Where to find a legit Novus Ordo?

[cecilia97]

there are a lot more than 7 now! the ACA came ion under the Ordinariete system so there are about i think 100 more or something close to that…and more groups consider that system every day!..sorry i know its kindof off topic, but i rejoice greatly in the unification with our Anglican brethren…

Are those parishes considered Anglican Use - Latin Rite now? I thought they were not Latin Rite but some other, new rite. Details, I know, but I’m curious.

 

[ProVobis]

Are those parishes considered Anglican Use - Latin Rite now?

I don’t see why not. I haven’t seen the organizational chart on this yet, though, or if it will be expanded into other vernaculars.

 

[Aramis]

I don’t mean to make you jealous, but there is a Maronite Catholic Church (West Syriac Antiochene Tradition) near me, too. As far as I know, they are the only Catholic Church which uses all three of the major terms (Mass, Divine Liturgy, and Qurbono) to describe the Eucharistic feast. I may be wrong, of course…

It is:

St. George Maronite Catholic Church
6070 Babcock Road
San Antonio, TX 78240

stgeorgesa.org/

Now, since you asked out Novus Ordo Missae, then this is a little off topic. From what I understand, the priest(s) rotate in and out every year or so.

There’s also a massive debate amongst the Maronites since the Maronite Synod is arguing over whether to retain the option of Ad Oreintam or Vs Populem, or insist one one or the other; whether to reduce the number of anaphorae, keep all the current, or increase the permitted list to restore several that have fallen from use; how much vernacular and how much Aramaic should be used, and whether to mix the Lebanese Arabic with the local vernacular.

The Latin church is not the only one with issues over form.

As for the Anglican Use Missal: it’s another form entirely of the Roman Rite. It’s as unique from the TLM and the OF mass as they are from each other, and from the Dominican Mass.

 

[Onegin]

St. Agnes Catholic Church in St. Paul, Minnesota has an ad orientem Latin Novus Ordo. I went to it once a few years ago, as a friend told me it was a “Latin Mass” so I was a bit confused until someone explained that it was a Novus Ordo in Latin.

Other than that, I have no idea of any other churches that offer this. Does the Brompton Oratory in London have the Latin Novus Ordo? I know they have a TLM every so often…

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Other than that, I have no idea of any other churches that offer this. Does the Brompton Oratory in London have the Latin Novus Ordo? I know they have a TLM every so often…

Yes, Brompton offers the OF AND the EF in Latin. They also do an English mass.

 

[cecilia97]

I don’t see why not. I haven’t seen the organizational chart on this yet, though, or if it will be expanded into other vernaculars.

I thought I had heard there was something like an “Anglican Rite” of the Western Church and that the Anglican Use parishes would still fall under the Latin Rite. But, like you say, the Archbishop hasn’t called me or anything, either.

 

[angelic06]

There’s also a massive debate amongst the Maronites since the Maronite Synod is arguing over whether to retain the option of Ad Oreintam or Vs Populem, or insist one one or the other; whether to reduce the number of anaphorae, keep all the current, or increase the permitted list to restore several that have fallen from use; how much vernacular and how much Aramaic should be used, and whether to mix the Lebanese Arabic with the local vernacular.

The Latin church is not the only one with issues over form.

As for the Anglican Use Missal: it’s another form entirely of the Roman Rite. It’s as unique from the TLM and the OF mass as they are from each other, and from the Dominican Mass.

I’ve been to St. George on Wednesday of Holy Week, as well as when I first arrived in SA in 2006. They use Vs. Populem.

Also, they used to have an ordained subdeacon (Sbd. Raymond Casillo (sp?)) in 2006, but I see from the webpage that he is not on the list of clergy anymore, so I don’t know where he went.

I also noticed from the Divine Liturgy that they used one song which I recognized from the modernist Latin-rite Catholic hymnody (played on the piano) during the Wednesday Divine Liturgy. I don’t know how much the use of Western hymns is prevalent in Eastern churches. Finally, I understand from the Byzantine Forum that the Byzantine Catholics are also having problems with the Revised Divine Liturgy (Latinizations?). A layperson (@ St. George Maronite) says many of the roles assigned to a deacon in the liturgical books of the Maronite Catholic Church (I’m not complaining about it-he does it reverently).

Paul R. Viola

 

[BernadetteM]

there are a lot more than 7 now! the ACA came ion under the Ordinariete system so there are about i think 100 more or something close to that…and more groups consider that system every day!..sorry i know its kindof off topic, but i rejoice greatly in the unification with our Anglican brethren…

The Ordinariates have not been implemented as of yet. Hopefully by June. It is now worldwide, not just in the US. When the Pastoral Provision was started 30 years ago the initial desire of the priests who approached Rome was to have an Anglican Use worldwide, but I believe that England and others were against it and Rome didn’t want to step on any toes.

Since that time the Traditional Anglican Communion has petitioned Rome and the Pope has offered them and all Anglicans to become Catholic under an Ordinariate. Just as the TLM was stopped by many Bishops, this happened to the Anglican Use parishes. But now under the Ordianariate the Ordinary will make those decisions, of course, conferring with the local Bishop, but actually the Ordinary and Rome make the final decision.

Also there will be a new liturgy established and that will take time as some former Anglicans from Europe use different liturgies than the ones did in the US. I know that the AU priests would have desired their Mass to be more in line with the Anglican Missal, which is actually a beautiful translation of the TLM with additional Anglican prayers included.

We must pray that there will be many more of these parishes. I would love to have one close to me, but live in a very liberal state and I don’t have contact with any Episcopalians/Continuing Anglicans anymore to gather a small group together so that we can petition to have a parish.

It is complicated and hopefully Rome will soon implement the Ordinariates and later maybe more and more Episcopalians or Continuing Anglicans in the US will accept the Holy Father’s offer.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[BernadetteM]

I thought I had heard there was something like an “Anglican Rite” of the Western Church and that the Anglican Use parishes would still fall under the Latin Rite. But, like you say, the Archbishop hasn’t called me or anything, either.

The Ordinariate will be Latin Rite with an Anglican Use liturgy and Anglican traditions. The Anglican Use parishes use Latin at times in the liturgy and at least one of them, Our Lady of the Atonement in San Antonio Texas has a Latin Mass every Sunday. Anglican Use parishes have beautiful music and are very orthodox Catholics.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[cecilia97]

The Ordinariate will be Latin Rite with an Anglican Use liturgy and Anglican traditions. The Anglican Use parishes use Latin at times in the liturgy and at least one of them, Our Lady of the Atonement in San Antonio Texas has a Latin Mass every Sunday. Anglican Use parishes have beautiful music and are very orthodox Catholics.

God Bless

Bernadette

Oh yes, I frequent the AU parish here in Houston and have friends there.

I read your other post about the Ordinariate, Bernadette, but I’m still confused about one thing. What will happen to the 7 CURRENT AU parishes? Will they be absorbed into this new Ordinariate, or will they continue as AU parishes under their local bishops? From what I understand in Houston, Our Lady of Walsingham has an excellent relationship with Cardinal DiNardo.

 

[MIKE46]

Between 1965 and 1969 there existed a form of the Mass that was not the Traditional Mass nor the Ordinary Form as we know it. It more closely resembled the Traditional Mass than the Ordinary Form today does. It retained the use of Latin in some aspects and the Kyrie in Greek. Several things were moved around as I remember and several other things omitted or modified, although time has kind of blurred my memories of exactly what they were. It was different enough to be noticible but not different enough to really cause problems. The changes were generally well received and most of us thought that it was the new Mass that we had been told was coming…

No such luck.

Then the Ordinary Form came out, seemingly overnight and the transformation was immediate, drastic, confusing and sharp in comparison. It caught most of us completely off guard and along with other changes, removal of statues, altar rails, re-positiong of Altars etc took a lot of getting used to. Some could not cope with the changes. Others eagerly accepted them. Suddenly anything and everything was up for grabs. Change was considered the best thing posssible. Annything new was good and everything old was bad. You couldn’t find a public rosary recitation, a Corpus Christi procession or Eucharistic Adoration, Forty Hours etc anywhere. Communion on the tongue, gone. In the hand, the new and better way. In one fell swoop the traditions of 1000+ years were eagerly thrown out of the window, all in the name of progress. Why?

It was a sad sad time and one that is both hard to remember and difficult to forget.

I think it would be good if everyone stepped back for a moment and pondered one overriding and burning question.

What was it that was so bad about the pre conciliar Mass and Church for that matter, that required such drastic and dramatic changes? In all of the posts about the relative superiority and /or inferiority of both rites, I have never seen that question addressed or discussed. And in my opinion it is the one that really deserves discussion before anything else. Because if we cannot find a valid rationale for the changes, why were they accepted so eagerly by so many or even attempted in the first place? Were they accepted for the sake of change alone as appears to be the case or was there some valid reason for them?

I don’t know the answer and probably never will.

As far as a “Legit Ordinary Form” I would imagine you can find them just about anywhere. You may have to look hard and do some Parish shopping, but they are out there.

Somewhere.

 

[Aramis]

I’ve been to St. George on Wednesday of Holy Week, as well as when I first arrived in SA in 2006. They use Vs. Populem.

Also, they used to have an ordained subdeacon (Sbd. Raymond Casillo (sp?)) in 2006, but I see from the webpage that he is not on the list of clergy anymore, so I don’t know where he went.

I also noticed from the Divine Liturgy that they used one song which I recognized from the modernist Latin-rite Catholic hymnody (played on the piano) during the Wednesday Divine Liturgy. I don’t know how much the use of Western hymns is prevalent in Eastern churches. Finally, I understand from the Byzantine Forum that the Byzantine Catholics are also having problems with the Revised Divine Liturgy (Latinizations?). A layperson (@ St. George Maronite) says many of the roles assigned to a deacon in the liturgical books of the Maronite Catholic Church (I’m not complaining about it-he does it reverently).

Paul R. Viola

It is my understanding (from a Maronite deacon) that the Maronite Eparchy of Newton allows some of the ektenie to be said by a layman if no deacon nor subdeacon is present. And that’s apparently controversial, too. (The Maronites are still highly latinized in their praxis; one comment I’ve heard on the matter is that it woud be easier to make a second church sui iris for those Maronites who want to delatinize…)

The 2006 promulgation of the Ruthenian DL is far more a hotbed online than in my local parish; it’s been a Fait Accompli since 2006 textually, and since start of Great Lent 2010 musically. Lots of people online hate the new music; my parish accepts it, some grudgingly, others with Gusto. But, since literally more than half of the parish reads music, it’s far less of an issue than at some other parishes*. While we don’t use Western Hymns, we do have a post-dismissal hymn typically (and it’s permitted under the guidelines for the Ruthenian Church). At Nativity, we sing a mix of Ruthenian and western carols starting an hour before liturgy, but no western hymns during the liturgy itself. It’s not a latinization; it does take to heart some of the issues of V II (specifically, delatinization, and participation of the laity, as well as accessible modern translation) but falls into the issue of “Modern English”=“Politically Correct English”.

*Alaska made musical literacy a part of the state elementary standards for public schools. The only kids not coming out of elementary able to read music are private school students.

 

[BernadetteM]

Oh yes, I frequent the AU parish here in Houston and have friends there.

I read your other post about the Ordinariate, Bernadette, but I’m still confused about one thing. What will happen to the 7 CURRENT AU parishes? Will they be absorbed into this new Ordinariate, or will they continue as AU parishes under their local bishops? From what I understand in Houston, Our Lady of Walsingham has an excellent relationship with Cardinal DiNardo.

They will belong to the Ordinariate also. To be honest I was invovled when the first priests approached Rome 30 years ago and they were the ones who helped to establish the Pastoral Provision, but because of a liberal Cardinal were denied to have parishes here. But God works in His own way. They wanted to have the Provision worldwide, but at the time there were only 5 parishes and this was denied. Now that TAC has petitioned the door has been opened. I also feel very strongly that Rome watched these AU parishes to see if they were truely orthodox Catholics and as you know they are true to the Catholic Faith. This is the reason I feel Pope Benedict made the offer, he knows or at least feels that Anglicans will bring back some of what has been lost over the past 40 years and that they are Catholic in belief. I pray that all the incoming Anglicans will be as orthodox as our AU priests are. I believe that their are 9 AU communities now. Two of them are still establishing themselves as parishes.

I would love to see Fr. Phillips as the Ordinary. He is such a wonderful and pastoral priest. He understands the Church and people from both Catholic and Anglican traditions.

Have you asked the Pastor at Our Lady of Walsingham about it? I have had contact with 3 of the AU priests, but not the one at OLW.

God Bless

 

[cecilia97]

Have you asked the Pastor at Our Lady of Walsingham about it? I have had contact with 3 of the AU priests, but not the one at OLW.

God Bless

Thanks be to God for all this progress! I’ve had to limit me time at OLW lately, so I don’t know their newer pastor well. The last pastor was a wonderful, orthodox, and holy man who is now in the hospital chaplaincy. They are blessed to have him.

I’ll pick some brains to get the latest scoop the next time I’m up there! THanks for your great info.

 

[BernadetteM]

Thanks be to God for all this progress! I’ve had to limit me time at OLW lately, so I don’t know their newer pastor well. The last pastor was a wonderful, orthodox, and holy man who is now in the hospital chaplaincy. They are blessed to have him.

I’ll pick some brains to get the latest scoop the next time I’m up there! THanks for your great info.

Your welcome. I would love it if you would pray that an AU parish will be established close enough to me to attend. I don’t know any Anglicans anymore and you must have at least 10 to petition for a parish. Although I do go to a very traditional parish I miss my Anglican traditions. I think all the AU priests are very pastoral and very orthodox.

They all have had to sacrifice to be Catholic priests.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[cecilia97]

Your welcome. I would love it if you would pray that an AU parish will be established close enough to me to attend. I don’t know any Anglicans anymore and you must have at least 10 to petition for a parish. Although I do go to a very traditional parish I miss my Anglican traditions. I think all the AU priests are very pastoral and very orthodox.

They all have had to sacrifice to be Catholic priests.

God Bless

Bernadette

Be assured of my prayers for 9 orthodox Anglicans to move into your area post haste, if it is God’s will!

 

[DustyOR]

As a cradle Catholic, I have a lot of heartburn about Vatican II
Essentially they threw the baby out with the bath water to accommodate who?
Those who are too lazy to learn Latin or even try to utter the replies?
I am really tired of people fixing things that are not broken.
I miss it terribly and feel that it should be brought back. It was my
understanding that the current pope, or the one before him, was encouraging
the Latin mass be resurrected, but few of the parishes want to do it even though
the priests are certainly old enough to remember Latin mass.
Finally, I find it kind of ironic that the Vatican practices Latin mass daily,
but we are denied same.

 

[ljubim]

Between 1965 and 1969 there existed a form of the Mass that was not the Traditional Mass nor the Ordinary Form as we know it. It more closely resembled the Traditional Mass than the Ordinary Form today does. It retained the use of Latin in some aspects and the Kyrie in Greek. Several things were moved around as I remember and several other things omitted or modified, although time has kind of blurred my memories of exactly what they were. It was different enough to be noticible but not different enough to really cause problems. The changes were generally well received and most of us thought that it was the new Mass that we had been told was coming…

No such luck.

Then the Ordinary Form came out, seemingly overnight and the transformation was immediate, drastic, confusing and sharp in comparison. It caught most of us completely off guard and along with other changes, removal of statues, altar rails, re-positiong of Altars etc took a lot of getting used to. Some could not cope with the changes. Others eagerly accepted them. Suddenly anything and everything was up for grabs. Change was considered the best thing posssible. Annything new was good and everything old was bad. You couldn’t find a public rosary recitation, a Corpus Christi procession or Eucharistic Adoration, Forty Hours etc anywhere. Communion on the tongue, gone. In the hand, the new and better way. In one fell swoop the traditions of 1000+ years were eagerly thrown out of the window, all in the name of progress. Why?

It was a sad sad time and one that is both hard to remember and difficult to forget.

I think it would be good if everyone stepped back for a moment and pondered one overriding and burning question.

What was it that was so bad about the pre conciliar Mass and Church for that matter, that required such drastic and dramatic changes? In all of the posts about the relative superiority and /or inferiority of both rites, I have never seen that question addressed or discussed. And in my opinion it is the one that really deserves discussion before anything else. Because if we cannot find a valid rationale for the changes, why were they accepted so eagerly by so many or even attempted in the first place? Were they accepted for the sake of change alone as appears to be the case or was there some valid reason for them?

I don’t know the answer and probably never will.

As far as a “Legit Ordinary Form” I would imagine you can find them just about anywhere. You may have to look hard and do some Parish shopping, but they are out there.

Somewhere.

That’s a really good question. When I speak with my grandparents, who lived through VII as adults, they are under the impression that VII/the New Mass happened to get Mass in the vernacular. Even after all these years they are still under this idea.

I think, if it were happening today, I would become an Eastern Catholic, if not consider becoming Orthodox. Because a Church without the rosary and adoration is no Church at all.

They’re not out there, not in my diocese anyway. Teens who have been Catholic for a decade and a half have never even seen a chapel veil here, and enjoy hearing Christian rock music at the Mass. Their cluelessness a very scary situation, and the moment they get to college I fear for their souls. An upcoming weekend I’ll be attending another diocesan high school event and I pray for its orthodoxy, or else I’ll be seriously disturbed all week about what they have done to the Mass.

Dusty: The current Pope is working on it. He need our prayers to do the right thing! I am convinced that the media’s slander of him recently is because he is preparing to do something very important in regards to the Traditional Mass. I might be wrong but I’ve got that feeling. The devil always attacks us when we have something important to do, just like St. John Vianney always got bothered more at night when the next day a big sinner came to his confessional (“there’ll be a big fish tomorrow!” )

I’m not saying the devil likes the New Mass, but I would say the spiritual dryness that pervades many, he at least prefers.

 

[Luvadoxi]

I visited my daughter in St. Paul/Minneapolis and I found one–St. Charles Borromeo–beautiful, reverent in every respect! In talking to one of the young parishioners, I was told something of the history of this parish; they had a priest during the 70s and 80s who when he heard of all the changes said that they were having none of that. And they didn’t! I sure wish I lived there. I live in Athens, Georgia and am desperate to find such a parish anywhere nearby. Any advice would be much appreciated!

 

[ljubim]

I visited my daughter in St. Paul/Minneapolis and I found one–St. Charles Borromeo–beautiful, reverent in every respect! In talking to one of the young parishioners, I was told something of the history of this parish; they had a priest during the 70s and 80s who when he heard of all the changes said that they were having none of that. And they didn’t! I sure wish I lived there. I live in Athens, Georgia and am desperate to find such a parish anywhere nearby. Any advice would be much appreciated!

I don’t know GA very well You might want to start a thread on that, or if there’s a GA/South group that you can ask around.