Where should Catholics morally stand on the issue of Israel?

  • Thread starter Thread starter scapularkid8
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

scapularkid8

Guest
In the past I’ve always supported the state because of what happened in the Second World War. Being Catholic, I have a special place in my heart for the Jewish Nation because they were the first to hear YHWH’s voice in the wilderness and they deserve better than what they’ve been handed out throughout history. However, after coming to college and making friends with Palestinians and Lebanese who honestly fear the State of Israel and it’s actions toward their people I don’t know where I stand anymore. Yes, the Jews have a right to live there, yes, the Palestinians are being terribly wronged, and yes, both sides have been incredibly violent. But at the end of the day, the State of Israel has a right to exist, not only as the center of the Hebrew Nation, but as a spiritual state of Jews, Christians, AND Muslims…no OR.

I don’t know where I, as a Catholic, in respect of the social justice of this situation should stand. My heart goes out to the Palestinians but I can’t ignore the fact that Israel has wondered the Earth for thousands of years and needs a home. 😊 🤷
 
The creation of Israel was ridiculous. What’s worse is that we decided to call it Israel so that normal people think that it is the biblical Israel and home to a bunch of pious Jews who finally have a place to leave in peace and solitude.
 
CapIV said:
The creation of Israel was ridiculous. What’s worse is that we decided to call it Israel so that normal people think that it is the biblical Israel and home to a bunch of pious Jews who finally have a place to leave in peace and solitude.
Click to expand...
Why was the creation ridiculous? Jews decided to migrate to Palestine, there was conflict between the Jews and Arabs, so a partition was decided.

If the Arabs had not attacked Israel, there would be a Palestinian state today.

God Bless
 
I think the idea of having a State of Israel was a bad idea that was implemented probably about as badly as such a thing could ever have been implemented.

What did people think was going to happen, when they marked off an arbitrary border that ran through people’s back gardens, evicted entire cities of people from their ancestral homes, and then imported a crowd of angry European Jews who had been displaced by the Holocaust?

Did they not realize that there were already people living there? Did they think, “Oh, the Arabs will just build new houses out in the desert some where - they won’t mind being evicted from their homes to make room for the Jews.” You have to really wonder what was going through their minds.
 
Well, obviously Israel has a right as it would be hypocritical for almost any nation to decry the method of their origins. Still how that it was originally implemented could have been handled better. Also we have to remember that the Palestinians have been wronged and are people to. A lot of mistakes were made after WWII in how that borders were drawn up (enter Yugoslavia).

Like many nations mistakes have been made while that these mistakes should be acknowledged nothing is served by dwelling on them. We should move forward with compassion. I think that if the majority of both the Palestinians and the Israelis had their way most of this wouldn’t even be an issue. As is so often the case though it is the hot heads he keep things stirred up.

U.S. also has played a part in this to by more or less disregarding the Palestinian position through most of this.
 
scapularkid8 said:
In the past I’ve always supported the state because of what happened in the Second World War… 😊 🤷
Click to expand...
I know of no direct teaching on this issue, however the Church teaches no person is to “terribly wrong” another person. Similarly the Church attempts to avoid civil governance largely because of the issues from the Roman Empire. The “State of Israel” was created by force with the land being taken from the Palestinians. Similarly the Palestinians lost any opportunity to govern themselves. The Church is to me amazingly indifferent to such issues. So in summary the mistreating is an issue but the governance is of little concern.
 
Would it be completely insane if I supported both parties?😃
 
I guess my whole dilemma is that, honestly, I would rather have the Holy Land in the hands of Jews than Muslims (which the majority of Palestinians are).

It gets sticky thought when you consider that a sizable minority of them are Catholic and Orthodox, but I just couldn’t trust a predominantly Muslim state (even if it were secular, the legislators themselves would not be) with sites and artifacts that are holy to both Christians and Jews, but mean nearly nothing to Islam. (i.e. the Shrine of the Book, the Negev, Tomb of the Prophets, ect.)

However, what the Israeli government is doing to the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza is not right. So in the end I guess I’ll just say I support the State of Israel, but not the nation’s (as in a cultural group ‘nation’) actions towards the Palestinians.
 
scapularkid8 said:
I guess my whole dilemma is that, honestly, I would rather have the Holy Land in the hands of Jews than Muslims (which the majority of Palestinians are).

It gets sticky thought when you consider that a sizable minority of them are Catholic and Orthodox, but I just couldn’t trust a predominantly Muslim state (even if it were secular, the legislators themselves would not be) with sites and artifacts that are holy to both Christians and Jews, but mean nearly nothing to Islam. (i.e. the Shrine of the Book, the Negev, Tomb of the Prophets, ect.)

However, what the Israeli government is doing to the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza is not right. So in the end I guess I’ll just say I support the State of Israel, but not the nation’s (as in a cultural group ‘nation’) actions towards the Palestinians.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I hear you, it’s tough. I agree with you that I also trust the Jews more with the land. They certainly seem to have done more with it. Yet I’m also man enough to admit I may just have a predjudice there. I don’t know.

I have to admit that while the Christian West’s history with the Jews is not a proud one we still see Jews as a “civilized” people. We may not care for their theology but in almost every other subject they’re seen as voices to be listened to or even taken advantage of (unless we need to blame someone for something). While Arabs and Muslims have always been seen as savages.

Sometimes, I wonder how much this mindset from us has affected things.
 
I support Israel and the Jewish people, although I condemn some of the government’s actions. The Jews have a right to be there, yet so do the Palestinians. Coming from an evangelical background, I can see the dangers of romanticizing the state of Israel. The True Israel is the Church.

And it’s not just the Jews and Muslims who mistreat one another over there; we Christians are doing the same to each other (Church of the Holy Sepulcher, anyone?).
 
BennyBoy89 said:
Church of the Holy Sepulcher, anyone?
Click to expand...
Oh wow, let’s save that for another time…the latest incident I think was in 2004 when one of the doors was left open by the Franciscans
during the Orthodox celebration of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross which the Orthodox saw as disrespectful apparently which led to a literal fistfight…“That they may be One” (John 17:6-19)…if only we could Christ, help us weak humans.
 
Some things should be remembered.

There has never been a Palestinian state. Never. If one is created in Gaza and the West Bank, it’s just as “ridiculous” as the creation of Isarel.

A “Palestinian state” would be even more artificial than Israel. Palestinians did not (and many still do not) think of them as “Palestinians” in the same way Germans think of themselves as “Germans”. They think of themselves as “Arabs”. Arab society is tribal, not national, as Iraq amply proves.

Most “Palestinians”, meaning those whose tribes tend to dominate in Palestine, live in Jordan. The majority of Jordanians are of the tribes we refer to as “Palestinian”. Jordan is at peace with Israel and Jordanians live relatively well by Middle East standards and far better than “Palestinians” in the West Bank or Gaza.

Many “Palestinians” would like to live in peace with Israel. I know some of them quite well. The only freely and fairly elected mayor of any Palestinian town (Nablus); an immensely popular man, was assassinated by a terrorist offshoot of Fatah because he encouraged Palestinians to do business with Israel. (And they did, to mutual benefit while he lived.)

Arabs in Israel live much better than Arabs in any other part of the Arab world except the Emirates, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. They enjoy far greater political freedom in Israel than in any Arab state.

Palestinians and Lebanese are right to fear Israel, but they would be more right to fear the terrorist criminal gangs that rule Gaza, the West Bank and much of Lebanon. It is only because of the aggression of those gangs that Israel ever attacks in those areas. They should fear Iran most of all, because that’s who really rules much of Lebanon and has Hamas in its pay. If the Christians in Lebanon, the West Bank and Gaza are ultimately driven away, it will be because of militant Islam, not Judaism.

The West Bank was part of Jordan. Gaza was part of Egypt. Perhaps they should go back, except that neither Jordan nor Egypt wants them back. Why would they? They are run by criminal gangs. It’s one thing for the U.S., which has excellent law enforcement and an economy to afford it, to put up with battling the Mafia, MS 13 and the like. But Egypt and Jordan can’t handle the gangs in “Palestine”, particularly since they’re supported by Iranian money and arms…

Jordan chased the Fatah organization and thousands of “Palestinians” out of Jordan. Was this because of racism or religious intolerance? No, it was because they were criminals and terrorists, and were an even greater threat to Jordan than they were to Israel.

The Palestinians’ do not owe their plight to Israel, but to the despicable Yasser Arafat and those Arab states that paid him off to keep him and his thugs from gunning them down themselves. In doing so, like Prohibition in the U.S. they financed the growth of a criminal/political cancer that has now been largely preempted by Iran. Seventy years after Prohibition, the Mob still largely runs a good part of Chicago despite the best law enforcement in the world. And some people, including American politicians still canoodle with the Mob.

And for some reason, people don’t accept it that professional killers, extortionists and thieves in the Middle East are what they are, just because they are in the Middle East and not in Chicago.
 
My question is, and has been, Why are we backing a nation with no real ability to stand without our backing?

And, since we’ve armed them, and provided almost everthing else, why don’t we take the leash off?

John
 
Ridgerunner said:
Some things should be remembered.
Click to expand...
Be carefull, you might confuse some with the facts like that.

God gave Abraham Canaan nearly 4000 years ago and Moses returned to it about 3000 years ago and up until 2000 years ago the Jews had been there as a nation. The borders of other nations and empires change, get destryoed or created just as Israel so with its statehood declared 60 years ago it is what it is. The one-state/two-state debate when on for over 40 years prior.

Palestine is like South America or Europe- a regional name. The state of Israel is in Palestine like Congo is in Africa. The ghetto between Israel and Jordan is a creation of the Arab/Muslims by their refusal to acknowledge modern Israel.

As a Catholic I have as much a problem with a Jewsih state as I do a Communist or Muslim state which is effectively none because we should all have the freedom to choose what we believe and want to live under.

Catholics/Christians can rightly claim holy sites within the holy land and one would hope a pure Jewsih state would not deny access. Religiously, I have no interest in the Temple being rebuilt but think the Mosque should go just as Israel should have the West Bank. I do not feel morally compelled to protect Israel because it is the promised land, but I would do so because it was.

As an American I have different thoughts about it’s support, our role in it, and how free the people are in Communist or Muslim countries to believe what they want. I wonder about our freedoms lately, too.
 
The argument that can be brought up about the west bank and gaza being so volatile is that the people are under so much suppression that they can’t psychologically do anything but respond with the behavior that will get them the attention or extra freedom they want which is mimicking those who control their area: the Israeli army.

This is such an issue and I’m still not sure where I stand. I guess I’m just content with saying that Israel (the people) have had a claim on that for literally millennia. That’s why I have to support it as a Jewish State. Pro-Palestinian movements start the account of the problem with Lawrence of Arabia and his actions on behalf of Britain, but the true history goes farther than that: it starts with Abraham and follows all the way up through when Israel did actually rule the area. The heritage and Biblical claim to the region is still no excuse to allow inhumane conditions to develop in the West Bank and Gaza. The terrorists gangs acting up there have brought the mortars and bullets flying to them themselves, but something needs to be done about the conditions every-day Palestinians in Gaza and the WB are living in.
 
Ridgerunner said:
…There has never been a Palestinian state. Never. If one is created in Gaza and the West Bank, it’s just as “ridiculous” as the creation of Isarel…
Click to expand...
roanoker said:
Ridge, old friend, you have absoutely nailed it!!!
Roanoker
Click to expand...
My question is how did others particularly Europeans get the right to take any of the land? And similarly what gives the Jews ruling power over non Jews?
 
scapularkid8 said:
The argument that can be brought up about the west bank and gaza being so volatile is that the people are under so much suppression that they can’t psychologically do anything but respond with the behavior that will get them the attention or extra freedom they want which is mimicking those who control their area: the Israeli army.
Click to expand...
This is an argument, and the “Palestinians” I know consider the Israelis tough customers but fundamentally honest and trustworthy. If they want “X” (like not lobbing missiles) and you comply, you’ll have no problem with them. Try to kill them and they’ll hurt you.

But really, the argument you cite is a little bit like saying neighborhoods in South L.A. are so volatile because the people are under police suppression, and the criminal gangs do what they do in imitation of the police. Granted, sometimes the police can be oppressive, but they are nowhere near as oppressive as the gangs, and the police are the way they are because of the peril presented by the gangs, not the other way around.
 
Texas_Roofer said:
My question is how did others particularly Europeans get the right to take any of the land? And similarly what gives the Jews ruling power over non Jews?
Click to expand...
What gave the Turks the right to own Palestine for centuries? What gave the Arabs the right before that?
What gave the Romans the right before that?
What gave the Greeks the right before that?
What gave the Jews the right before that?
What gave Europeans the right to occupy Europe?
What gave Europeans and Africans the right to occupy America?
What gave Zulus the right to occupy Natal?
What gave Boers the right to occupy the Transvaal?
What gives Swedes and Finns the right to rule Saami?
What gives Americans the right to rule American Indians?
What gives Africans the right to rule Chicago?
Waht gives Europeans the right to rule Butte?

One has to take the world as he finds it. If you want to go back far enough, nobody is really “from” where he now is. It just depends on what you think the “statute of limitations” ought to be for any particular people in any particular place.

You are aware that there were Jews in Palestine before there was ever an Israel, aren’t you? Jews that never left during the Diaspora? There were. You are aware that not all Israelis are the descendants of European Jews, aren’t you? You are aware that there were Jews and Greeks in Palestine before the Arabs took it, aren’t you?

Be careful in establishing your “staute of limitatons” period. You might displace more people than you intend.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top