Where is the "Worship" in Non denominational Services

[RBK]

My wife and kids are ND Christians and I have attended several of their churches hundreds of times over the last 16 or 17 years. None of what I report should be considered derogatory, simply fact. We have the same problem. On can never forget the clown mass used when my formerly Catholic son received his first holy communion in 1986.

The general flow of the services is the same across all the ND churches of which they have been members, except when the service is spiced it up with an African or Russian motif or some such.

The band and the singers are the central focus, sometimes marvelous “Celine Dion would have to audition to be in this group”, sometimes horrid “All the music today was written by our worship leader, Oscar Hammerstein” (Don’t quit your day job). The music may be supplemented with laser light shows, background noises, bells, canons, typewriters, jungle noises (I was even at one where they fired confetti canons out over the congregation) you name it.

The congregant enters, often with coffee and donut in hand, chatting loudly with his fellows. Then the “worship leader” (with guitar) welcomes everyone and calls them to order: “Thank you for bringing the church into this room” (Why he has to thank people for coming to church one cannot determine.). Then “Let’s stand and worship God for who He is and what He has done.”

Generally 4 to 6 rather loud modern songs ensue, Sometimes a soloist will entertain. Then everyone is seated and the worship leader says: “Let me pray for Pastor Blank.” He then prays a sermon in a prayer preparing the congregants for the “message” that Pastor Blank (the senior or preaching pastor) will deliver.

Pastor Blank then enters, bible thoughtfully in hand. His dress ranges from an Armani suit to a rumpled dress shirt with rolled up sleeves. He will start with “In this series we have been…” They all preach a series: 8 steps to a better family, 4 lessons when toubles asail you, how to be a better husband, wife, kid, citizen.

Pastor Blank will generally read from the bible (nearly always New Testament), I’ve heard as few as 3 or 4 words as much as 4 or 5 verses spun into a 30 minute sermon. Often Pastor Blank will stop mid sentence to explain what a word means in Greek: “That’s in the aorist tense and means…” (I’ve been to social events with some of these Greek experts, try this at the next pot luck: Put your keys on the table and say “Pastor Bob, i’ve been meaning to ask you, in Greek how would you say my “4 keys are on the brown round table in the social hall?”” It’s great fun.)

Then Pastor Blank says: “Let me pray for us.” and prays another sermon in a prayer reinforcing what he just talked about and telling God what He has delivered through Pastor Blank.

The band then comes back on stage for a final song and more lights. Then the worship leader announces “You are dismissed” and everybody goes to the coffee shop in the lobby. About an hour and 15 minutes will have passed.

And that is a ND worship service. My daughter used to go to one that was in a YMCA gym. They actually sat at tables and would eat from the crock pot buffet WHILE the service was in process.

I personally find it rather lacking but more often than not the music is good, the singers are pretty and can often dance very well if the music has the right beat. Probably 35 to 55% of the assembly will be former Catholics and when the worship leader delivers the benediction (if he can bring himself to make a sign of the cross over the congregation) will make the sign of the cross themselves.

I never missed Mass to go to one of these services and quit goiing completely about 7 years ago when a junior pastor had a sermon where he read “The Burning of William Hunter” from Foxe’s Book of Martyrs and went on to compare the middle age Catholic Bishops to the current crop of Catholic Bishops and the sex abuse situation.

Everybody should go once just to see what it’s like.

Pretty much dead on. Even the ND’s themselves recognize the problems and are beginning to poke fun of themselves. The second video is beyond funny.

vimeo.com/11501569
youtube.com/watch?v=LTn8FDoKBL4

 

[JRRTFAN]

My non-denominational church has communion every Sunday.

Very rare indeed. I have been to, I’d guess, 8 ND communities with a little regularity over the years and the “communion” or “Lord’s supper” is normally once a month. I’ve seen it done in a number of ways: the more traditional method of passing a plate with little square crackers followed by another tray device holding small plastic cups of wine or grape juice, to everyone processing up to tear off a chunk of french bread held by a communion server with a napkin wrapped around it, then dipping that in the wine or grape juice to coming forward and taking the cracker and little cup. Never more than once a month. And communion is always “taken” where we say it is “recieved”.

But when you have an honest to goodness mega church they just don’t take the time to do it very often. The auditoriums are not set up for people to move forward in an orderly fashion, they are designed to facilitate comfortable ‘in situ’ listening to the music and sermon. So communion processions take a long time.

I honestly don’t know what the ND theology behind having communion is, frankly. I don’t see any point in it based on the belief system.

 

[freedomwriter]

Have you ever heard of Calvary Chapel? They call themselves a non-denominational church movement. What this means is that they have churches all around the country. They were founded in the 60’s by a man named Pastor Chuck Smith. He was surprised one day when his daughter brought home a real life hippie! He was fascinated. He talked to the hippie (who was also a Christian) for hours. Pastor Chuck then realized that there was an evangelization gap for hippies. No one was preaching to hippies! Churches didn’t allow them. He changed that. So he started Calvary Chapel and preached in the beaches of Southern California and his hippie partner preached in high schools. They won many souls like this.

Now you might be thinking, it was started in the 60’s and as a ministry to hippies, must be pretty liberal. Nothing could be further from the truth. What they teach is pretty orthodox and mainstream. They don’t teach anything that would be considered liberal by Protestant (or Catholic for that matter) standards.

Anyways, to your point on scripture reading. Yes it is true that many pastors, such as Joel Osteen do what is called “Topic Messages” in which they choose a topic and preach about it incorporating different scripture passages.

But Calvary Chapel is the opposite. What Pastor Chuck wanted to do was go through from Genesis to Revelation. Each Sunday he would preach on a different chapter in the Bible, going in order from start to finish from that specific book. All Calvary Chapel churches follow this format. They each go through a book of the Bible at a time. So for example they will go through Ephesians from start to finish and then start Philipians for example. Sometimes they will do a whole chapter in one sermon, or split up the chapter into various Sundays so they could concentrate on specific passages from that chapter that are considered important and deserving of their own sermon (for example I once heard a pastor give a 45 minute sermon on James 1: 2-6).

I heard a Catholic blogger say that the Catholic Church is the most scriptural Christian church out there (in terms of using the Bible in the Mass) and that Calvary Chapel churches came in second.

Their worship comes primarily through the music and prayers. Many, if not all, Protestants consider prayer worship. And to them their worship is the music they play before the sermon. The music they play they sing to God and lift up their hearts in song.

They place the lyrics on the screen or wall not to have something your eyes can focus to but so that you know the lyrics of the song so that you could sing and worship along. What good would the worship music be if it was just the worship band (that’s what they are called) is the only one sining and everyone else just watches them. They want you to know the lyrics so that you could praise God and worship Him with them.

If you look at the Protestant numbering of the 10 Commandments you will see that number 2 is “You shall make no graven images” (they combine our 9 & 10 to make the 10th Commandment). We have this as part of the 1st. I’m assuming (again, just a thought, I could be, and probably am, wrong) that they don’t want a cross up their because if your praising and worshiping and looking at that cross they might see it was the whole graven image thing. Though there are MANY churches (again most) that do have a cross above their alter/stage.

I hope I answered your question. One of my best friends is Baptist and I have fun talking to her about these sort of things. I’m sorry if it sounded like I was doing an advertisement for Calvary Chapel, but I thought of them when you mentioned not a lot of Scripture.

If you want more information on non-denominational churches just ask. While I am a strong Catholic, for some reason I love listening to the sermons of these Pastors (they don’t play Fr. Corapi enough on EWTN and sometimes the 15 minute homily my priest gives isn’t enough for me). Look up especially Pastor Greg Laurie (pastor of Harvest Christian Fellowship, one of the first Calvary Chapel churches) and Dr. James MacDonald. While they are non-denominational and not Catholic, much of what they preach is scripture study and such and very informative for us Catholics as well.

These links should be informative to what you are looking for and your questions.
www.harvest.org
youtube.com/watch?v=ff5o8yRmPHc (pastor Greg’s first sermon after the sudden loss of his son)
www.walkintheword.org
calvarychapel.com/

I belong to a Calvary Chapel in Houston. I tell you i have learned more about God’s Word in the first 6 months at Calvary than the 33yrs that I was Catholic. Learned about salvation which was never talked about at my old church. We do go from book to book. On Wednesday’s we are studying the book of Daniel and right now on Sunday’s the 10 commandments. I also love to listen to Greg laurie and James Mcdonald.

 

[Bbigam]

Very rare indeed. I have been to, I’d guess, 8 ND communities with a little regularity over the years and the “communion” or “Lord’s supper” is normally once a month. I’ve seen it done in a number of ways: the more traditional method of passing a plate with little square crackers followed by another tray device holding small plastic cups of wine or grape juice, to everyone processing up to tear off a chunk of french bread held by a communion server with a napkin wrapped around it, then dipping that in the wine or grape juice to coming forward and taking the cracker and little cup. Never more than once a month. And communion is always “taken” where we say it is “recieved”.

But when you have an honest to goodness mega church they just don’t take the time to do it very often. The auditoriums are not set up for people to move forward in an orderly fashion, they are designed to facilitate comfortable ‘in situ’ listening to the music and sermon. So communion processions take a long time.

I honestly don’t know what the ND theology behind having communion is, frankly. I don’t see any point in it based on the belief system.

Interesting observation - the “megachurch” around here always has communion at every weekend service without exception (unless Christmas falls on Sunday in which case they are closed completely…). Communion, however for them is passing around trays with wafers and grape juice while they sing a song. Takes a huge team of ushers… and zero action from the pastor, no prayers, no institution narrative, nothing. I find it rather odd. I bet a visitor who doesn’t know what communion is gets rather confused.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I humbly must correct you on your statement above regarding the Lord’s Supper. The scriptures are very clear that we do not draw ourselves closer to Christ–He draws himself closer to us. We do not reconcile ourselves to him. If that were possible we would have no need of a Savior in the first place. Holy Communion is about us partaking of Him as he offers Himself to us in the elements (by His Spirit or literally depending on your view of the Sacrament) not us offering ourselves to Him

.

That is an accurate assesment George; The Catholic Church teaches when we partake of the Eucharist, it is Christ himself who consumes the believer.

2 Peter 1:4
Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature,

Peace be with you

 

[JRRTFAN]

Interesting observation - the “megachurch” around here always has communion at every weekend service without exception (unless Christmas falls on Sunday in which case they are closed completely…). Communion, however for them is passing around trays with wafers and grape juice while they sing a song. Takes a huge team of ushers… and zero action from the pastor, no prayers, no institution narrative, nothing. I find it rather odd. I bet a visitor who doesn’t know what communion is gets rather confused.

Good point about being closed for business if Christmas is a Sunday, It simply takes too many people away from home for days to prep one of these services. My daughter, from time to time, plays and sings, rehearsals are every night for a week. Services are planned months in advance (depending on the series).

My experience, if it’s a “process forward” communion nobody says anything. If it’s a pass around communion everybody is served and holds “the elements”. Once everybody has them, Pastor stands at the table from which he has handed the trays to the communion servers, lights 2 candles, holds up the cracker and says: “The body of Christ which has been broken for you.” everybody eats, then he holds up the juice: “The blood of Christ which has been shed for you.” everybody drinks. He blows out the candles, walks back up on stage and a drum starts the rest of the music.

My poor wife. One time I went and they passed around “the elements” and then the person sitting next to you was the one who was to hold up “the elements” and say the words. All I could say was “this represents for you the body of Christ” and “this represents for you the body of Christ” even at that, my stomach was rolling.

 

[SSTeacher]

The second video is beyond funny.

vimeo.com/11501569
youtube.com/watch?v=LTn8FDoKBL4

There’s a longer version of the second video here.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[Soldier_X]

I’m a longtime fan of Ignatius. His ministry is based on some verse in the Bible about fire! “We want our kids burning at the stake!” Hubble sees things that are literally hundreds of miles away!

 

[SSTeacher]

I’m a longtime fan of Ignatius. His ministry is based on some verse in the Bible about fire! “We want our kids burning at the stake!” Hubble sees things that are literally hundreds of miles away!

It’s subtle and clever. But some youth pastors are just like that. I’ve occasionally wondered why the youth should be considered a priority by churches and why everybody is in a rush to make sure the youth is given their own pastor, who necessarily has to be youthful, also. I think it’s a very bad idea because the approach seems to have resulted in the youth, as a group, actually influencing the way in which churches worship. The Catholic Church seems also to have fallen into that same trap with the “Life Teen Mass.” According to the Wiki entry, it was a priest, a youth pastor (big surprise ) and a music minister that came up with the Life Teen stuff. Do you know where the whole “youth pastor” idea came from? I never heard of a youth pastor until I came to live in America.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[Bran_Stark]

V
I honestly don’t know what the ND theology behind having communion is, frankly. I don’t see any point in it based on the belief system.

What in the world is that supposed to mean? Non-denominationals practice Communion for precisely the same reason that Catholics do - because Jesus Christ commanded it.

 

[Bbigam]

My experience, if it’s a “process forward” communion nobody says anything. If it’s a pass around communion everybody is served and holds “the elements”. Once everybody has them, Pastor stands at the table from which he has handed the trays to the communion servers, lights 2 candles, holds up the cracker and says: “The body of Christ which has been broken for you.” everybody eats, then he holds up the juice: “The blood of Christ which has been shed for you.” everybody drinks. He blows out the candles, walks back up on stage and a drum starts the rest of the music.

My poor wife. One time I went and they passed around “the elements” and then the person sitting next to you was the one who was to hold up “the elements” and say the words. All I could say was “this represents for you the body of Christ” and “this represents for you the body of Christ” even at that, my stomach was rolling.

Those options actually sound better than what the megachurch here does, because at least someone is saying something in what you’ve seen. It’s all self-service, take-as-you-go with nobody saying anything at this megachurch. Certainly no candles and no altar/table. I would have felt very odd in that last situation your described, serving someone else invalid communion. Not sure what I would have done. The last time I went to a service at this megachurch (a year and a half ago, I was just deciding to become Catholic and my parents go there), I abstained from their communion and got some funny looks.

(I did go out there one afternoon last summer when they baptized 3 of my little siblings as well as hundreds of other people. They do baptisms very nicely and they are definitely valid, unlike the communion.)

 

[JRRTFAN]

The “buffet” does seem strange and definitely hard to pull off logistically at anything larger then a home church. But the communion service described in the gospels seems to have taken place during an actual meal to me.

No, it wasn’t hard, they pulled it off with aplomb. Here’s the scene: It’s in a YMCA gym, concrete floor, basketball goals at either end. Under basket one we have the band, couple guitars, drums, violin, I don’t recall if there was any brass. A small table where pastor had a bible and a glass of water. In the middle of the floor are about 20 round 10 top tables and then in the back, under basket two, are the serving tables with crock pots, bisquits, chaffing dishes with eggs, bacon, sausage etc.

Once the service starts you just get up and serve yourself while the singing or preaching is going on. Where there’s a will there’s a way.

I’m telling you true, I was there and my daughter and her friend Katie were 2 of the pretty girls under basket one.

Now, the eggs were not bad but the bisquits were a little over cooked and dry. The service was nothing short of bizarre, but it was repeated this way every week for about 3 years until pastor moved to New York to plant more churches. (He’s a good soul and I like him very much. My son went on a mission trip with him to Sri Lanka.)

Such is non-denominational AMERICAN Protestantism. Whatever floats your boat is fair game. Isn’t it funny it’s always AMERICAN?

 

[JRRTFAN]

Those options actually sound better than what the megachurch here does, because at least someone is saying something in what you’ve seen. It’s all self-service, take-as-you-go with nobody saying anything at this megachurch. Certainly no candles and no altar/table. I would have felt very odd in that last situation your described, serving someone else invalid communion. Not sure what I would have done. The last time I went to a service at this megachurch (a year and a half ago, I was just deciding to become Catholic and my parents go there), I abstained from their communion and got some funny looks.

(I did go out there one afternoon last summer when they baptized 3 of my little siblings as well as hundreds of other people. They do baptisms very nicely and they are definitely valid, unlike the communion.)

Trust me, I was as uncomfortable as I have ever been doing that ersatz consecration. But if does represent something to those folks, I don’t know what that is exactly, so I felt I could do it. Obviously I never parrticipate and have gotten a few wierd looks, but before they start they generally say that it’s an open communion and anyone who has trusted Jesus as their personal savior (and is thus saved) may partake. So I assume they just think I’m unsaved. It would never cross their mind that an unrepentant papish papist was in their very midst collecting experiences to report on message boards.

 

[4thelamb]

And after we give praise to God in everything including song and dance, when does the worship of Spirit and Truth (John4:20-24) begin in his “True” presence?

When do we “be still and know that IAM God”? (Psalm 46:10) before we get to Psalm 150:shrug:

Good question…the answer is simple:

Anytime you want! For as long as you want. That’s the great part! And its good that you’re familiar with John 4:23 because worshiping in Sprit and in Truth in John 4 is Jesus telling the Samaritan woman that “a time is coming and has now come” when you don’t have to go to the temple to worship the Lord. No longer do you need to go to Jerusalem…offering up your sacrifice in the Holy of Holies… because God is everywhere and in everything. You can worship the Lord wherever you are and however silent or loud you wish to be. That part, the method, is up to you. Just as long as the principal, the worship, is applied. As Christians, worship on the Lord’s Day is mainly a spiritual feast, or food, for laborers who have toiled all of the previous week in the vineyard of the Lord. Worship becomes dynamic when it comes at the end of eager doing in Christian work. If there has been no joyful labor during the week, then worship on the Lord’s Day actually becomes work, but often worthless, unless it moves on to better motives and brings beauty into the soul for another week of service. Our worship to the Lord is not defined by the method of worship we use on any one particular Sunday. But instead our worship takes on many forms in all we do that glorifies the Lord. Including silent and audible prayer, and steadfast studying of God’s Word.

 

[pjlang]

After reading the forums for some time, I decided I would finally comment on a thread and share my personal experience. I grew up in a family split between fundamentalist Protestant and devout Catholic. Although I was baptized Catholic, I spent many years attending fundamentalist Protestant churches due to my stepfather who was a deacon of his church and whose father was a preacher. Being an insider of both cultures has given me some perspective.

A recurring theme I encounter in the forums is a lot of arrogance from both Catholics and our Christian brothers outside of our church. Frankly, it makes me sick at my stomach.

If Christ were here today, would he mock people for attempting to faithfully worship him and for joyously loving God with all of their hearts? Would he belittle people spending their time researching and exchanging dialog with other Christians about our faith?

As a child, I spent nights praying for and crying over my family members (many of whom were Catholic) because they hadn’t found the “one true” church and didn’t worship God the right way. I had been taught that they couldn’t be saved unless they turned from their churches and ways of worship to ours (i.e. their church inserted the Pope as a mediator between man and God, made itself the only means by which salvation could be obtained instead of Christ, and they worshiped Mary by every dictionary definition of worship etc. etc. etc. ).

There was a singular moment in my life when I knew what I had been taught was wrong and I could never subscribe to fundamentalist thinking anymore. When I was about 10 years old during a visit with my grandparents, my grandmother took me to a trailer park up the road from her house. There was a small social center in the park where a few dozen elderly people had gathered for church. The pastor drove up in a beaten up VW bus and got out wearing a shabby suit. He led the congregation in prayer, hymns, and a reading from the bible. There was no Eucharist/Lord’s supper and the music was the most cacophonous out of tune singing I had ever heard. Right there, at that most humble of services, I felt the presence of God like I had never felt before or since. My heart was touched and I had a feeling of peace and joy wash over me. This experience profoundly affected me and changed many of my most sacred and deeply held beliefs.

I firmly believe that God holds us accountable for what we believe/profess. If we declare other Christian’s methods of worship worthless or inferior in the eyes of God. We sure better look at our own house and make certain nothing is out of order, lest we be held to standard we ourselves can’t meet. Christ said that, “you’ll recognize them by their fruit”. My friends who attend Nondenominational churches are among the most generous, warm and pious people I have met. If we as Catholics could exude that same feeling of warmth and community so many people experience when they walk through the door of these churches, we would have far less inactive and fallen away members.

Why can’t we celebrate the fact that after 2000 years there are still so many of us that love Christ and try our best to worship understand and honor him?

May God bless all who come to this forum searching for a deeper understanding of their faith.

-PJ

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

After reading the forums for some time, I decided I would finally comment on a thread and share my personal experience. I grew up in a family split between fundamentalist Protestant and devout Catholic. Although I was baptized Catholic, I spent many years attending fundamentalist Protestant churches due to my stepfather who was a deacon of his church and whose father was a preacher. Being an insider of both cultures has given me some perspective.

As much as I would sympathize with your disposition. The Catholic Church never has nor ever will submit to universalism, secularism, relativism or submitting to mans freewill to do what he wants to do apart from God’s perfect will.

A recurring theme I encounter in the forums is a lot of arrogance from both Catholics and our Christian brothers outside of our church. Frankly, it makes me sick at my stomach.

 

[Monica4316]

Although my experience with non-denominational churches is very limited, I found myself sitting in a ND congregation recently. I have to admit that they put on a good show, and the food court puts our after-mass coffee and donuts to shame. However, having been raised in the Lutheran Church and after attending mass with my Catholic wife for several years, my ND experience didn’t really feel like “church.” That said, I bet someone who had been raised in a ND church would come away from a Catholic mass feeling pretty empty.

Actually for me it’s been the opposite… I was non denom Protestant before I was Catholic, and whenever I go to a Protestant church now, it feels empty to me without the Eucharist. I find the Mass much more fulfilling spiritually. Protestant services are emotionally-driven, but they don’t really affect me spiritually as much.

 

[Bbigam]

Actually for me it’s been the opposite… I was non denom Protestant before I was Catholic, and whenever I go to a Protestant church now, it feels empty to me without the Eucharist. I find the Mass much more fulfilling spiritually. Protestant services are emotionally-driven, but they don’t really affect me spiritually as much.

Ditto! Yes, it’s been this way for me too. (Well, I was really more non-liturgical Methodist, but also went to an ND mega-church for a little while, where my parents still go.) The music may be well done, the message may be good… but it’s incomplete.

Not all Protestant service are emotionally driven, by the way. But the types we’ve been talking about certainly tend to be.

 

[pjlang]

As much as I would sympathize with your disposition. The Catholic Church never has nor ever will submit to universalism, secularism, relativism or submitting to mans freewill to do what he wants to do apart from God’s perfect will.

 

[pjlang]

I had to break my post into two parts:

What you mistake for sickness may be how you take from the posters. What I have viewed are practices of each, and a willing to express how one worships. So that an understanding can be reached disclosing truth’s or revealing pride of men. Without these hard knocks how are we to come to understand each other’s differing practices. If you cannot stomach the Truth? then perhaps you can reveal a Truth without denying the Truth?

Great point, what I should have written is “if Jesus were posting in this forum right now (instead of if Jesus were here) would he belittle and mock other people for putting their whole heart and faith into worshiping God but just not in full communion with the Church?” I think not. He would teach and correct with compassion and chairty. He saved the mocking and belittlement for hypocrites.

Grant it, that you make an argument in regards to etiquette here how one expresses his opinion, does this not violate your own assesment of respecting others freedoms to express themselves? God does not change, but man freewills to change god how man chooses himself, not by God’s perfect will. The Catholic Church is built upon Rock, She will never submitt to man’s freewill. The Catholic Church will continue to practice Christianity from the Apostles of Jesus Christ these past 2000 years.

No it doesn’t violate my own assessment of respecting others freedom to express themselves. I never demanded complete freedom of expression, only we should be respectful when we are expressing ourselves and hearing others.

Truth is what you put on trial here, between individualism, relativism, universalism, freewill, secularism, etc… from what God has revealed to his Catholic Church.

This is sufficiently addressed in the first response above. However, I will say that I do admire your passion even if you did jump to an erroneous conclusion before gathering all the facts.

Peace be with you.

Acts 17:11