Where to begin?

[jmcrae]

You are sadly mistaken. Go to the Catholic Encyclopedia and look up “Original Sin.” This is pretty fundamental and worth your while to spend time trying to understand.

Original sin means that we do not have God’s grace, and that whatever we do (good or bad) is of no effect, regarding our ultimate destination after death - those who die without God’s grace (even if they have never sinned) go to Hell.

God’s grace normally comes to us through the Sacraments. (God could also give grace in some other way that is unknown to us; the Sacraments are for our benefit, not for God’s benefit.)

Baptism is the first Sacrament, and our souls are incapable of receiving any of the other Sacraments until after we are baptized.

Before you bring it up, it is true that someone might try to take them - for example, an unbaptized person might try to receive Holy Communion, or might try to go to Confession - but since he is not baptized yet, he cannot receive any grace from those sacraments, yet - even if the priest is unaware that the person is not yet baptized, and thinks he is administering a Sacrament to the person.

The whole of Scripture refutes the idea that we are inherently good. If we were inherently good, then whence all the sin that surrounds us? And why the need for God to send His Son? Salvation is a free gift of God, but it was not free to obtain. God paid a very high price. There is a reason why He paid that price!

Jesus died on the Cross for us in order to give us God’s grace - not to make us good.

He made us good at the time of the Creation, in Genesis.

Sin came into the world because we lacked grace; not because we lacked goodness. People were kind to their children and shared with the poor before Jesus came. Jesus did not feed the 5,000 in order to teach them how to share - they already knew how to share. He fed the 5,000 in order to demonstrate His providence - to make us understand that we can lack nothing of what we need, as long as we are with Him. That the things we give up in order to become followers of His will be multiplied thousands-fold.

 

[fbl9]

I am having a very difficult time communicating with you. I did not state that there are none who seek God, God said it! I am pointing to what God said because, of course, it is true. You are arguing (or at least it appears) that God is wrong and that man does seek God. I am speaking of unregenerate man here. Maybe that is where the confusion is (I hope!).

 

[guanophore]

By the very fact that you have sought God, you make St.Paul a liar.

This is one of the elements of Reformed theology I have always found confusing and puzzling. It seems like there are so many scriptures about seeking God, yet Calvanisim maintains that we are constitutionally incapable of doing so.

sorry but the instance you quote from the gospel doesn’t apply or fit in with what you are saying. This tradtion doesn’t clarify but fills the pockets.

I think it is very difficult, especially for Fundamentalists, to understand that much of ST is about how to understand the Scriptures. On another thread, a member is asking for “lists”, as if a world view could be reduced to a “list”.

 

[guanophore]

You are sadly mistaken. Go to the Catholic Encyclopedia and look up “Original Sin.” This is pretty fundamental and worth your while to spend time trying to understand. The whole of Scripture refutes the idea that we are inherently good. If we were inherently good, then whence all the sin that surrounds us? And why the need for God to send His Son?

No, it is not a mistake. Although I agree with you that study of original sin is well worthwhile, especially since the Reformers redefined it, and now have a “gospel” that represents a significant departure from what Jesus taught.

God created man, and called him “good”. This is what it means to be inherintly “good”. God does not make junk.

The image of God He created in man has been wounded by sin, though. THrough the free gift of God that image can achieve the beauty He created it to have.

 

[guanophore]

I am having a very difficult time communicating with you. I did not state that there are none who seek God, God said it! I am pointing to what God said because, of course, it is true. You are arguing (or at least it appears) that God is wrong and that man does seek God. I am speaking of unregenerate man here. Maybe that is where the confusion is (I hope!).

Of course it comes from the inspired Word of God, and therefore, is inerrant. What errs is the interpretation you have assigned to it. You have taken it out of context.

Psalms 14

14:1 To the choirmaster. Of David.

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds,
there is none that does good.

2 The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
to see if there are any that act wisely,
that seek after God.

3 They have all gone astray, they are all alike corrupt;
there is none that does good,
no, not one.

4 Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers
who eat up my people as they eat bread,
and do not call upon the LORD?

5 There they shall be in great terror,
for **God is with the generation of the righteous.
6 You would confound the plans of the poor,
but the LORD is his refuge. **7 O that deliverance for Israel would come out of Zion!
When the LORD restores the fortunes of his people,
Jacob shall rejoice, Israel shall be glad.

in the very same passage, the Psalmist makes reference to the “generation of the righteous”.

Paul is using this passage in Romans to make his point that there are faithless Jews, as well as faithless Gentiles, and the faithless Jews are no better off spiritually just because they are Jews. All (both Jew and Gentile) need the grace of God to become righteous.

Is your contention that human nature is inherently good and therefore seeks after God? This is the way I am understanding you, so please clarify if I am wrong.

Mankind is inherintly good Gen 1:26-2:1
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…
" 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 And God blessed them…
…” And it was so. 31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.

Mankind is good because he is made in the image and likeness of God, and because He created us “good”.

Sin wounded that goodness, so that we are no longer able to walk in it. Yet, God has fashioned mankind with an inherent desire to seek after Him, to find HIm.

 

[fbl9]

Solus perhaps i have difficulty in imaging none seek God Being regenerated as an infant, I find it impossible not to have sought God.

 

[guanophore]

Solus perhaps i have difficulty in imaging none seek God Being regenerated as an infant, I find it impossible not to have sought God.

Even the unregenerate seek God. This is part of how He created us. My Latin brethren call it pre-venient grace, and some of my separated brethren call it “drawing” grace.

Acts 17:24-31
4 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything. 26 And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. Yet he is not far from each one of us, 28 for

‘In him we live and move and have our being’;

as even some of your poets have said,

‘For we are indeed his offspring.’

29 Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the Deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, a representation by the art and imagination of man. 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all men by raising him from the dead."

The Aposltes is saying that God created mankind with the desire to seek him. This seeking may culminate in the hope of finding Him.

What Paul is saying is that the Jew is just as separated from God by refusal to respond to His call to repentance, and that the Gentile is just as eligible to know Him by responding to His grace.

 

[Solus_Christus]

On what grounds would you reject that the HS is the Soul of the Church? How can the Body of Christ exist without a Soul, and how can His Body have any other Soul?

Two responses and then a request for you:

First of all, spirit and soul are two different things, but you are confounding them here.

Secondly, the Church as the body of Christ is an analogy and, as with all analogies (even good ones), they break down at some point. Your statement is well past that point.

Request: I have never heard this line of argument before. Please provide me with a document or catechism where this idea is taught so I can know this is not just your own idea. The document, by the way, specifically needs to use the term “soul of the Church” in reference to the Holy Spirit, since that is the point of contention. Thanks in advance!

 

[Solus_Christus]

They chose the term “hypostatic union” to describe the will and natures of Christ. Jesus is fully human, and fully God. The divine will does not stamp out the human, and vice versa. The Church, His Body/Bride, is similar-human nature, and divine nature. Neither invalidates or cancels the other.

I am not contesting the hypostatic union here and, besides, that is a different subject. I am questioning your last sentence, which appears to me to be an innovation of your own making. What you are here proposing appears contrary to the Trinity. In fact, it sounds like you are proposing a 4-in-1. Please tell me I am wrong.

 

[Solus_Christus]

Jesus died on the Cross for us in order to give us God’s grace - not to make us good.

Certainly Jesus’ work on the cross is God’s gift of grace to us. I will not argue that point. You say, however, that we are “good.” Please help me to reconcile this assertion with Christ’s words:

Mark 10:18 “And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.’”

He made us good at the time of the Creation, in Genesis.

I will agree with you there.

Sin came into the world because we lacked grace; not because we lacked goodness.

And all this time I thought it had something to do with Adam’s disobedience to God:

Romans 5:12 “Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned”

 

[Solus_Christus]

God created man, and called him “good”. This is what it means to be inherintly “good”. God does not make junk.

The image of God He created in man has been wounded by sin, though. THrough the free gift of God that image can achieve the beauty He created it to have.

So…we are sinful but good? Please explain. I will agree with you that God does not make junk. We are, after all, created in His image. For that reason alone every human being has dignity and worth. Nevertheless, that does not mean that we are good.

 

[Solus_Christus]

This is one of the elements of Reformed theology I have always found confusing and puzzling. It seems like there are so many scriptures about seeking God, yet Calvanisim maintains that we are constitutionally incapable of doing so.

Allow me to explain: No one seeks God of their own accord until prompted by God. God, in His grace, draws His elect to Him. Please do not get hung up on the word “elect.” Not only is it found in Scripture, but the RCC uses the term also. I do not want to argue predestination here. I am pretty sure, however, the RCC teaches that God’s grace is what enables us to move toward Him. In other words, He makes the first move. Am I wrong?

 

[Solus_Christus]

Of course it comes from the inspired Word of God, and therefore, is inerrant. What errs is the interpretation you have assigned to it. You have taken it out of context.

Psalms 14

14:1 To the choirmaster. Of David.

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds,
there is none that does good.

2 The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
to see if there are any that act wisely,
that seek after God.

3 They have all gone astray, they are all alike corrupt;
there is none that does good,
no, not one.

4 Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers
who eat up my people as they eat bread,
and do not call upon the LORD?

5 There they shall be in great terror,
for **God is with the generation of the righteous.
6 You would confound the plans of the poor,
but the LORD is his refuge. **7 O that deliverance for Israel would come out of Zion!
When the LORD restores the fortunes of his people,
Jacob shall rejoice, Israel shall be glad.

in the very same passage, the Psalmist makes reference to the “generation of the righteous”.

Paul is using this passage in Romans to make his point that there are faithless Jews, as well as faithless Gentiles, and the faithless Jews are no better off spiritually just because they are Jews. All (both Jew and Gentile) need the grace of God to become righteous.

I do not know about fbl9, but apparently your answer to my question is that, yes, you are talking about the regenerate seeking God (since you mention faithless Jews and Gentiles as those who do not seek God). In this case we are in agreement since God has already inclined the hearts of the regenerate towards Him, and they do seek Him. So where is the error in my interpretation?

 

[Solus_Christus]

Mankind is inherintly good Gen 1:26-2:1
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…
" 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 And God blessed them…
…” And it was so. 31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.

Mankind is good because he is made in the image and likeness of God, and because He created us “good”.

Sin wounded that goodness, so that we are no longer able to walk in it. Yet, God has fashioned mankind with an inherent desire to seek after Him, to find HIm.

Blaise Pascal says that we all have a God shaped vacuum in our hearts. I agree with him and with you; We (humans) were made for worship. The problem, however, is that until God’s operative grace begins to work in us, we are inclined to worship anything and everything other than God (and hence all of the idolatry in the world). Once again, Paul states this pretty clearly in Romans chapter 1:

" For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen."

 

[Solus_Christus]

Even the unregenerate seek God. This is part of how He created us. My Latin brethren call it pre-venient grace, and some of my separated brethren call it “drawing” grace.

As long as we understand that the unregenerate seek God because God first started to draw us to Himself (hence the meaning of prevenient) then we are in agreement. If anyone is trying to argue (as I thought fbl9 was) that the unregenerate seek God apart from this grace, then I will have to disagree.

 

[Solus_Christus]

Still has no bearing on wether one seeks God or not.

God’s love has no bearing on whether or not we seek God. Apparently, then, you disagree with guanophore. But I ask you, what is God’s grace to us if not a demonstration of His love?

 

[Solus_Christus]

Why then is there any releigions in the world if man is not seeking God.

If you had said small “g” I would have agreed with you. See my previous response to guanophore where I mentioned Blaise Pascal. The answer I gave him there is also the answer to this question of yours. Verse 21 of Romans 1 explains why there are religions in the world other than the one true religion, namely that the unregenerate do not honor God or give thanks to Him and therefore exchange the truth about God for a lie (resulting in false religions).

 

[Solus_Christus]

Please quite making false accusations.

Questions are not accusations, fbl9.

 

[Solus_Christus]

It would seem we have come full circle now. I was lacking the appropriate theological term, but thanks to guanophore for supplying it (prevenient grace). So can we all agree now that it is God that makes the first move and that absent this prevenient grace man would not seek God, but would rather make for himself gods (“resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles”)?

It is pretty bad when we have to argue about the things we agree on, and does not leave much hope that we can fruitfully discuss those things on which we actually disagree.

 

[guanophore]

the Church as the body of Christ is an analogy and, as with all analogies (even good ones), they break down at some point. Your statement is well past that point.

If it is only an analogy, then why does Paul say that having sex with a prostitute is joining the members of Christ with her?

1 Cor 6:15-18
Shall I therefore take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who joins himself to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two shall become one flesh.” 17 But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

Jesus does not separate Himself from His One Body, the Church. To make my point, I will ask you two questions while I am preparing an answer for yours.

Who does Saul of Tarsus persecute?

And who does Jesus say Saul of Tarsus is persecuting?