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fbl9
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Christ Jesus
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pablope
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Are you asking “Who” instead of “What”?
It is Jesus Christ, who else, who is the cornerstone of the Church.
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tester
Guest
so I’ll ask : what is Truth?
Being the Word of God, the Bible is not merely “the pillar and ground,” but the “truth” itself. Jesus prayed to the Father: "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your Word is truth" (John 17:17).
In other words, the mission of the church is to faithfully uphold, defend and proclaim the teaching of the Bible. It follows that an indispensable mark of the true church is its faithfulness to the Gospel.
** A “church” that has departed from the truth and is teaching another “gospel” is a cracked pillar and sandy ground. **
Now if you assume that “the church” refers to the Catholic bishops and not to all Christians, then “the truth” is whatever the Magisterium teaches.
But if you assume that “the truth” is the Gospel message recorded infallibly in the Scriptures, then you can check out whether the Roman magisterium (which claims to be “the church”) is faithfully teaching God’s message.
and as it has been pointed out before:
The apostle clearly identifies the church as God’s household, and therefore it comprises every true Christian, not only their leaders. The whole church - all Christians - are collectively the pillar and ground of truth.
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tester
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The doctrine of Sola Scriptura, like the doctrine of the Trinity, is not based on one particular proof text. The passage you mentioned is one of the many scriptures that support the sufficiency of the Bible as the only infallible rule of the Christian faith.
The Holy Scriptures are the property and the inheritance of the people of God and they pass them on from one generation to another. How did you first learn that the book called the “Holy Bible” is the Word of God? Was it not from your parents or from your Sunday School teacher or your pastor or some other Christian? Even though they are not infallible, the Lord used them to place in your hands His book and the doctrines therein.
If you insist on the need of an infallible authority to assure you which books are inspired, well, in that case you should not stop there either. You should then ask, “How do I know for sure that the church magisterium is infallible?” You can’t say, “Because the Bible says so” (since as a Catholic, you cannot be sure that the Bible is inspired apart from the teaching of the infallible church); and you can’t say either, “Because the church says so”.
You may wonder how people like Timothy, you and I, could know which books are inspired apart from an infallible church. Could we not trust in God who inspired the Bible in the first place? He gave the Scriptures to His people, and He could use them (weak and fallible as they are) to recognize His Word, and pass it on to future generations. I am convinced that this is exactly what God did.
justforcatholics- a protestant apologetic website
The Holy Scriptures are the property and the inheritance of the people of God and they pass them on from one generation to another. How did you first learn that the book called the “Holy Bible” is the Word of God? Was it not from your parents or from your Sunday School teacher or your pastor or some other Christian? Even though they are not infallible, the Lord used them to place in your hands His book and the doctrines therein.
If you insist on the need of an infallible authority to assure you which books are inspired, well, in that case you should not stop there either. You should then ask, “How do I know for sure that the church magisterium is infallible?” You can’t say, “Because the Bible says so” (since as a Catholic, you cannot be sure that the Bible is inspired apart from the teaching of the infallible church); and you can’t say either, “Because the church says so”.
You may wonder how people like Timothy, you and I, could know which books are inspired apart from an infallible church. Could we not trust in God who inspired the Bible in the first place? He gave the Scriptures to His people, and He could use them (weak and fallible as they are) to recognize His Word, and pass it on to future generations. I am convinced that this is exactly what God did.
justforcatholics- a protestant apologetic website
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PJM
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*** Joe, back up a bit a look at 1 Tim. 3:15 ***
1Tim.3: 15 if I [Paul] am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, [SINGULAR] which is the church of the living God, [SINGULAR] the pillar and bulwark of the truth. [SINGULAR] …This was written by a Catholic for Catholics ONLY!
Add to this your 2 Tim. 3:15-17 and ten add this
2nd. Peter Chapter One verse 20 “"First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. “
And then this:
2 Peter 3: 14 –17 "Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen".
And one can understand the mutiplicity of beliefs and signifiant number of different denominations that continue to increase daily.
Because “one can;” has never meant that One should!
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tester
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just trying to balance the rules of giving credit but not linking to “anti-catholic” websites.Personally, on the time I’ve visited, I frankly didn’t feel compelled to visit it again.
Jon
(but If they were pro-catholic then they would be Catholic
)
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oneGODoneCHURCH
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The simpilest answer is offtne the Best. Now I do not presume to spkeak for all Catholics, but to the best of my ability I will give it a shot. For Catholics the Church is the Pillar and Bulwork of Truth. This truth comes to the church through the teaching Magisterium, Tradition, and Scripture. The 3 are not seperable. Chirst first gave us the Teachers (apostles) they gave us the Traditions, and ( inspired by God) the Scritpure. The 3 are coneected and can not be seperated nor can they contradict one another. therefore if a Bishop were to teach something other that what we are given in scriopture or from Tradition he would be in error. Arias is an example.
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Brian_Culliton
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I asked the question just as I intended to. But it is nice to see that you referred to the Bible for your answer.
If you can boast that that the Roman Catholic Church can trace its roots to the apostles, I would suspect that you might know something about the history you are alluding to. So I guess I should be a little surprised that my question is not familiar to you. But, based on my experience here, I am not surprised.
It was Irenaeus, the bishop of Lyons Gaul (France) who answered the question I put to you, and it is so famous to students of church history I did not imagine that it would go unnoticed. The answer, according to Irenaeus, is the Gospel and the spirit of life. In fact, it is not just the Gospel he is referring to it’s the written Gospel. And that is what makes my reference so well known; it is the earliest mention of the four written Gospels extant. Here is the quote in context and referenced.
It is not possible that the Gospels can be either more or fewer in number than they are. For, since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds, while the Church is scattered throughout all the world, and the pillar and ground of the Church is the Gospel and the spirit of life; it is fitting that she should have four pillars, breathing out immortality on every side, and vivifying [give life to] men afresh. (A.H. 3:11:8)
Irenaeus’ reference to the fourfold Gospel being the ground and pillar of the church is so incidental, no reasonable argument could be made that suggests any debate took place concerning it in the second century. Irenaeus declared the written Gospel, which is the testimony of the apostles concerning Jesus Christ, and the hope of everyone who through faith believes in Him through their report, to be the very foundation of the church.
Tradition affirms that the written word is indeed our sufficient rule of faith.
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fbl9
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thus i am wrong in my understanding; i didn’t include the gospels, no mention of the rest of the new testment,
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oneGODoneCHURCH
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Just a few notes here. Firstly, at the time ST. Irenaues wrote this there was not a set cannon for the New Testement. Secondly, He was adrressing the use of the many gnostic writting that had come into use. Thirdly, his statement is to show that the True Gospel of Christ as has come to us through the Apostle’s is found in these Four writtings. And lastly, that these four writing are supported by Tradition.
Again it was not four another 200 or so years that the cannon of the New Testement was set. At that time the four Gospels had become part of the Tradition of the Church. just to restate St Irenaues was not refuring to the writtings as the Pillar, But to the Gospel of christ that is found in those four writting and not in the gnostic writting that were in circulation.
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Rightlydivide
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There was only one catholic church at this point in history, (as opposed to both catholic and protestant churches) - in different parts of the world, just as there is only one catholic church today, in different parts of the world, along with PC’s.
Were the churches that taught error and held incorrect doctrines the pillar of truth since John states they were in error?
For example, if a person walked into one these churches in 90 AD and learned error, would that church have the pillar of truth?
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Rightlydivide
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Hi Joe. In my opinion, this is not an answer.
Me
Me
You
I showed from Revelation that many of the seven congregations of the Catholic Church (I will use your terms) taught error. John says so. So were these congregations the pillar of truth since they taught error?
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PJM
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Alow me to iterject if I may?
The Pilar of the Church is the absolute and complete TRUTH [SINGULAR] on all matters of both Faith and Morals.
John 14: 16-17 “And [JESUS] I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.”
**John 17: 14-19 “I have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. 18 As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I [JESUS]consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.”
**
No other church, no other faith, no other religion can make factually this claim!
The “ground” of this Church is of course the Apostles whom Christ choose precisely for this task…
Eph. 4: 4 -8“There is one body [One Church] and one Spirit, One set of beliefs] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, [One Triune God] one faith, One set of doctrine and dogma] one baptism, By water in the Trinity] one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore it is said, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”
**Mt. 16: 15 ** He [Jesus] said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I singular] tell you, you are Peter, [singular] and on this rock singular] I will build my singular] church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. singular] 19 I God singular] will give you singular] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you singular] bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
*** built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone*, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit".]**
Would it surprise, PJM, if I said that in everything you have said here, I agree with you???
Of course, Paul’s words here predate the schism and the Reformation, . Therefore, until we are brought back to unity of the Church Militant (probably kicking and screaming
), or experience the truth of unity in the Church Triumphant, it is less clear as to where on earth in fact His one church is.Jon
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pablope
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Well, I did not refer to the Bible for my answer but to the teachings of the Church. As for the “Gospel and Spirit of life”…who is this referring to except Jesus Christ from which all flowed…the Gospel or Gospels and the Spirit of life…so Jesus is the still the answer for without Him, there is no Gospel and Spirit of Life.
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PJM
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Hi Jon,=JonNC;7198940]Would it surprise, PJM, if I said that in everything you have said here, I agree with you???
Of course, Paul’s words here predate the schism and the Reformation, . Therefore, until we are brought back to unity of the Church Militant (probably kicking and screaming
*And why is that? Can any other church date there continuing history directly from Christ on earth? And in your understanding * if the CC was “The One Church” then; how can it NOT BE the one church now, today and forever?
Love and payers my friend;
Pat**
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Brian_Culliton
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If the Gospel of Christ that has come down to us in these four writings is the true Gospel and tradition supports it, why should anyone listen to your leadership that tells us to believe things that are not supported by those writings?
There is no evidence from church history that suggests the four Gospels, Paul’s letters, 1st Peter, or 1st John were ever disputed, so tell me why these writings in and of themselves are not sufficient?
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