Where the Bible is silent....

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PRmerger said:
I suppose he is permitted his own personal views on this?
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Sure. He can have an opinion, but it makes dialogue meaningless, if the definition means nothing to the dialogue partner. He can also have my opinion about what Baptists think of infant baptism, but it isn’t germane in a discussion between Lutherans and Catholics.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Let’s be clear that we are only speaking of Lutherans here, since you said our communion. The answer is yes. For example, the liberal synods are becoming so corrupt in social teaching that this Christian is willing to stand up and say so. The synod I belong to is not corrupt in this area, but a heterodox practice, which is contrary to the doctrine of the Church (CA Article XIV) is now being permitted. And I am standing up against it! And have been doing so for over a year now. I have taken it to the Church, which is what I’m supposed to do.

So, again, yes.

Jon
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So a Lutheran can depart from your view of Sola Scriptura?
 
JonNC said:
Let’s be clear that we are only speaking of Lutherans here, since you said our communion. The answer is yes. For example, the liberal synods are becoming so corrupt in social teaching that this Christian is willing to stand up and say so. The synod I belong to is not corrupt in this area, but a heterodox practice, which is contrary to the doctrine of the Church (CA Article XIV) is now being permitted.** And I am standing up against it! And have been doing so for over a year now**. I have taken it to the Church, which is what I’m supposed to do.

So, again, yes.

Jon
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Brother Jon if you are in need of someone taking you place you can count on me. However i dont think I can stand quite that long. :yawn::sleep:😃

Peace!!!
 
PRmerger said:
So a Lutheran can depart from your view of Sola Scriptura?
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sigh

I suspect a Lutheran can believe whatever he/she wants about SS. It isn’t a doctrine that binds the conscience of the believer. But the Church is obliged to use the practice in order to he doctrine and teaching accountable to the final norm

Jon
 
JonNC said:
sigh

I suspect a Lutheran can believe whatever he/she wants about SS. It isn’t a doctrine that binds the conscience of the believer. But the Church is obliged to use the practice in order to he doctrine and teaching accountable to the final norm

Jon
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Then I don’t think you should, ever, tell someone on this forum, “That’s not the definition of SS”.

What you mean is: “That’s not my definition of SS”.

And thank you for standing up with us and protesting this very weird, sinister, confounding path our society is taking.
 
PRmerger said:
Then I don’t think you should, ever, tell someone on this forum, “That’s not the definition of SS”.

What you mean is: “That’s not my definition of SS”.

And thank you for standing up with us and protesting this very weird, sinister, confounding path our society is taking.
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No. It’s the Lutheran definition. It doesn’t matter what I or someone else thinks The Lutheran definition is how the Church uses the practice. So, I not only can but will say on this forum what the definition is.
What doesn’t match, my friend, is I’m not coming to the conversation under the understanding that SS first and foremost personal interpretation. So when I tell you “my” definition I’m really portraying what I understand the Church usage and practice to be, which is described in the confessions.

Those of us in smaller traditions within the Church are depending on the CC to stay strong in the current battle. God bless the Catholic Church
 
JonNC said:
No. It’s the Lutheran definition. It doesn’t matter what I or someone else thinks The Lutheran definition is how the Church uses the practice. So, I not only can but will say on this forum what the definition is.
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Can you offer the reference for this, please?
 
JonNC said:
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What doesn’t match, my friend, is I’m not coming to the conversation under the understanding that SS first and foremost personal interpretation. So when I tell you “my” definition I’m really portraying what I understand the Church usage and practice to be, which is described in the confessions.
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And here is the part that I don’t understand, Jon.

You seem to be saying: Lutheran folks must conform to the Lutheran view.

But you’re also saying Catholics did not have to conform to the the Catholic view. (That is, one specific Catholic, 500 years ago).

Do you not see the cognitive dissonance this generates?
 
PRmerger said:
Can you offer the reference for this, please?
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Sure:
** Comprehensive Summary, Rule and Norm According to which all dogmas should be judged, and the erroneous teachings [controversies]that have occurred should be decided and explained in a Christian way.**
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1] 1. We believe, teach, and confess that the sole rule and standard according to which all dogmas together with [all] teachers should be estimated and judged are the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures of the Old and of the New Testament alone, as it is written Ps. 119:105: Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. And St. Paul: Though an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you, let him be accursed, Gal. 1:8.
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2] Other writings, however, of ancient or modern teachers, whatever name they bear, must not be regarded as equal to the Holy Scriptures, but all of them together be subjected to them, and should not be received otherwise or further than as witnesses, [which are to show] in what manner after the time of the apostles, and at what places, this [pure] doctrine of the prophets and apostles was preserved.
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3] 2. And because directly after the times of the apostles, and even while they were still living, false teachers and heretics arose, and symbols, i. e., brief, succinct [categorical] confessions, were composed against them in the early Church, which were regarded as the unanimous, universal Christian faith and confession of the orthodox and true Church, namely, the Apostles’ Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed, we pledge ourselves to them, and hereby reject all heresies and dogmas which, contrary to them, have been introduced into the Church of God.
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Jon
 
JonNC said:
Sure:

Jon
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Site, please?

Who is speaking in the above quote? And with what authority.

(I just realized that I know almost nothing about Lutheran hierarchy. Who speaks for Lutheranism authoritatively today?)
 
JonNC said:
Sure:

Jon
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It’s funny how scripture can be used.

Some take Paul’s statement “If we or an angel from heaven preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be accursed,” to be a support for the idea of sola scriptura. But perhaps it can be taken to mean just the opposite. Because Paul specifically says that the gold standard gospel to which all others must be compared, was the preached gospel. This was an oral gospel by which subsequently delivered, even written gospels (ie, scripture) must be judged. Paul included himself, “we,” along with angels from heaven in this. Paul preached the pure gospel first, before anything was written down. The only way to know what that initial gold standard spoken gospel was, is by remembering it. In other words, Tradition. Therefore it is Tradition that judges scripture, not the other way around.

The psalmist said, “Thy word” but of course God spoke his word audibly in addition to scripture, so that isn’t convincing as a support for SS either. God’s word is not identical to scripture.
 
PRmerger said:
And one ought not depart from this understanding and teaching, yes?
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One ought not depart from the doctrines of the Church. Note how the sectiob starts:
Comprehensive Summary, Rule and Norm According to which all dogmas should be judged, and the erroneous teachings [controversies]that have occurred should be decided and explained in a Christian way.
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SS is the way doctrines is judged. It is not a doctrine in and of itself.

Jon
 
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