Where is the "Worship" in Non denominational Services

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Why says that just because the church up the road does things differently than you that they don’t worship in Spirit and Truth while you do? Isn’t that the height of arrogance to assume we got worship right and the other guys in the other church don’t?
well said, but please understand that Catholics must reserve for themselves the right to define what is and what isn’t worship, otherwise they would be vulnerable to the charge that they worship Mary. If they control that definition then they can’t be guilty of worshipping Mary and also their church retains the claim of possessing the best, most valid worship…cuz worship then can simply be defined to achieve the required result.
This is all just arrogance, which seems to be a by product of assuming “We and only we are the one true church”.
BINGO!
 
I’ve been to many different worship services…and some of them did not put me in a worshipful mood…but if the truth be told…perhaps it was I who wasn’t preparing to meet the Lord in those services.

For those who can’t find the “worship” in “worship services”…you may be looking in the wrong place…you might want to look deep inside yourself and prepare to worship in a different setting…instead of waiting for the “worship” to “come to you” you bring the “worship” to the service you’re attending…it’s worked for me.🙂

Just a thought.
 
well said, but please understand that Catholics must reserve for themselves the right to define what is and what isn’t worship, otherwise they would be vulnerable to the charge that they worship Mary. If they control that definition then they can’t be guilty of worshipping Mary and also their church retains the claim of possessing the best, most valid worship…cuz worship then can simply be defined to achieve the required result.

BINGO!
Here we go! Off to the Mary worship races! Don’t it make your brown eyes blue? As a 57 year old papish papist I have yet to hear any Mary worship but, hey, I’m all ears. Anybody who postulates same is ignorant. Ignorant means one is unschooled. Perhaps Radical could post a church bulletin, they’re all online, with a calendar that says; Mary worship 7:00 p.m Thursday?
 
Although my experience with non-denominational churches is very limited, I found myself sitting in a ND congregation recently. I have to admit that they put on a good show, and the food court puts our after-mass coffee and donuts to shame. However, having been raised in the Lutheran Church and after attending mass with my Catholic wife for several years, my ND experience didn’t really feel like “church.” That said, I bet someone who had been raised in a ND church would come away from a Catholic mass feeling pretty empty.
One of the words jumped out at me while reading this post…that word was ‘show’. I have been to ND services as before too and as much as I hate to say but I felt I was like at the mall. I don’t mind upbeats songs now and then but when I’m in church I want to know I’m in church, sometimes I felt so out place with all these extroverted, ‘cool’ people sing and mingling with their coffee cups in hand,
 
In the Old Testament worship was sacrifice. In pagan religions worship was sacrifice. From of old there was no worship without sacrifice, and it remains the same today in the Catholic and Orthodox churches. Our sacrifice is united to the eternal sacrifice of Jesus Christ as He taught us by offering up the Eucharist.

I heard recently that biggest thing that Luther did to split the church was to deny that the Mass is a sacrifice, and that the idea of sacrificial worship has been lost in Christian communities. For awhile that idea seemed to be waning the Catholic Church, but I think our Bishops are leading us back to the true teaching of what the Mass is and does.
 
Here we go! Off to the Mary worship races! Don’t it make your brown eyes blue? As a 57 year old papish papist I have yet to hear any Mary worship but, hey, I’m all ears. Anybody who postulates same is ignorant. Ignorant means one is unschooled. Perhaps Radical could post a church bulletin, they’re all online, with a calendar that says; Mary worship 7:00 p.m Thursday?
Awww, don’t go getting your 57 year-old knickers in a knot. I didn’t say Catholics worship Mary. I am saying, however, that wrt that matter, the Catholic will say, “This is what constitutes worship, and so I don’t worship Mary.” As for this thread, again (some of) the Catholics here are saying, “This is what constitutes worship, and so the NDs don’t actually have worship in their services”.

As AmateurPianist has pointed out, what is involved is an arrogance that Catholics have gotten worship (and dulia/hyperdulia) right and the other guys have gotten it wrong. What needs to be done (for all of us ignorant slobs) is for you to show God’s definition of what is and what isn’t worship…Was AmateurPianist on to something by referencing Psalms 150? Do that and maybe the OPster will have his answer…

…oh, if I checked those bulletins, would I find “hyperdulia re Mary, 7:00 p.m. Thursday”…kinda curious.
 
OP here: I am aware of pslam 150 and would bet that song is and could go on while the worship is taking place. Look in the old testament, you see all the worship is focused around a sacrifice. Songs and such are there to possible accompany it but a sacrifice is the pattern that was set in the Bible by God himself. So when I go to these ND services I dont see the same pattern that is brought out in the Bible. Yet these ND chruches proclaim all around that they are the true Bible Church in Acts 2. That they only reference the Bible as there source of worship. So I was just simply wondering where did the worship from sacrifice go, the worship that is repeated over and over in the Bible.
 
OP here: I am aware of pslam 150 and would bet that song is and could go on while the worship is taking place. Look in the old testament, you see all the worship is focused around a sacrifice. Songs and such are there to possible accompany it but a sacrifice is the pattern that was set in the Bible by God himself. So when I go to these ND services I dont see the same pattern that is brought out in the Bible. Yet these ND chruches proclaim all around that they are the true Bible Church in Acts 2. That they only reference the Bible as there source of worship. So I was just simply wondering where did the worship from sacrifice go, the worship that is repeated over and over in the Bible.
I had heard that Christian worship was modeled after Luke 24:13-33. Sorry I can’t cite a source on this.

Anybody else agree/disagree?
 
One of the words jumped out at me while reading this post…that word was ‘show’. I have been to ND services as before too and as much as I hate to say but I felt I was like at the mall. I don’t mind upbeats songs now and then but when I’m in church I want to know I’m in church, sometimes I felt so out place with all these extroverted, ‘cool’ people sing and mingling with their coffee cups in hand,
I am forced to agree here. One of my biggest problems with mainstream evangelicalism (ND or otherwise) is that the element of worship seems to have been shunted aside in favor of entertainment and comfort.

I am really concerned at times that many churches have reduced worship to a sing-a-long and a lecture. I thought we as Christians were supposed to be countercultural yet it seems to me in our worship we are swallowing modern culture hook, line, and sinker.

George Everson
 
I am forced to agree here. One of my biggest problems with mainstream evangelicalism (ND or otherwise) is that the element of worship seems to have been shunted aside in favor of entertainment and comfort.

I am really concerned at times that many churches have reduced worship to a sing-a-long and a lecture. I thought we as Christians were supposed to be countercultural yet it seems to me in our worship we are swallowing modern culture hook, line, and sinker.

George Everson
I would say for Catholics, the answer is the past is the wave of the future.
 
I had heard that Christian worship was modeled after Luke 24:13-33. Sorry I can’t cite a source on this.

Anybody else agree/disagree?
I would say Luke 22: 19-20 would be a better example of what Christ said about worship. Then further to back it up you have St. Paul explaining to the Corinthians about how they should par take in the Lords Supper in 1 Corinthians 11:23-29. It shows here that the Corinthians were par taking in a Lords Supper at different feasts and holidays and that they were doing so in an “unworthy manner” and that they needed to correct their ways. This should tell us that Paul understood what Jesus said at the Last Supper and that it was not to take lightly and that this must be done in rememberance of Him just like Christ stated at the Last Supper.
 
Just to give the other side (and I am NOT saying I agree) I have often heard people who go to ND churches say things like this: “Where is the worship in the Catholic Mass? All those rituals and memorized prayers, it’s all so stilted. They look like robots. Here, we really let the Holy Spirit move us. We raise our hands and clap, showing our joy for God. We don’t do communion once a week, because then it would be less special, that’s why we reserve it for once a month. Worship shouldn’t be rote, it should be spontaneous and happy. We’re seeker-friendly, so we don’t want anyone to feel like they have to do something they don’t understand. Catholics [and Lutherans] are just going through the motions. That’s not for us. We want an authentic, relevant church.” (I’m paraphrasing a bunch of comments I’ve heard over the years.)

To nondenominational Protestants, “worship” often means praising God in their minds while singing music. They feel that they are more happy, joyful and expressive than more liturgical churches. In some cases, they are former Catholics. The worship feels very authentic and freeing to them.

As for me, after attending ND churches for years, I now get teary-eyed going to a Catholic mass, and feel empty and passive going to an ND service. (I’m currently attending both, long story, see my “religion” descriptor.)
 
I am aware of pslam 150 and would bet that song is and could go on while the worship is taking place. Look in the old testament, you see all the worship is focused around a sacrifice.
where in the world do you get the “all” idea from? or are your referring to the same sacrifices about which David said: **You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. **

if so, why is it that you think that the NDs are not presenting the sacrifices of a broken spirit or a broken and contrite heart?

I also wonder what you think went on when there was no temple for a sacrifice? did worship stop during that period?
. Yet these ND chruches proclaim all around that they are the true Bible Church in Acts 2. That they only reference the Bible as there source of worship. So I was just simply wondering where did the worship from sacrifice go, the worship that is repeated over and over in the Bible.
are you familiar with Paul’s description of the gathering of the faithful? It went like this:

When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. If anyone speaks in a tongue, two–or at the most three–should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God. Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets

some NDs try to follow that description, others take the position that the gifts of prophecy and tongues have ceased and so they try to follow that example absent of the contributions of those gifts…few, if any, of the NDs would connect Paul’s description to a liturgical format.
Then further to back it up you have St. Paul explaining to the Corinthians about how they should par take in the Lords Supper in 1 Corinthians 11:23-29. It shows here that the Corinthians were par taking in a Lords Supper at different feasts and holidays and that they were doing so in an “unworthy manner” and that they needed to correct their ways. This should tell us that Paul understood what Jesus said at the Last Supper and that it was not to take lightly and that this must be done in rememberance of Him just like Christ stated at the Last Supper.
yes, it seems that the Corinthians met regularly to share an actual meal where the Lord’s supper formed a part of the meal. Most NDs would recognize that meeting in a house in order to share a meal with all the members of the local congregation (as seems to have been the practice of the early Corinthians) is no longer practical given the size of the congregations…and returning to scripture’s declaration that “the sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart”, they would believe that it is substance and not form that matters.
This should tell us that Paul understood what Jesus said at the Last Supper and that it was not to take lightly and that this must be done in rememberance of Him just like Christ stated at the Last Supper.
right, but it doesn’t say that it is to be done daily or weekly and it most certainly doesn’t say that it is to be done in a liturgical format…and it doesn’t say that it is to be the centre of the congregation’s worship.
 
Just to give the other side (and I am NOT saying I agree) I have often heard people who go to ND churches say things like this: “Where is the worship in the Catholic Mass? All those rituals and memorized prayers, it’s all so stilted. They look like robots. Here, we really let the Holy Spirit move us. We raise our hands and clap, showing our joy for God. We don’t do communion once a week, because then it would be less special, that’s why we reserve it for once a month. Worship shouldn’t be rote, it should be spontaneous and happy. We’re seeker-friendly, so we don’t want anyone to feel like they have to do something they don’t understand. Catholics [and Lutherans] are just going through the motions. That’s not for us. We want an authentic, relevant church.” (I’m paraphrasing a bunch of comments I’ve heard over the years.)

To nondenominational Protestants, “worship” often means praising God in their minds while singing music. They feel that they are more happy, joyful and expressive than more liturgical churches. In some cases, they are former Catholics. The worship feels very authentic and freeing to them.
IMHO this is a solid assessment. I think it is also worth noting that the ND congregations will often ask themselves whether they could be improving on what they do for their worship services. Personally, I do not know why anyone would think that the modern male would want to spend about 40 minutes publicly singing “love songs” to Jesus…I would estimate that about 75% of the men disengage as the worship team leads the congregation in singing.
 
Just to give the other side (and I am NOT saying I agree) I have often heard people who go to ND churches say things like this: “Where is the worship in the Catholic Mass? All those rituals and memorized prayers, it’s all so stilted. They look like robots. Here, we really let the Holy Spirit move us. We raise our hands and clap, showing our joy for God. We don’t do communion once a week, because then it would be less special, that’s why we reserve it for once a month. Worship shouldn’t be rote, it should be spontaneous and happy. We’re seeker-friendly, so we don’t want anyone to feel like they have to do something they don’t understand. Catholics [and Lutherans] are just going through the motions. That’s not for us. We want an authentic, relevant church.” (I’m paraphrasing a bunch of comments I’ve heard over the years.)

To nondenominational Protestants, “worship” often means praising God in their minds while singing music. They feel that they are more happy, joyful and expressive than more liturgical churches. In some cases, they are former Catholics. The worship feels very authentic and freeing to them.

As for me, after attending ND churches for years, I now get teary-eyed going to a Catholic mass, and feel empty and passive going to an ND service. (I’m currently attending both, long story, see my “religion” descriptor.)
This is just my take on this assessment …My Christian identity growing up was Southern Baptist, luke warm at best. I have been to ND and Pentecostal services here and there, and then lived in a spiritual wasteland for seven years. One of the things that struck me when I married a great Catholic lady, was that Mass was about approaching the throne of God. It was not stilted, I did not see robots, and Catholics worshiping at the throne of God is anything but rote. Some Protestants have this “need” to have this personal relationship with Jesus, my Lord how much more can a person have a personal relationship with Jesus than approaching the throne of God and then participating in the Most Holy Eucharist. “We don’t do communion once a week, because then it would be less special, that’s why we reserve it for once a month” This is such a backwards sentiment for those who want a personal relationship with Jesus? Receiving Jesus Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity is the ultimate in having a personal relationship with Jesus. I can’t understand why a person would push Him away when the opportunity to receive Him is there for the taking daily and weekly.

Those who see Catholics and Lutherans as going through the motions really do not have a clue as to what we believe. I will not speak for the Lutheran faith because I would not want to insult them if I make a mistake in assessing their beliefs, however those how believe this way have not educated themselves as to what Catholic worship is. Every Biblical account that I have read where there is a depiction of those in heaven worshiping God is as Catholics do. It is not rock bands, happy clappy revivals and social time. It is about approaching the throne of God and bowing before His alter in Heaven. Catholic worship is as “authentic and relevant church” as you can get and our worship is as close as you can get as is described in Sacred Scripture accounts of those in heaven worshiping God on His throne.

Now with that said, I would never dissuade anyone from any type of Protestant worship if that is where they fell they meet and come to know Jesus and the Christian faith. I may not agree with it, and it is not my place to judge. That is between God and the Christian worshiper, I do not profess to know Gods mind and will, for all I know the Holy Spirit has lead them there for whatever reason, I do not know. It could be that is the only place the Holy Spirit can get them to worship God and that may be better than the alternative… living in a spiritual wasteland as I did many years ago, not a good place to be.
 
Just to give the other side (and I am NOT saying I agree) I have often heard people who go to ND churches say things like this: “Where is the worship in the Catholic Mass? All those rituals and memorized prayers, it’s all so stilted. They look like robots. Here, we really let the Holy Spirit move us. We raise our hands and clap, showing our joy for God. We don’t do communion once a week, because then it would be less special, that’s why we reserve it for once a month. Worship shouldn’t be rote, it should be spontaneous and happy. We’re seeker-friendly, so we don’t want anyone to feel like they have to do something they don’t understand. Catholics [and Lutherans] are just going through the motions. That’s not for us. We want an authentic, relevant church.” (I’m paraphrasing a bunch of comments I’ve heard over the years.)

To nondenominational Protestants, “worship” often means praising God in their minds while singing music. They feel that they are more happy, joyful and expressive than more liturgical churches. In some cases, they are former Catholics. The worship feels very authentic and freeing to them.
Very good points. I’ve often heard those arguments and probably would have automatically (and ignorantly) agreed with them for most of my life. It may help for Catholics to understand that many Protestants, especially non-denominationals and other contemporary types, refer to the singing part of the service as “worship.” The song leader is the “worship leader” and the band is the “worship team.” Most, if challenged, would say, “of course music isn’t the only worship” but that seems to be the general mindset. These types of folks often do not think of “reverence” at all when then think of worship - they think of vibrantly singing upbeat praise songs and clapping or raising or waving their hands along with a great band and great singers.

This isn’t nearly all Protestants of course, or even all nondenominational/evangelical types. But it’s really common and pretty much what I grew up with. I always wince at the term “worship leader” nowadays!

(Interesting thing - these folks often complain about the repetition of the Rosary, of the same parts of the Mass every week, etc - but may sing the chorus of a praise song 10 times in a row every few weeks…)
 
…oh, if I checked those bulletins, would I find “hyperdulia re Mary, 7:00 p.m. Thursday”…kinda curious.
Well, I don’t think you would, but here’s a mission for you (as Sesu Hiyakawa said in the opening scene of Bridge Across the River Kwai) “Work ahard and you will be treated well!” Pick a big Archdiocese, say Chicago, Boston, New York, and go to its website. There you will find a list of parishes with links to the parish websites. On most of those websites you’ll find a link to a bulletin or a weekly event calendar.

See if you can find “Mary Worship”, “Saint dulia” or “Mary hyperdulia”. If you are successful I’ll see if I can’t get you an indulgence. How’s that for a deal?
 
QUOTE=Radical;6893537]where in the world do you get the “all” idea from? or are your referring to the same sacrifices about which David said: **You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. **
if so, why is it that you think that the NDs are not presenting the sacrifices of a broken spirit or a broken and contrite heart?
I also wonder what you think went on when there was no temple for a sacrifice? did worship stop during that period?
Do not confuse the Old covenant with the New covenant, for the Old covenant practices become fulfilled in the New Covenant of Jesus Christ. God’s law new and old required a sacrifice for our sins. Hebrews sums it up here;

Hebrews 10:3
But in those sacrifices there is only a yearly remembrance of sins,
4
for it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats take away sins.
5
**For this reason, when he came into the world, he said: 3 “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; **
6
holocausts and sin offerings you took no delight in.
7
Then I said, ‘As is written of me in the scroll, Behold, I come to do your will, O God.’”
8
**First he says, “Sacrifices and offerings, holocausts and sin offerings, 4 you neither desired nor delighted in.” These are offered according to the law. **9
**Then he says, “Behold, I come to do your will.” He takes away the first to establish the second. **10
**By this “will,” we have been consecrated through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. **

The Catholic church since Pentecost has been offering the perfect sacrifice God accepts according to the prophets praying without ceasing from the rising of the sun to its setting. The Catholic Church worships God from the rising of the sun to its setting daily, every hour of the day (everywhere) world wide in the Sacrificial Mass, and or Adoration of God’s presence before the blessed sacrament.

Here is the prophet Malachi;

Malachi11
For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; **And everywhere **they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.
When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. If anyone speaks in a tongue, two–or at the most three–should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God. Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets
These meetings Paul speaks about are gifts for the edification (strengthening) of the Church. This rebuke or correction to the Corinthian Church were abusing these gifts. I will not debate ND’s about these gifts if they use them as part of their worship services. For a Catholic, Hebrews desribes in greater detail what took place in first century worship and continues to take place in the Mass world wide.

Hebrews 12;18
4 You have not approached that which could be touched 5 and a blazing fire and gloomy darkness and storm
19
and a trumpet blast and a voice speaking words such that those who heard begged that no message be further addressed to them,

,**No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering,
23
**and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, 6 and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect, **24
and Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood that speaks more eloquently 7 than that of Abel. 25 **See that you do not reject the one who speaks. For if they did not escape when they refused the one who warned them on earth, how much more in our case if we turn away from the one who warns from heaven.

There is no new divine revelations since the last apostles is what the Catholic Church teaches. The prophets all point to what Jesus Christ has established in his Kingdom fulfilled. There is much to expound on this particular topic. A prophet who speaks for God, speaks for all of Christendom, not just for a select few.

Peace be with you
 
I am forced to agree here. One of my biggest problems with mainstream evangelicalism (ND or otherwise) is that the element of worship seems to have been shunted aside in favor of entertainment and comfort.

I am really concerned at times that many churches have reduced worship to a sing-a-long and a lecture. I thought we as Christians were supposed to be countercultural yet it seems to me in our worship we are swallowing modern culture hook, line, and sinker.

George Everson
Yes, I don’t think most churches are considered countercultural. Some time back I remember discussions about the growth of Islam and one the the reasons for that growth was it stood firm for its beliefs and members were expected to live in a certain way that reflected their beliefs. Now I am not for rigidity for the sake rigidity but for sake of truth, yes…we should not conform to the culture but to something much higher. I suspect one of the reason that these churches favor comfort and entertainment is because some market analyst told them ‘do this and bring in more members’…It may work in the short term but don’t think this is the way to approach church growth

With that said there are always Churches ‘flying under the radar’ trying or proclaim truth, live truth stand for something outside of our culture,they usually don’t make the news or broadcast their services on tv, but their there plodding along
 
QUOTE=JRRTFAN; IN RESPONSE TO JRRTFAN:
Code:
 First of all let me say that I am here in search of truth. I've devoted myself to study and the finality of God's truth.  I also have been in many both ND chuches and catholic masses.  So far most of the reasons I'm reading here are based on material preferences(clothing type, volume levels, donuts in hands??).  I also read nowhere about their specific church offering, communion, or the alter call(Which are very big deals and a very Important part of the ND churches I've attended) that I've heard all ND churches offer at the end of every message. Thankfully, through my studies so far I have found that we have instruction from the Lord of how we are to worship him:
(Psalms 150)
1 Hallelujah! 2 Praise God in his holy sanctuary; give praise in the mighty dome of heaven.
2 Give praise for his mighty deeds, praise him for his great majesty.
3 Give praise with blasts upon the horn, praise him with harp and lyre.
4 Give praise with tambourines and dance, praise him with flutes and strings.
5 Give praise with crashing cymbals, praise him with sounding cymbals.
6 Let everything that has breath give praise to the LORD! Hallelujah!

(Psalm 33:1-5)
1 Rejoice, you just, in the LORD; praise from the upright is fitting.
2 Give thanks to the LORD on the harp; on the ten-stringed lyre offer praise.
3 Sing to God a new song; skillfully play with joyful chant.
4 For the LORD’S word is true; all his works are trustworthy.
5 The LORD loves justice and right and fills the earth with goodness.

Jesus speaks to the Samaritan woman in (John 4:21-24)
21 Jesus said to her, “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.
22 You people worship what you do not understand; we worship what we understand, because salvation is from the Jews.
23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth; 9 and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him.
24 God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth.”

(Psalms 149:1-4)
1 Hallelujah! Sing to the LORD a new song, a hymn in the assembly of the faithful.
2 Let Israel be glad in their maker, the people of Zion rejoice in their king.
3 Let them praise his name in festive dance, make music with tambourine and lyre.
4 For the LORD takes delight in his people, honors the poor with victory.
5 Let the faithful rejoice in their glory, cry out for joy at their banquet,

Thought it was especially cool that this last verse specifically says for the faithful to cry out for joy at their banquet! So I’d say your daughter was doing excatly what the Lord wanted at the YMCA crock-pot Buffet!

(…all scripture is from my Roman Catholic Bible)
 
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