoughtfully in hand. His dress ranges from an Armani suit to a rumpled dress shirt with rolled up sleeves. He will start with “In this series we have been…” They all preach a series: 8 steps to a better family, 4 lessons when toubles asail you, how to be a better husband, wife, kid, citizen.

Pastor Blank will generally read from the bible (nearly always New Testament), I’ve heard as few as 3 or 4 words as much as 4 or 5 verses spun into a 30 minute sermon. Often Pastor Blank will stop mid sentence to explain what a word means in Greek: “That’s in the aorist tense and means…” (I’ve been to social events with some of these Greek experts, try this at the next pot luck: Put your keys on the table and say “Pastor Bob, i’ve been meaning to ask you, in Greek how would you say my “4 keys are on the brown round table in the social hall?”” It’s great fun.)

Then Pastor Blank says: “Let me pray for us.” and prays another sermon in a prayer reinforcing what he just talked about and telling God what He has delivered through Pastor Blank.

The band then comes back on stage for a final song and more lights. Then the worship leader announces “You are dismissed” and everybody goes to the coffee shop in the lobby. About an hour and 15 minutes will have passed.

And that is a ND worship service. My daughter used to go to one that was in a YMCA gym. They actually sat at tables and would eat from the crock pot buffet WHILE the service was in process.

I personally find it rather lacking but more often than not the music is good, the singers are pretty and can often dance very well if the music has the right beat. Probably 35 to 55% of the assembly will be former Catholics and when the worship leader delivers the benediction (if he can bring himself to make a sign of the cross over the congregation) will make the sign of the cross themselves.

I never missed Mass to go to one of these services and quit goiing completely about 7 years ago when a junior pastor had a sermon where he read “The Burning of William Hunter” from Foxe’s Book of Martyrs and went on to compare the middle age Catholic Bishops to the current crop of Catholic Bishops and the sex abuse situation.

Everybody should go once just to see what it’s like.

So much for approaching the throne of God.

 

[JRRTFAN]

So much for approaching the throne of God.

Hey, like I say, the singers are generally pretty and some of them can dance. It’s a great show.

I will say this, with respect to the, so called, contemporary chorale at my parish, at least the Evangelicals know how to play a darn guitar and drums. Our folks play them all like the aging hippies they are.

 

[wmscott]

Hey, like I say, the singers are generally pretty and some of them can dance. It’s a great show.

I will say this, with respect to the, so called, contemporary chorale at my parish, at least the Evangelicals know how to play a darn guitar and drums. Our folks play them all like the aging hippies they are.

I guess my problem is I can’t dance, sing, and play an instrument, draw, or anything artistic. Plus the donuts do nothing to help with my spare tire. Sad, truly sad.

On a serious note though, one of the things that lead me to the Catholic Church was the reverence of the Mass “approaching the throne of God” so to speak. Being a military brat and then 20 years in the Navy myself, I am a fan of good order and discipline. I like ceremony and the pomp and circumstance stuff. Not to mention that it is totally reverent and holy on top of it all.

 

[Contarini]

They place the lyrics on the screen or wall not to have something your eyes can focus to but so that you know the lyrics of the song so that you could sing and worship along. What good would the worship music be if it was just the worship band (that’s what they are called) is the only one sining and everyone else just watches them. They want you to know the lyrics so that you could praise God and worship Him with them.

If you look at the Protestant numbering of the 10 Commandments you will see that number 2 is “You shall make no graven images” (they combine our 9 & 10 to make the 10th Commandment). We have this as part of the 1st. I’m assuming (again, just a thought, I could be, and probably am, wrong) that they don’t want a cross up their because if your praising and worshiping and looking at that cross they might see it was the whole graven image thing. Though there are MANY churches (again most) that do have a cross above their alter/stage.

One of my students once remarked that she wondered why people in her church were so opposed to having a cross, but never worried about worshiping the projector screen!

I was delighted, of course

Edwin

 

[justamoose89]

I will say this, with respect to the, so called, contemporary chorale at my parish, at least the Evangelicals know how to play a darn guitar and drums. Our folks play them all like the aging hippies they are.

ahh. so you’ve been to my church?

 

[AmateurPianist]

Psalm 150

1 Praise the LORD.
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens.

2 Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.

3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,

4 praise him with tambourine and dancing,
praise him with the strings and flute,

5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.

6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.
Praise the LORD.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Psalm 150

And after we give praise to God in everything including song and dance, when does the worship of Spirit and Truth (John4:20-24) begin in his “True” presence?

When do we “be still and know that IAM God”? (Psalm 46:10) before we get to Psalm 150:shrug:

 

[jrose90]

I’ve only been to a few ND services, but like someone already stated, they are basically the same across the board.
-a very very charismatic preacher/pastor (typically with the slightly southern accent) who opens the service by thanking you for coming and hopes that his message blesses you
-a HUMONGOUS audience (sorry if I should have referred to them as a congregation, but I always felt like I was at a movie or concert, never at a church service)
-a rock band
-a projection screen
-inspirational music
-offeratory (sp?)
-a passage from Proverbs and the opinion of the preacher on how to be a better follower of Christ (and tune in next week for the follow-up: How to Be a Better Wife/Husband/Mother/Father/Child—as very rightly said by a previous poster)
-a plug for the weekly church activity (an ND church near me recently hosted an indoor rodeo. I wish this was an exaggeration. sadly, it’s true.)
-a very inspirational benediction.

some would consider the music/band/songs worship. but I find the self-improvement/how-to classes to be a business rather than a type of worship. the scripture is usually about God’s forgiving grace (which most certainly should be talked about) but very rarely about Hell or any consequences of sin, which is the more pressing matter, in my eyes at least.

 

[WholeHeart]

Well, my current church is a very small non-denominational one (It seems like every time I change geographical areas I end up in a different kind of church). Our music isn’t very good (I can say that; I’m the pianist), but we praise God as best we can (most don’t read music, and I’m far from an experienced musician). We only use a screen if there’s a reason to show a video; to sing we have hymn books. We have a large, simply decorated cross at the front of the sanctuary. Everyone who can participates in the service somehow; the children help take up the offering, the men carry the communion plates down the aisles, and both women and men take a turn reading announcements and leading the singing. We do have “special” music sometimes, which is most frequently the smallest children sharing a song they’ve learned in Sunday school.

I suppose you could say that it is worship to serve in what way we can. I think there are different types of non-denominational churches; what’s described in other posts doesn’t bear much resemblance to my experience. Mine appears quite informal at first glance, though we do have a very predictable form to the service, with many words that are always said, a certain song sung at a certain place every week, etc. The pastor (who is quite elderly) has been known to forget to take up the offering, though! (The congregation respectfully reminded him on those occasions.)

Now, considering myself a non-denominational Christian, I am comfortable in many different types of churches. Not all non-denominational Christians go to a non-denominational church or even identify with one.

I’ve also heard of something called an inter-denominational church, but I don’t know what is meant by that.

 

[WholeHeart]

the scripture is usually about God’s forgiving grace (which most certainly should be talked about) but very rarely about Hell or any consequences of sin, which is the more pressing matter, in my eyes at least.

Oh, my pastor preaches Hell! He also gives quite the graphic retelling of the Crucifixion.

 

[Justin1982]

I have grown to appreciate the reverence of the Catholic mass and especially the Latin mass. I think that the reverence shown toward God is no more apparent than in a Latin mass, there is no fancy singing or guitars playing. There is only the priest and the parish all facing God in a beautiful showing of praise and thanksgiving to what God has given us in this world and very much in line with what Jesus has taught us as far as how to worship God. No offense, but everything else to me seems like only materialistic and entertainment for the mind.

 

[AmateurPianist]

And after we give praise to God in everything including song and dance, when does the worship of Spirit and Truth (John4:20-24) begin in his “True” presence?

When do we “be still and know that IAM God”? (Psalm 46:10) before we get to Psalm 150:shrug:

Just quoting Scripture.

If you don’t like the way the church up the road does worship, then don’t go to it. Go to a church that floats your own boat.

Same thing in reverse btw from us to you.

Why says that just because the church up the road does things differently than you that they don’t worship in Spirit and Truth while you do? Isn’t that the height of arrogance to assume we got worship right and the other guys in the other church don’t?

Didn’t the Lord Jesus Christ tell us all to remove the logs from our own eyes before nitpicking about the specks in our brothers eyes. I think this applies to churches.

This is all just arrogance, which seems to be a by product of assuming “We and only we are the one true church”. I guess I understand. I too would be subject to arrogance if I assumed my organization has a uniquely favoured status in the eyes of God.

 

[JRRTFAN]

Just quoting Scripture.

If you don’t like the way the church up the road does worship, then don’t go to it. Go to a church that floats your own boat.

You’ve hit the nail on the head! I’d say go to the Church Christ founded rather than the one that floats your boat. It’s not an issue of your boat it’s an issue of Peter’s barque.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Just quoting Scripture.

If you don’t like the way the church up the road does worship, then don’t go to it. Go to a church that floats your own boat.