Where is the "Worship" in Non denominational Services

[4thelamb]

First of all let me say:

 I am here in search of truth. I've devoted myself to study and the finality of God's truth.  I also have been in many both ND chuches and catholic masses.  So far most of the reasons I'm reading here are based on material preferences(clothing type, volume levels, donuts in hands??).  I also read nowhere about their specific church offering, communion, or the alter call(Which are very big deals and a very Important part of the ND churches I've attended) that I've heard all ND churches offer at the end of every message. Thankfully, through my studies so far I have found that we have instruction from the Lord of how we are to worship him:

(Psalms 150)
1
1 Hallelujah! 2 Praise God in his holy sanctuary; give praise in the mighty dome of heaven.
2 Give praise for his mighty deeds, praise him for his great majesty.
3 Give praise with blasts upon the horn, praise him with harp and lyre.
4 Give praise with tambourines and dance, praise him with flutes and strings.
5 Give praise with crashing cymbals, praise him with sounding cymbals.
6 Let everything that has breath give praise to the LORD! Hallelujah!

(Psalm 33:1-5)
1 Rejoice, you just, in the LORD; praise from the upright is fitting.
2 Give thanks to the LORD on the harp; on the ten-stringed lyre offer praise.
3 Sing to God a new song; skillfully play with joyful chant.
4 For the LORD’S word is true; all his works are trustworthy.
5 The LORD loves justice and right and fills the earth with goodness.

Jesus speaks to the Samaritan woman in (John 4:21-24)

21 Jesus said to her, “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.
22 You people worship what you do not understand; we worship what we understand, because salvation is from the Jews.
23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth; 9 and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him.
24 God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth.”

(Psalms 149:1-4)

1 Hallelujah! Sing to the LORD a new song, a hymn in the assembly of the faithful.
2 Let Israel be glad in their maker, the people of Zion rejoice in their king.
3 Let them praise his name in festive dance, make music with tambourine and lyre.
4 For the LORD takes delight in his people, honors the poor with victory.
5 Let the faithful rejoice in their glory, cry out for joy at their banquet,

Thought it was especially cool that this last verse specifically says for “the faithful to cry out for joy at their ***banquet”! ***So I’d say your daughter was doing excatly what the Lord wanted at the YMCA crock-pot Buffet!

(…all scripture is from my Roman Catholic Bible)

 

[Justin1982]

Yes, I don’t think most churches are considered countercultural. Some time back I remember discussions about the growth of Islam and one the the reasons for that growth was it stood firm for its beliefs and members were expected to live in a certain way that reflected their beliefs.

This is a good point, most churches aren’t counter cultural, this is why most aren’t attacked when it comes to adhering to there own beliefs. The growth of Islam stems from a rigidness of their belief system and lack of ability to question their beliefs. Many Sharia lead countries are similar to that of socialist countries, where socialism looks to grant equal share of money and support to everyone the Sharia looks to grant universal salvation.

I like the quote by Pope Benedict, “Wherever politics tries to be redemptive, it is promising too much. Where it wishes to do the work of God, it becomes not divine, but demonic.”

 

[waxwing]

This is a good point, most churches aren’t counter cultural, this is why most aren’t attacked when it comes to adhering to there own beliefs. The growth of Islam stems from a rigidness of their belief system and lack of ability to question their beliefs. Many Sharia lead countries are similar to that of socialist countries, where socialism looks to grant equal share of money and support to everyone the Sharia looks to grant universal salvation.

I like the quote by Pope Benedict, “Wherever politics tries to be redemptive, it is promising too much. Where it wishes to do the work of God, it becomes not divine, but demonic.”

My understanding is that mainstream Islam belief system doesn’t sway depending on the culture and thats its members are expected to live a certain lifestyle which may fall outside of our culture, ie the use of alchol. I admit this is just a theory I heard while back while listening to a discussion of Islam, whether it had any merit who knows, but made sense to me.

I think at heart people do long for standards, and if Churches stood still in the face of cultural shifts I think people would gravity towards this

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

when true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth;

9 and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him.
24 **God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth." **

Hello 4thelamb; I have a question? How does your interpretation from Johns gospel above regarding worship in Spirit and Truth relate to giving song and praise to God?

If God is Spirit and Truth is revealed through Jesus God incarnate, where do you get the interpretation that Spirit can mean someone giving praise and song, followed by an altar call? Can you help me see your ND connection of worshipping God in Spirit and Truth?

I see worshipping the Father in the Holy Spirit in the True presence of “Truth” Jesus body, blood, soul and divinity present. John 14:6 (states) 6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth 5 and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. ** and then in verse 16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always,
17
the Spirit of truth, 9 which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.
18
I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. **

If Catholics go to the Father through Jesus True presence in his body, blood, soul and divinity in the Holy Spirit. Can you explain how an ND service through praise’s are able to enter the Holies of Holies without a True presence of Jesus Christ body and blood? Would you care to reveal here how ND’s are able to enter the presence of God without Jesus body, blood soul and divinity?

St. Thomas Aquainus full of joy, made this statement about his Catholic faith during his sermon on the feast of Corpus Christi from sacred scripture; Deut. 4:7
“For what great nation is there that has gods so close to it as the LORD, our God, is to us whenever we call upon him?”

Peace be with you

 

[Justin1982]

My understanding is that mainstream Islam belief system doesn’t sway depending on the culture and thats its members are expected to live a certain lifestyle which may fall outside of our culture, ie the use of alchol. I admit this is just a theory I heard while back while listening to a discussion of Islam, whether it had any merit who knows, but made sense to me.

Thus far, what I’ve read, Sharia forms the culture and is used much like our constitution but unlike our constitution Sharia forces people to live by Islam’s doctrine, that’s all people ruled by Sharia. If you don’t know about history in the Eastern Rite I would say Sharia echoes throughout that history and you may want to read into it.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

bump

 

[4thelamb]

and then in verse 16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always,
17
the Spirit of truth, 9 which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.
18
I will not leave you orphans;** I will come to you. **

If Catholics go to the Father through Jesus True presence in his body, blood, soul and divinity in the Holy Spirit. Can you explain how an ND service through praise’s are able to enter the Holies of Holies without a True presence of Jesus Christ body and blood? Would you care to reveal here how ND’s are able to enter the presence of God without Jesus body, blood soul and divinity?

St. Thomas Aquainus full of joy, made this statement about his Catholic faith during his sermon on the feast of Corpus Christi from sacred scripture; Deut. 4:7
“For what great nation is there that has gods so close to it as the LORD, our God, is to us whenever we call upon him?”

Peace be with you

 

[benidict]

where in the world do you get the “all” idea from? or are your referring to the same sacrifices about which David said: **You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. **

if so, why is it that you think that the NDs are not presenting the sacrifices of a broken spirit or a broken and contrite heart?

I also wonder what you think went on when there was no temple for a sacrifice? did worship stop during that period?

are you familiar with Paul’s description of the gathering of the faithful? It went like this:

When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. If anyone speaks in a tongue, two–or at the most three–should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God. Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets

some NDs try to follow that description, others take the position that the gifts of prophecy and tongues have ceased and so they try to follow that example absent of the contributions of those gifts…few, if any, of the NDs would connect Paul’s description to a liturgical format.

yes, it seems that the Corinthians met regularly to share an actual meal where the Lord’s supper formed a part of the meal. Most NDs would recognize that meeting in a house in order to share a meal with all the members of the local congregation (as seems to have been the practice of the early Corinthians) is no longer practical given the size of the congregations…and returning to scripture’s declaration that “the sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart”, they would believe that it is substance and not form that matters.

right, but it doesn’t say that it is to be done daily or weekly and it most certainly doesn’t say that it is to be done in a liturgical format…and it doesn’t say that it is to be the centre of the congregation’s worship.

my arent we cocky? its kinda hard to believe the nd.s are presenting a sacrafice of a broken and contrite heart, when they are laughing and joking the whole service. or when the cheesy pop band is playing its noise. and believe it or not, if you could get to rome, and look at the evidence left by the early Church who worshiped in the catacombs, you would see, that it was liturgical. remember, Christianity came from Judaism. which is… you guessed it! liturgical. also the Church was meeting daily. and it still continues today. you also may want to check out malichi 1:11 to see a prophecy of the True Church. its certainly not this hoopty doo, im ok your ok fluff and stuff. or a watering down of the gospel in, what do they call it? A TOPIC MESSAGE? whats that? not to mention all the other hokie terminology. ah well. to each his own i guess. ill stick to what worked for the apostles and the Early Church. oh and incidentially, the Eucharist was the center of the congregations worship. just as it is today.

 

[4thelamb]

and then in verse 16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always,
17
the Spirit of truth, 9 which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.
18
I will not leave you orphans;** I will come to you. **

If Catholics go to the Father through Jesus True presence in his body, blood, soul and divinity in the Holy Spirit. Can you explain how an ND service through praise’s are able to enter the Holies of Holies without a True presence of Jesus Christ body and blood? Would you care to reveal here how ND’s are able to enter the presence of God without Jesus body, blood soul and divinity?

St. Thomas Aquainus full of joy, made this statement about his Catholic faith during his sermon on the feast of Corpus Christi from sacred scripture; Deut. 4:7
“For what great nation is there that has gods so close to it as the LORD, our God, is to us whenever we call upon him?”

Peace be with you

First of all, I see you didn’t comment on the bulk of scipture I posted (Psalms 150; 149; 33). Which was the scripture that specifically addressed the complaints the previous gentlemen had about music at a ND service. I assume that’s because you agree with me that music of a ND service closely parallels what David tells us what’s acceptable to do when worshipping the Lord.
Second, The verse in John was to explain that worshiping the Lord is now an inward act, because the Holy Spirit (who is the advocate) dwells within us. God is with us everywhere, not just when we go to the Temple. Jesus is telling her in John 4:23 she doesn’t need to go into Jeruselem to worship God, because God is Spirit and God is Truth he’s everywhere and in everything(Col 3:11). Even inside of our Hearts and Minds. Worship is to Lift him up. To worship in spirit and truth is that we can worship God with everything that’s in us. Because the Holy Spirit lives in us. He’s not a distant concept but a living breathing Spirit in us because of Christ(Rom.8:9). We are to be holy inwardly. A circumcision no longer of the body but of the HEART(Rom 2:29). This is so important in understanding everything Jesus ever said. When Jesus preached that we would eat of his body and drink of his blood in John 6:60, it says many stopped following him, This was because they were Jews and were commanded not to drink blood! So they did not believe he was from God. Because he had told them to break such a serious restriction. They thought Jesus was talking about cannibalism. They were stuck in the physical and didn’t understand that Jesus was speaking about the Spiritual. That he would be spiritual food, and spiritual drink. Nourishment and strength so that none would ever hunger or thirst again. Of course we’ll PHYSICALLY have to eat and drink again! we’d starve! But spiritually…inwardly…we will never hunger or thirst again because Jesus is the Bread of Life and giver of Living Water. Therefore when we partake of Communion its not a literal cannibalistic act! Its a physical representation of a spiritual act! This seems very plainly and consistently preached throughout the N.T. There must be an understanding that the Old covenant was replaced by the New. The Physical replaced by the Spiritual, which is the Nature of God. We have freedom in Christ…free from human regulations(which comes from men) and the slavery of circumcision!(Gal.5:1; Col. 2)

I believe a ND service does this well. If you’re idea of worship is that you think your literally eating skin and blood, then of course you would have a difficult time understanding how a christian worships the Lord. The only way is to read and study the Bible, with a clear understanding that we’re not under the Old Code anymore.

(John 14:6) is Jesus saying he’s the only bridge between God and man. He’s emphatically declaring that no man can get to the Father, in Heaven, except through him. He’s our only salvation. No other can bridge the gap between God and man over the gap of sin. he’s our one and only mediator, intercessor, and way we can reach God, who reigns in Heaven. This is one area I have noticed that is constantly misunderstood. And if you misunderstand as big a statement as John 14:6 my brother, then you’ve missed it all! Because that’s the coolest part of all of this is that because of Jesus we can turn from our sin and be saved…we can pray to God Almighty and be heard! And yes we partake of the Last Supper to remember that the Lord died for our sins and was resurected on the third day, conquering sin and death which is why he’s worthy to be our one and only Reedemer!(Rev. 5:12)

 

[George_Everson]

4theLamb

I am not saying you are totally wrong. There is room for different types of worship in God’s Kingdom. However, I would point out a few practical facts.

First–I agree with those who say that there needs to be reverence in God’s Church. The idea of eating and drinking at a buffet table while the service is in session is disrespectful of the One we are there to meet with. We need to understand we are not meeting with God as our best bud whom we hang out with all the time but with the God of all Creation. when Isaiah saw God in the temple he fell to his knees and cried out “Woe is me!” (Isaiah 6). When John the beloved disciple saw His beloved friend and Master, He also fell to his knees Revelation 1. I am concerned that in our present society we are developing a lack of reverence for God by how we approach Him, or don’t approach Him in worship. I am not saying this has to be done in a solemn mass. But in the ND churches I have been in I have seen very few times when people take time to “be still and know that I am God (Psalm 46:10).” I know some will tell me that this verse is meant to be done by the individual believer but what I would say is this, if we don’t practice stillness in public how can we expect to do it in private? Is there no place for quiet reverence and respect for the Holy in modern worship?

Secondly, you speak of the Lord’s Supper as a remembrance. I don’t want to get off the topic but I will say this. The more I study the more I realize it was not meant to simply be a memorial. Here’s some thoughts. We have the Scriptures that speak over and over again of Jesus suffering, death, and burial, why would our Lord leave us a “memorial” if what He did for us was left so clearly and unambiguosly throughout the New Testament? The entire New Testament testifies to Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross. Therefore by logic the Lord’s Supper was either a ceremony meant only for the Apostles in Apostolic times or as many believe it was meant to be a living sign and seal of His sacrifice for all times to nourish the Believer in some mystic way we can only barely conceive.

I did not want to come out swinging here, but I felt some things needed to be said here.

Peace be with you,

George Everson

 

[wmscott]

So you found a Bible interpretation that says the word banquet, so what. When understood in context you assertion in pointless.

Psalms 149
Verse 5

**Douay Rheims **

The saints shall rejoice in glory: they shall be joyful in their beds.

NAB Let the faithful rejoice in their glory, cry out for joy at their banquet
Foot note: At their banquet: literally, “upon their couches.” The people reclined to banquet.

KJV Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds

**NASB ** Let the godly ones exult in glory; Let them sing for joy on their beds

**NIV ** Let the saints rejoice in this honor and sing for joy on their beds

Haydocks Catholic Bible Commentary

Ver. 5. Beds. In eternal rest. (Worthington) — The prosperity of the Israelites but feebly represents the happiness of the elect. (Calmet)

So in perspective and in context, Psalms 149 verse 5 is taking about those who are in eternal rest i.e. saints died and gone to heaven. Again another example of how personal interpretations further divides.

 

[4thelamb]

4thelamb;6899123:

So you found a Bible interpretation that says the word banquet, so what. When understood in context you assertion in pointless.

Psalms 149
Verse 5

**Douay Rheims **

The saints shall rejoice in glory: they shall be joyful in their beds.

NAB Let the faithful rejoice in their glory, cry out for joy at their banquet
Foot note: At their banquet: literally, “upon their couches.” The people reclined to banquet.

KJV Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds

**NASB ** Let the godly ones exult in glory; Let them sing for joy on their beds

**NIV ** Let the saints rejoice in this honor and sing for joy on their beds

Haydocks Catholic Bible Commentary

Ver. 5. Beds. In eternal rest. (Worthington) — The prosperity of the Israelites but feebly represents the happiness of the elect. (Calmet)

So in perspective and in context, Psalms 149 verse 5 is taking about those who are in eternal rest i.e. saints died and gone to heaven. Again another example of how personal interpretations further divides.

Haha…No the point is to show that all over in scripture(and yes in Psalms) we are given permission to worshp the Lord with everything possible! Guitars…flutes…drums…cybals…and whatever else we have. DON’T DODGE THE POINT. There’s no way to misinterpret that. And The fact that the Catholic NAB Bible said the word Banquet in its translation, well that was just funny! Besides, trying to turn that one verse and word around and ignoring the rest of the scripture is EXACTLY WHY WE HAVE DIVIDES IN THE FIRST PLACE. You see…God is so thorough about what we are to do, that you can argue over one word all you want. and it doesn’t cover up the resounding truth consistently preached. The fact that God wants us to worship him in Praise, with every instrument ever created! And while there is a time and a place for both reverence and joyful song, neither should be condemned! A ND church service, is FINE!

 

[wmscott]

wmscott;6911199:

Haha…No the point is to show that all over in scripture(and yes in Psalms) we are given permission to worshp the Lord with everything possible! Guitars…flutes…drums…cybals…and whatever else we have. DON’T DODGE THE POINT. There’s no way to misinterpret that. And The fact that the Catholic NAB Bible said the word Banquet in its translation, well that was just funny! Besides, trying to turn that one verse and word around and ignoring the rest of the scripture is EXACTLY WHY WE HAVE DIVIDES IN THE FIRST PLACE

. You see…God is so thorough about what we are to do, that you can argue over one word all you want. and it doesn’t cover up the resounding truth consistently preached. The fact that God wants us to worship him in Praise, with every instrument ever created! And while there is a time and a place for both reverence and joyful song, neither should be condemned! A ND church service, is FINE!

Stung a little did it? Truth has a habit of doing that to a person when a falsehood is confronted and dispelled. To be frank **you are the one who singled out verse 5 of Psalms 149 when you stated **“*Thought it was especially cool that this last verse specifically says for the faithful to cry out for joy at their banquet! So I’d say your daughter was doing exactly what the Lord wanted at the YMCA crock-pot Buffet!” also “and all scripture is from my Roman Catholic Bible” *It is this point and this point alone that I am addressing since you made it a closing statement. I just corrected you with the truth and correct interpretation. There is no turning it around; divides exist exactly because of fallible personal interpretations.

As for music you obviously do not know what the Catholic Church teaches so here it is:

1156 The musical tradition of the universal Church is a treasure of inestimable value, greater even than that of any other art.

1157 Song and music fulfill their function as signs in a manner all the more significant when they are “more closely connected . . . with the liturgical action,” according to three principal criteria: beauty expressive of prayer, the unanimous participation of the assembly at the designated moments, and the solemn character of the celebration.

1158 Hence “religious singing by the faithful is to be intelligently fostered so that in devotions and sacred exercises as well as in liturgical services,” in conformity with the Church’s norms, “the voices of the faithful may be heard.”

1191 Song and music are closely connected with the liturgical action. The criteria for their proper use are the beauty expressive of prayer, the unanimous participation of the assembly, and the sacred character of the celebration.

By the way read the last paragraph in post 35

 

[4thelamb]

4theLamb

I am not saying you are totally wrong. There is room for different types of worship in God’s Kingdom. However, I would point out a few practical facts.

First–I agree with those who say that there needs to be reverence in God’s Church. The idea of eating and drinking at a buffet table while the service is in session is disrespectful of the One we are there to meet with. We need to understand we are not meeting with God as our best bud whom we hang out with all the time but with the God of all Creation. when Isaiah saw God in the temple he fell to his knees and cried out “Woe is me!” (Isaiah 6). When John the beloved disciple saw His beloved friend and Master, He also fell to his knees Revelation 1. I am concerned that in our present society we are developing a lack of reverence for God by how we approach Him, or don’t approach Him in worship. I am not saying this has to be done in a solemn mass. But in the ND churches I have been in I have seen very few times when people take time to “be still and know that I am God (Psalm 46:10).” I know some will tell me that this verse is meant to be done by the individual believer but what I would say is this, if we don’t practice stillness in public how can we expect to do it in private? Is there no place for quiet reverence and respect for the Holy in modern worship?

Secondly, you speak of the Lord’s Supper as a remembrance. I don’t want to get off the topic but I will say this. The more I study the more I realize it was not meant to simply be a memorial. Here’s some thoughts. We have the Scriptures that speak over and over again of Jesus suffering, death, and burial, why would our Lord leave us a “memorial” if what He did for us was left so clearly and unambiguosly throughout the New Testament? The entire New Testament testifies to Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross. Therefore by logic the Lord’s Supper was either a ceremony meant only for the Apostles in Apostolic times or as many believe it was meant to be a living sign and seal of His sacrifice for all times to nourish the Believer in some mystic way we can only barely conceive.

I did not want to come out swinging here, but I felt some things needed to be said here.

Peace be with you,

George Everson

Yes, I would agree that eating a buffet during a church service sounds pretty disrespectful. I don’t know if it actually was however, I wasn’t there to see it in its context, but I can agree that it sounds that way. But I do believe that the Lord would rather we eat and praise him, than eat without praising him. So again…make sure we aren’t confusing our Method’s and Principals. Some people have different methods than we are used to, but that doesn’t mean their principals are wrong. Scripture doesn’t condemn those who worship that way and we shouldn’t either. Just because they have different methods than us. I know that Holy Communion is very important in a ND service. They have it every week just like Catholics. And I’ve seen more people on their knees in prayer voluntarily in ND services, than in mass where appropriated times for kneeling on kneelers indicate exactly when to kneel in a Catholic Mass. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with that. But we need to ask ourselves if our worship to the Lord has become routine, just endless waves of going through the motions or whether its something that we yearn to do. That we long for so much we just have to get down on our knees and worship the Lord because we love him so much! Its easy to condemn people for worshiping different than us when we’re taught that there’s only one way to go to church. And one way to come to the Lord. One way to do virtually everything within the church service our entire lives and then we see someone who’s not in “the true church” with different methods of doing things and we say,"Hey, wait, that’s not right! That’s not what I was told for years and years! But who says they’re wrong? Parents? Teachers? Priests? The Church? Whatever it is its not the Bible? Its not God’s word because that’s why they worship that way to start with. Have you ever heard of the Restoration Plea? That was a cry for all men to go back to Biblical principals. Striving for biblical reasoning in everything we do. A cry to go back to being exactly as the early church. The apostles and the first church. (I know them well and one thing they are is extremely Biblical.) This biblical way of thinking is, in my experience(Can’t possibly speak for all), what dominates decision making in a ND church. Specifically a Church of Christ, or Christian Church.

You’re also absolutely right. To say that communion is no more than a dead memorial is completely wrong. There’s nothing more important than what Jesus did for us on the cross. In fact its what justifies everything we believe in. And the fact that we partake of the Lord’s Supper to draw ourselves close to christ, and reconcile ourselves to him, shows that it is very much Alive! But it is still spiritual in meaning. A physical act of a much larger spiritual meaning.That doesn’t make it smaller. It makes it much bigger. In fact if it were only a physical act, without the spiritual importance, it wouldn’t be that important because it wouldn’t involve our immortal soul.

 

[4Squarebaby]

Yes, I would agree that eating a buffet during a church service sounds pretty disrespectful. I don’t know if it actually was however, I wasn’t there to see it in its context, but I can agree that it sounds that way. But I do believe that the Lord would rather we eat and praise him, than eat without praising him. So again…make sure we aren’t confusing our Method’s and Principals. Some people have different methods than we are used to, but that doesn’t mean their principals are wrong. Scripture doesn’t condemn those who worship that way and we shouldn’t either. Just because they have different methods than us. I know that Holy Communion is very important in a ND service. They have it every week just like Catholics. And I’ve seen more people on their knees in prayer voluntarily in ND services, than in mass where appropriated times for kneeling on kneelers indicate exactly when to kneel in a Catholic Mass. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with that. But we need to ask ourselves if our worship to the Lord has become routine, just endless waves of going through the motions or whether its something that we yearn to do. That we long for so much we just have to get down on our knees and worship the Lord because we love him so much! Its easy to condemn people for worshiping different than us when we’re taught that there’s only one way to go to church. And one way to come to the Lord. One way to do virtually everything within the church service our entire lives and then we see someone who’s not in “the true church” with different methods of doing things and we say,"Hey, wait, that’s not right! That’s not what I was told for years and years! But who says they’re wrong? Parents? Teachers? Priests? The Church? Whatever it is its not the Bible? Its not God’s word because that’s why they worship that way to start with. Have you ever heard of the Restoration Plea? That was a cry for all men to go back to Biblical principals. Striving for biblical reasoning in everything we do. A cry to go back to being exactly as the early church. The apostles and the first church. (I know them well and one thing they are is extremely Biblical.) This biblical way of thinking is, in my experience(Can’t possibly speak for all), what dominates decision making in a ND church. Specifically a Church of Christ, or Christian Church.

You’re also absolutely right. To say that communion is no more than a dead memorial is completely wrong. There’s nothing more important than what Jesus did for us on the cross. In fact its what justifies everything we believe in. And the fact that we partake of the Lord’s Supper to draw ourselves close to christ, and reconcile ourselves to him, shows that it is very much Alive! But it is still spiritual in meaning. A physical act of a much larger spiritual meaning.That doesn’t make it smaller. It makes it much bigger. In fact if it were only a physical act, without the spiritual importance, it wouldn’t be that important because it wouldn’t involve our immortal soul.

The “buffet” does seem strange and definitely hard to pull off logistically at anything larger then a home church. But the communion service described in the gospels seems to have taken place during an actual meal to me.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

First of all, I see you didn’t comment on the bulk of scipture I posted (Psalms 150; 149; 33). Which was the scripture that specifically addressed the complaints the previous gentlemen had about music at a ND service. I assume that’s because you agree with me that music of a ND service closely parallels what David tells us what’s acceptable to do when worshipping the Lord.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

QUOTE]That he would be spiritual food, and spiritual drink. Nourishment and strength so that none would ever hunger or thirst again. Of course we’ll PHYSICALLY have to eat and drink again! we’d starve! But spiritually…inwardly…we will never hunger or thirst again because Jesus is the Bread of Life and giver of Living Water. Therefore when we partake of Communion its not a literal cannibalistic act! Its a physical representation of a spiritual act! This seems very plainly and consistently preached throughout the N.T. There must be an understanding that the Old covenant was replaced by the New. The Physical replaced by the Spiritual, which is the Nature of God. We have freedom in Christ…free from human regulations(which comes from men) and the slavery of circumcision!(Gal.5:1; Col. 2)

Let me help you here with some definitions; Canabalism is to eat something dead, Jesus is “ALIVE”. So your Canabalism assumption never applies. What you forget is that God took on our flesh to become one of us in order to save us. When the Word of God became flesh, Jesus is fully human and fully divine. The fleh (physical) did not replace the Spirit as you indicated above. The Spirit fulfilled the flesh and perfected it to himself (God incarnate), for the flesh (old covenant only convicted) it could not save. The New Covenant fulfilled the Old Covenant it did not abolish the law and the prophets, God’s Word never returns void to Him.

The freedom you speak of, is not the freedom the Scriptures speak of. We are commanded by Jesus to “do this in rememberance of me” to "worship God in Spirit and Truth, to Love God and Love Neighbor. In other words we called to obey God because we Love God and neighbor, we are not free to what we “will” but our will is perfected always in God’s will, this is true freedom.

I believe a ND service does this well. If you’re idea of worship is that you think your literally eating skin and blood, then of course you would have a difficult time understanding how a christian worships the Lord. The only way is to read and study the Bible, with a clear understanding that we’re not under the Old Code anymore.

]

I am amazed that you rejoice in the Old Testament Psalms, but reject God’s word that the consuming of the Lamb to remain a perpetual liturgical act in worship to God, when Jesus the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, commands us to “eat his flesh and drink his blood in order to have eternal life”. Catholicism comes from Jesus and the Apostles with both written and Oral Tradition handed down to us “unchanged” these past 2000 years. See 1Cor. 11:23.

Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant in himself, those who are of the Spirit the law cannot convict, but the law of God remains for those who reject His Son Jesus. Again God’s Word never returns void to Him.

(John 14:6) is Jesus saying he’s the only bridge between God and man. He’s emphatically declaring that no man can get to the Father, in Heaven, except through him. He’s our only salvation. No other can bridge the gap between God and man over the gap of sin. he’s our one and only mediator, intercessor, and way we can reach God, who reigns in Heaven

.

This is my question? how do you reach heaven’s True presence on earth as it is in heaven in rejoicing only? You have no disagreement from any Catholic that Jesus is our Mediator between man and God. The heavenly Saints, Martyrs and Angels particpate with us in Mass according to the eternal liturgy in heaven revealed in Revelations, this is when the body of Christ from heaven and earth are united as one to her head Jesus Christ True presence of his body, blood, soul and divinity.

This is one area I have noticed that is constantly misunderstood. And if you misunderstand as big a statement as John 14:6 my brother, then you’ve missed it all! Because that’s the coolest part of all of this is that because of Jesus we can turn from our sin and be saved…we can pray to God Almighty and be heard! And yes we partake of the Last Supper to remember that the Lord died for our sins and was resurected on the third day, conquering sin and death which is why he’s worthy to be our one and only Reedemer!(Rev. 5:12)

There is much to add here, so I will just summarize here; **“Your memory can never save you” **Only the True presence of Jesus body, blood offered for our sins which saves and washes us spotless clean so that we can come before the Father in heaven", because “nothing unclean can come before the Father”.

Peace be with you

 

[George_Everson]

And the fact that we partake of the Lord’s Supper to draw ourselves close to christ, and reconcile ourselves to him, shows that it is very much Alive!

I humbly must correct you on your statement above regarding the Lord’s Supper. The scriptures are very clear that we do not draw ourselves closer to Christ–He draws himself closer to us. We do not reconcile ourselves to him. If that were possible we would have no need of a Savior in the first place. Holy Communion is about us partaking of Him as he offers Himself to us in the elements (by His Spirit or literally depending on your view of the Sacrament) not us offering ourselves to Him.

To draw this back to the present thread conversation, how we view communion can well determine how it is observed in my opinion. I have a friend who attended a low-key ND church and was shocked to see the pastor/deacons set out the communion at the side table at the start of the service, no prayers, no liturgy, no institution, no “fencing of the table”, the elements were simply there for whoever wanted them. To me this was absolutely terrible. I am further concerned because many ND and evangelical churches do not observe communion except very occasionally. The well-known evangelical author, Phillip Yancey in his book The Jesus I Never Knew commented in passing that his church only observed communion once a year on Easter Sunday. We would do well to remember that the Eucharist was observed in the early church every day. (Acts 2:42-47)

In Christ
George Everson

 

[WholeHeart]

My non-denominational church has communion every Sunday.

 

[George_Everson]

My non-denominational church has communion every Sunday.

Wholeheart

I am not saying other evangelical churches don’t do this. I am concerned that there are many more that don’t.

Peace be with you,

George Everson