Where the LDS are most in conflict with the teachings of the CCC

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I am combing through the CCC to find the most egregious divergencies between it and LDS teachings (past and repudiated, canonized, and presently claimed). It is my belief that most of them will be in terms of the nature and relationship between God and man. Therefore, we will see more in the first section of the CCC.
1, 41-43, 66, 67, 78, 151, 152, 202, 233, 234, 237, 240-242, 253, 268, 286, 355-359, 369, 370, 372, 387, 396-400, 404, 405, 412, , 476-477, 485

I have only reviewed up to #530. Be patient-- any you can add or delete so far?

This will force the Mormon apologists to actually read the CCC! 😃
 
41All creatures bear a certain resemblance to God, most especially man, created in the image and likeness of God. The manifold perfections of creatures—their truth, their goodness, their beauty—all reflect the infinite perfection of God. Consequently we can name God by taking his creatures’ perfections as our starting point, “for from the greatness and beauty of created things comes a corresponding perception of their Creator.”
42God transcends all creatures. We must therefore continually purify our language of everything in it that is limited, image-bound or imperfect, if we are not to confuse our image of God—“the inexpressible, the incomprehensible, the invisible, the ungraspable”—with our human representations.16 Our human words always fall short of the mystery of God.
43Admittedly, in speaking about God like this, our language is using human modes of expression; nevertheless it really does attain to God himself, though unable to express him in his infinite simplicity. Likewise, we must recall that “between Creator and creature no similitude can be expressed without implying an even greater dissimilitude”;17 and that “concerning God, we cannot grasp what he is, but only what he is not, and how other beings stand in relation to him.”
67Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations.”
78This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life, and worship perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 “The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer.”
233Christians are baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: not in their names,55 for there is only one God, the almighty Father, his only Son, and the Holy Spirit: the Most Holy Trinity.
234The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian faith and life. It is the mystery of God in himself. It is therefore the source of all the other mysteries of faith, the light that enlightens them. It is the most fundamental and essential teaching in the "hierarchy of the truths of faith."56 The whole history of salvation is identical with the history of the way and the means by which the one true God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, reveals himself to men “and reconciles and unites with himself those who turn away from sin.”
237The Trinity is a mystery of faith in the strict sense, one of the "mysteries that are hidden in God, which can never be known unless they are revealed by God."58 To be sure, God has left traces of his Trinitarian being in his work of creation and in his Revelation throughout the Old Testament. But his inmost Being as Holy Trinity is a mystery that is inaccessible to reason alone or even to Israel’s faith before the Incarnation of God’s Son and the sending of the Holy Spirit.
253The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity."83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e., by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215): “Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.”
These, I think are some of the most compelling. More quotes in a minute.
 
296We believe that God needs no pre-existent thing or any help in order to create, nor is creation any sort of necessary emanation from the divine substance.God creates freely “out of nothing”:
  • If God had drawn the world from pre-existent matter, what would be so extraordinary in that? A human artisan makes from a given material whatever he wants, while God shows his power by starting from nothing to make all he wants.
700The finger. "It is by the finger of God that [Jesus] cast out demons."If God’s law was written on tablets of stone “by the finger of God,” then the “letter from Christ” entrusted to the care of the apostles, is written "with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of human hearts."The hymn Veni Creator Spiritus invokes the Holy Spirit as the “finger of the Father’s right hand.” “At all times and in every race, anyone who fears God and does what is right has been acceptable to him. He has, however, willed to make men holy and save them, not as individuals without any bond or link between them, but rather to make them into a people who might acknowledge him and serve him in holiness. He therefore chose the Israelite race to be his own people and established a covenant with it. He gradually instructed this people. . . . All these things, however, happened as a preparation for and figure of that new and perfect covenant which was to be ratified in Christ . . . the New Covenant in his blood; he called together a race made up of Jews and Gentiles which would be one, not according to the flesh, but in the Spirit.”
782The People of God is marked by characteristics that clearly distinguish it from all other religious, ethnic, political, or cultural groups found in history: 1. It is the People of God: God is not the property of any one people. But he acquired a people for himself from those who previously were not a people: “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation.” 2. One becomes a member of this people not by a physical birth, but by being “born anew,” a birth “of water and the Spirit,” that is, by faith in Christ, and Baptism. 3. This People has for its Head Jesus the Christ (the anointed, the Messiah). Because the same anointing, the Holy Spirit, flows from the head into the body, this is “the messianic people.” 4. “The status of this people is that of the dignity and freedom of the sons of God, in whose hearts the Holy Spirit dwells as in a temple.” 5. "Its law is the new commandment to love as Christ loved us."This is the “new” law of the Holy Spirit.6. Its mission is to be salt of the earth and light of the world. This people is “a most sure seed of unity, hope, and salvation for the whole human race.” 7. Its destiny, finally, “is the Kingdom of God which has been begun by God himself on earth and which must be further extended until it has been brought to perfection by him at the end of time.”
It is necessary to conclude that Catholocism and Mormonism have very little in common. Even the foundational doctrines of both churches are wildly different from each other.
 
I am combing through the CCC to find the most egregious divergencies between it and LDS teachings (past and repudiated, canonized, and presently claimed). It is my belief that most of them will be in terms of the nature and relationship between God and man. Therefore, we will see more in the first section of the CCC.
1, 41-43, 66, 67, 78, 151, 152, 202, 233, 234, 237, 240-242, 253, 268, 286, 355-359, 369, 370, 372, 387, 396-400, 404, 405, 412, , 476-477, 485

I have only reviewed up to #530. Be patient-- any you can add or delete so far?

This will force the Mormon apologists to actually read the CCC! 😃
Jerusha,
I’m not seeing all the differences that you are, at least not at the explicit level in what the CCC says. There is always room for disagreement at the level of nuance and what you think is implied but not clearly stated.

I commented on the initial references, with most differences centered on Trinity vs Godhead. I focused on what was explicitely stated.

1 - RCC believe we are **‘adopted’ **while LDS believe we are simpleyhis children. Everything else looks in agreement

41 we both agree man was created in the image and likeness of God. Other statement that all other perfections of creatures in thier greatness and beauty exhibit perceptions of our creator is a confusing claim. Net, I’m confused but don’t know there is conflict

42 LDS agree that God trancends all creatures
  1. Seems to state that RCC are unable to express, or cannot describe God? LDS believe in the mysteries of God but don’t dwell on it in this fashion. I think LDS theology tries to make our Heavenly Father understandable. IMHO, Catholics in turn focus on Mother Mary because RCC theology has made her accessible (unlike God the Father)
66 Yes, we disagree on continuing Revelation

67 Already covered in 66 Though, I’m not clear on what it means for the RCC Authority to formally recognize private revelation.

78 This paragraph is not describing God, so no specific disagreement. However, we disagree in that Tradition is a source of “RCC Dogma/Doctrine” that is not accepted by the LDS

151 LDS agree that one must believe in both the Son as well as the Father. LDS also agree that one must reach the Father through the Son.

152 LDS agree with the quote “One cannot believe in Jesus Christ without sharing in his Spirit., It is the Holy Spirit who reveals to men who Jesus is.”

202 LDS agree that there is only one God the Father whom we must love with all our heart, mind and soul.

233 LDS also the sacrament of baptize “in the *name *of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”

234 LDS do not agree with the RCC defintion of Trinity. This is a big difference

237 see 234

240 Confirming amount of differences would need greater discussion on the implied meanings of this paragraph.

241 Confirming amount of differences would need greater discussion on the implied meanings of this paragraph.

242 LDS do not agree with the council at Nicaea

253 LDS differ, we believe in ONE GODHEAD instead of the TRINITY

268 I don’t see any conflict here with LDS doctrine.

286 I think we agree with most of this parapgrah as well. Are you reading the final sentence as God created Ex nihilo? LDS do not limit God’s power because we may disagree on the original Hebrew meaning in the Old Testament. LDS certainly believe the world (and Universe) was created by the word of God
 
234 LDS do not agree with the RCC defintion of Trinity. This is a big difference
Exactly what is the difference then, we know the CC doctrines, you have the Trinity doctrine LDS for God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

Depending on what day it is we seem to hear completely different storys. So whats the story today? Pehaps its the level of understanding by those participating here to be fair.

The conficting teachings also include, Joe Smith in not considered a prophet by the CC or in fact any of the Apostolic Churchs, his editing of the Bible in particular Genesis and Matthew is, well to put it politely…is… disturbing!

The Historical/Archaeological x geology= evidence, supporting Joe Smith, and this “theory” of civilization in America/USA simply doesn’t exist from 4-AD. 🤷 Not one shread of evidence has ever been provided. …NONE!

The Works such as BoM and all that follow are simply recognized as “fiction” by the CC.

The postion of the Mormon church by the Catholic Church is “clear”. And could be read.

Complicated by the fact is that LDS/Mormons come here daily and their story changes daily.

We still haven’t resolved the great temple “secret” of “God the Father was a man, and you could become a God” couse their resides the reason for the altered book of Mose’s in Genesis, what 1-24 or 27? Free-Mason handshakes, meeting God behind the Temple curtain. Whoa, little bit avoidance happening I would say. All in contrast with CC teaching BTW.

Here alone resides the connection to the Free-Masons and Mormons/LDS which for years created a problem to the Free-Masons, which BTW I hear this is resolved now. Well there remains another seperation of the Catholic Church with the Free-Masons. Just another fact of life.

Complicated by loose quotes of ECFs, in one sentence quotations such as “And you will be ‘like’ God” to replace the ‘you… “will” be God’… theory. Talk about a stretch to fit your wants. This eems to be the new “attack” on the CC. So please do supply all the information of “exactly” where your quotes come from. Not to repetitive, but just to quickly resolve any confusion. If they are not Saints in the CC? Then their would is judged on that merit “first”.

Its not a mystery we know God is a spirit, and we know “biblically” Christ states and you will become spirit. But you will NOT become a GOD. And being like GOD doesn’t imply being GOD.

We disagree that God had a Wife in fact Biblically speaking it impossible. That is of course logical when you believe God was once a man. We could say, well why? Why? Well once again the BIble and Jesus Christ are very clear on this.

Seems to me there’s a set predetermnied, outlined teaching which probly moves from week to week etc, which not only discourages Biblical Context/Content but avoids it. In fact I could see this break occuring no other way.

Polygamy, done away with in the New-Testament, and once again spoke on by Jesus Christ. Course here once again Joe Smith would be the source of disruption in and after 2000-years of Christian teaching. Another denial by LDS which of course never goes away. Yet continues to surface every few years…why is that? The only rational conclusion is it still must be taught.

BTW if we are to use ECFs, post where the quotes came from, Source, writting, homily, book and page etc… or cut and paste the entire context. Very easy to interpret incorrectly otherwise. Of course in all fairness to Catholics and LDS/Mormons.

One week the Apostolic Church was in “apostasy” one week it isn’t. So what it is this week? Course no-one knows “when” the church went into apostasy so their is the Strawman. Another denial which of course never goes away.

So one must conclude the level of deception is astounding. Then thats “rationalized” by the LDS/Mormons as being …well they must be Milk Fed first!

You don’t see a “PROBLEM” with any of this? 🤷

Hey, in all truth I wish you all the “luck” in the world, and really have no desire to debate fiction in a strawman sense, for that is what all this comes back around to. A fairy-tale called a fact, based on no facts, but the ones the LDS invented. Is there another way to look at this? I seem to be missing it? So if I am missing something here? Please do explain.

Perhaps its me since I tend to think in a mathmatical sense. And the inverted process with LDS falls apart seriously quick, in fact I see not one aspect where truth exists?

Its like this, we can state E=MC squared, but the equation must prove out in all facets, and this is the point theory simply remains theory. And in this case, not even based on a good educated guess.

Where is the Historical Evidence to support “anything” promoted by the Mormons or LDS or any one of its congregations which broke away. Be it Joe Smith the III the 3 book or the 4, whatever. Where is the evidence.

In other words stating you believe what we believe isn’t so…for in truth had this been a fact? Then you be in the One Holy Apostolic Church. And here the “truth” is self-evident.

The point of Genesis is also becomes irrelevant in that salvation comes “ONLY” through the CROSS. However you do not believe in Original Sin, so what was quoted in ROMANs? an error by St Paul? Whats the purpose of the Redemption? What is the purpose of the WORD becoming Man and dwelling among us, to reach His time[Biblically speaking] which is the Cross?

Peace and Grace:thumbsup:😉
 
I thank both of you. I have been debating and interacting with LDS for so long, that I need to get back to Catholic Doctrine. They try to tell us what we believe, and we gradually slide into what they tell us. Thank God for the CCC. I found a lot more, but will continue with this angle.

The apostasy that the Mormons claim is actually their apostasy into Gnosticism.
 
and we gradually slide into what they tell us, or else distort Catholic Doctrine into something in even more opposition to Mormonism.
 
More, and will be done. 355-359, 369, 370, 372, 387, 396,-400, 404, 405, 412, 476, 477, 485, 659, 689, 690, 700, 722-726, 736, 756- 757, 771, 776, 781, 782, 790, 791, 814, 843, 844.
 
BTW if we are to use ECFs, post where the quotes came from, Source, writting, homily, book and page etc… or cut and paste the entire context. Very easy to interpret incorrectly otherwise. Of course in all fairness to Catholics and LDS/Mormons.
Did you note that Tony stated agreement with parts of many passages, but did not deal with the disagreement of other parts of those same passages. Again, CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT. This especially deals with the Catholic belief that man’s imperfect mind is unable to comprehend the infinite nature of God. When Mormons try to define God, they limit Him. This is especially true with 151, 152, and 202.
 
The problem with Mormonism is who is the interpreter?

…giving them the CCC’s …they willfully misunderstand them…and do not think in context…they see any phrase that appears to them as man being god or having cognizance in the prior world…as validation of their aims. They are here to deny their past, give Catholics and other lurkers the impression they are no different…and hope to bring people to their side.

They cannot recognize God speaking for Himself in Scripture, thinking it is some premortal spirit man talking…Big problem!
 
Kathleen, you seem to avoid what is explicitly stated in docrtine when you don’t like it, and claim YOU understand the real meaning from greater context. Context is important but, you should not ignore what is explicitely stated.

This OP referenced specific CCC paragraphs and I commented on what was explicitly stated.

The fact that the OP exaggerated the issue does not mean there isn’t an issue. Our real differences, such as Trinity vs Godhead, Marion doctrines, RCC Tradition etc are real and substantial. No need to fabricate diffferences when the legitimate ones suffice.
The problem with Mormonism is who is the interpreter?

…giving them the CCC’s …they willfully misunderstand them…and do not think in context…they see any phrase that appears to them as man being god or having cognizance in the prior world…as validation of their aims. They are here to deny their past, give Catholics and other lurkers the impression they are no different…and hope to bring people to their side.

They cannot recognize God speaking for Himself in Scripture, thinking it is some premortal spirit man talking…Big problem!
 
The fact that the OP exaggerated the issue does not mean there isn’t an issue. Our real differences, such as Trinity vs Godhead, Marion doctrines, RCC Tradition etc are real and substantial. No need to fabricate diffferences when the legitimate ones suffice.
Exactly. My anti-Mormon sentiment sometimes interferes with logical processes. You know, intellect is important, too. Could you go through the rest of the list sometime when you have the time?
 
Did you note that Tony stated agreement with parts of many passages, but did not deal with the disagreement of other parts of those same passages. Again, CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT. This especially deals with the Catholic belief that man’s imperfect mind is unable to comprehend the infinite nature of God. When Mormons try to define God, they limit Him. This is especially true with 151, 152, and 202.
Don’t get ridiculous here Jerusha

You’ve proffered maybe 30+ passages without a shred of commentary on your reasoning – **Can I call that LAZY? **

I’ve responded with a quick read, focusing on the explicit statement. In general, I assumed the initial sentence explained the core meaning or intent of that CCC paragraph. Where I saw something special further into the paragraph, I did comment.

If you want a treatise response to each one then you should do your part
  • Start a separate thread for each one
  • Initiate the discussion by explaining your view on the difference.
 
Not lazy here. And I was a leader in the recent rebellion against too many LDS-related threads. I refuse to monopolize this forum with that issue.

We have more than just LDS to deal with. We also have the other Restorationist churches, and the minor quibbling with closer-related churches here.

However, I can state the disagreements with the additional list, but it will take some time.
 
I think the big problem is terminology definitions. You almost need a Mormon to read a Catholic dictionary before making any progress.
When Mormons see words the recognize, they may be fooled in thinking they understand what the Catholic Church is talking about. Their God, heaven, hell, trinity, salvation, priesthood, Jesus, and covenant, just to name a few, are all redefined terms.

Peace
David
 
296 Mormons believe that God created the earth out of pre-existent matter, denying His awesome power.

359 There is an LDS teaching that Adam is Christ.

369 Mormons believe that women are inferior to men. Therefore, women need a man to, as it were, draw them through the curtain.

370 LDS believe that God is male.

372 LDS believe that people, male and female, are incomplete without marriage. Therefore, ALL must marry.

396, 397, 398, 399, 400, 404, 405 Mormonism alternately denies and radically redefines original sin.

485 There is an LDS teaching that God, with a physical body, impregnated Mary.

689, 690 Again, LDS defines the “Godhead” of the Trinity as three separate persons working together.

700 Again, LDS believe that God has a physical body. This states that this is only figurative language.

722-726 LDS deny Marian doctrines. In fact, they ignore and degrade her.

756 LDS believe that this image represents a physical gathering of Jesus’ followers (IE Utah) rather than a spiritual one.

790 LDS do not believe that through the Sacraments, we become representatives of Christ in the world.

791, 814 LDS believe that some races and cultures are superior to others

843 LDS believe that all other religions are abominations. Recent apologists say that there some truth in all, but that is only borrowing from this text.

844 LDS is a Gnostic religion

1032 Baptism for the dead is unnecessary.
 
Jerusha,
**Please look up ‘Prooftexting’ since it explains many of your claims. You are ****throwing spaghetti against the wall, trying to see what sticks - a very sectarian way of discussing theology. It is not fruitful since you just keep throwing new spaghetti when I address your points. **

**Quick comments in-line on selected sections. **I had to delete content to fit in the max character count

296 Mormons believe that God created the earth out of pre-existent matter, denying His awesome power.
The ‘pre-existent matter’ is an issue of Hebrew translation in the OT. LDS have no revelation on the source of said matter. I believe God created all matter and caused the Big Bang.

LDS do not limit God’s awesome power


359 There is an LDS teaching that Adam is Christ.
Yes, this was stated by BY
NO, this is not doctrine.


369 Mormons believe that women are inferior to men.
NO, this is not true

370 LDS believe that God is male.
Yes. Why do Catholics and scripture call him Father? Why are all Catholic artistic portrayals of a male? Don’t Catholics believe Adam was made in his image? Net there are plenty of indicators Catholics imply God is male.

396, 397, 398, 399, 400, 404, 405
Yes, LDS do not agree with the RCC on ‘original sin’

485 There is an LDS teaching that God, with a physical body, impregnated Mary.
NO, this is completely untrue - LDS believe Christ was born of the VIRGIN Mary who was** was ‘overshadowed’ by the Holy Ghost. Exactly how this happened is also a mystery to LDS.**

700 Again, LDS believe that God has a physical body. This states that this is only figurative language.
• Yes, we disagree on God the Father but we agree on Christ the Son
• How do you explain that RCC believes 1/3 of the Trinity has a
literal physical body (Jesus)

**• To some extent you must believe God has a body (I admit to being **confused by the Trinity)

722-726 LDS deny Marian doctrines. In fact, they ignore and degrade her.
Not true! LDS have never degraded Mary in our doctrine
• Immaculate conception is irrelevant since we don’t believe in original sin
• LDS do believe in the virgin birth

**• LDS do not take Mary’s ascension as doctrine – no revelation on the **topic. Speculation is this did not happen
**• LDS do not know whether Mary remained a virgin – no revelation on **the topic. Speculation is Joseph and Mary had normal relations.
Nothing that LDS believe or speculate on about Mary degrades her


790 LDS do not believe that through the Sacraments, we become representatives of Christ in the world.

Don’t follow you. LDS believe our goal is to become Christlike in this world through faith and obedience to his commandments, which does include the sacraments

791, 814 LDS believe that some races and cultures are superior to others
NO, this is not true. However I will admit that both Catholics and LDS have histories that appear racist in modern light. We both see the sins of men rather than racist doctrine.

843 LDS believe that all other religions are abominations. Recent apologists say that there some truth in all, but that is only borrowing from this text.
Stop conflicting yourself, first you said we believe and then we don’t?** I feel you are Prooftexting to select a historical quote out of context and insist all LDS believe that Prooftext.**
 
I am fully aware that I am prooftexting. I will then separate out the chaff from the wheat. LDS are vey diverse. Some follow one teaching, some another because of the many conflicts within. Thank you for your feedback.

Again, I am only testing ideas.
 
I am fully aware that I am prooftexting. I will then separate out the chaff from the wheat. LDS are vey diverse. Some follow one teaching, some another because of the many conflicts within. Thank you for your feedback.

Again, I am only testing ideas.
Sorry but I find that meaningless since it applies to Catholics and Baptists to the same degree
We all have members who do not fully understand all aspects of doctrine (including me)
We all have had church leaders who have said things that are confusing or may even appear to directly conflict official doctrine.

In general, I feel the LDS do a good job in trying to ‘Catechise’ their members, with 3 hrs of service on Sunday and the expectation that you self study every day by reading scripture. However, errors still exist.

By your logic I can insisist the RCC doesn’t really believe in Transubstantion simply because a PEW poll shows a 45% of US Catholics don’t agree with the teaching as doctrine Failures in catechism do not equal bad doctrine.
 
By your logic I can insisist the RCC doesn’t really believe in Transubstantion simply because a PEW poll shows a 45% of US Catholics don’t agree with the teaching as doctrine Failures in catechism do not equal bad doctrine.
Agreed, that is the case with many Catholics. Growing up in Hancock County, Illinois, and going to public schools, it was especially difficult. But perhaps not as difficult as Utah would have been. Many of the difficulties in inconsistencies in belief among Mormons have more to do with inconsistencies between teachings.
 
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