Where was Mary?

[OscarsMama]

Where was Mary during the Last Supper?

I am specifically referring to Mary, Jesus’ mother. But, now that I think about it, where was Mary Magdalene, too?

Thank you for answering my question!!

 

[Spirithound]

They were probably there. The ritual dialogue in the Seder meal includes a part for the mother of the household.

 

[st_lucy]

Scripture is not specific on this but if I am not mistaken it was tradition for the men and women to be seprated during the passover feast. So the the women where in one room and the men where in another. Also if you read the Dolorous passion of our Lord by St Anne Emurich she states just this.

 

[Insight]

Scripture is not specific on this but if I am not mistaken it was tradition for the men and women to be seprated during the passover feast. So the the women where in one room and the men where in another. Also if you read the Dolorous passion of our Lord by St Anne Emurich she states just this.

I think its actually Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich. Anyhow, Maria Valtorta’s writings say the same.

AdvancedChristianity.com/Pages/Nangini/Nangini_003_Poem.htm

God Bless

 

[st_lucy]

I think its actually Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich. Anyhow, Maria Valtorta’s writings say the same.

AdvancedChristianity.com/Pages/Nangini/Nangini_003_Poem.htm

God Bless

Oh I am sorry I thought that she was a Saint but you are right is titled Blessed also thank you for correcting my horrific spelling of her last name.

 

[puzzleannie]

I don’t know what tradition was for Seder in the first century but John’s gospel seems to make it very clear that only the 12 apostles are present. Scripture is silent on where Mary, the other women, and the other disciples were celebrating Passover.

 

[Timothysis]

It is my understanding that Tradition has always said that Mary, along with many disciples - not to be confused with the Apostles - were present at the Last Supper. I see no reason to doubt this, especially since many of His most devoted were disciples and not apostles.

 

[redrosetea]

snip

Mary and Jesus’ Passion
Since the Holy Family followed a yearly custom of pilgrimage to Jerusalem for the feast of Passover (cf. Lk 2:41), it is reasonable to assume that Jesus and Mary met there each year. The Synoptics indicate that Jesus continued this customary journey during his public ministry. We may presume that Mary also continued this habit. John explicitly tells us that they were both present when Jesus made his last pilgrimage to Jerusalem and met at his Crucifixion (cf. Jn 19:25).

Though not explicitly mentioned, the above allows us to assume that Mary was present when Jesus celebrated the Last Supper. The Passover meal (celebrated on the vigil for reasons which would become obvious) was traditionally a family affair at which Mary would have been expected to attend and assist with the domestic chores if she was present and able.

After the meal, Jesus was unjustly arrested, accused, condemned, tortured, and crucified under the jurisdiction of Pontius Pilate. Since Pilate left his post in the Holy Land by 37 A.D., Jesus must have died before then, probably around 28 A.D. He was probably around thirty-three at the time, making Mary around forty-eight. All four gospels mention Jesus’ Crucifixion. Only John specifically mentions Mary’s presence. The fact that from the Cross Jesus entrusted Mary to the beloved disciple rather than to a relative was considered evidence of Mary’s lifelong virginity by Origen (d. ca. 254).

 

[thistle]

I think its actually Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich. Anyhow, Maria Valtorta’s writings say the same.

AdvancedChristianity.com/Pages/Nangini/Nangini_003_Poem.htm

God Bless

Maria Valtorta’s writings are condemned by the Church so I wouldn’t point to them as a reference.

 

[laszlo]

The problem is that traditionally the passover was strictly family celebration.

Jesus broke this tradition, and made his disciples to His family. We know that He spent the Last supper with His disciples. This means that the Jewish tradition for the Passover Seder does not apply.

In other hand someone had to prepare and serve the meal. For me it seems to be natural, that it was like in my childhood: women stayed in the kitchen ate the best pieces and served the rest for the men.

 

[Insight]

Maria Valtorta’s writings are condemned by the Church so I wouldn’t point to them as a reference.

The Church might change its mind. Valtorta’s writings were condemned on the same day as Saint Faustina’s Divine Mercy. When we finally got a Polish Pope (John Paul II, turned everything around).

“After a failed attempt to persuade Pope Pius XII to sign a condemnation, Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani at the Holy Office included her (Saint Mary Faustina Kowalska) works on a list (that list included Maria Valtorta’s writings) he submitted to the newly elected Pope John XXIII in 1959. The Pope signed the decree that placed her work on the Index of Forbidden Books and they remained on the Index until it was abolished on 14 June 1966 by Pope Paul VI. In 1959, as the Vatican forbade the Divine Mercy devotion, it also severely reprimanded Father Sopocko (her spiritual director - who nearly had a nervous breakdown at the hands of his superiors), and all his work was suppressed”.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Faustina_Kowalska
God Bless

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The Church might change its mind. Valtorta’s writings were condemned on the same day as Saint Faustina’s Divine Mercy. When we finally got a Polish Pope (John Paul II, turned everything around).

This does not change the fact that right now they are condemned.

Just because St Faustina’s writings were condemned and then latter that was changed does not mean that it will change for Valtorta’s writings.

 

[Timothysis]

This does not change the fact that right now they are condemned.

Just because St Faustina’s writings were condemned and then latter that was changed does not mean that it will change for Valtorta’s writings.

Exactly. Besides, St. Faustina’s writings were condemned because of original faulty translations that muddled theology. Once new, accurate translations were made the theological objections were no more.

Some of the criticisms of the Man Poem by Father Mitch Pacwa:
*
“…the long speeches of Jesus and Mary starkly contrast with the
evangelists, who portray Jesus as “humble, reserved; His discourses are
lean, incisive.” Valtorta’s fictionalized history makes Jesus sound “like
a chatterbox, always ready to proclaim Himself the Messiah and the Son of
God,” or teach theology in modern terms. The Blessed Mother speaks like a
“propagandist” for modern Marian theology.”*
*
"…“some passages are rather risque,” like the “immodest” dance before
Pilate (vol. 5, p. 73). There are “many historical, geographical and
other blunders.” For instance, Jesus uses screwdrivers (Vol. 1, pp. 195,
223), centuries before screws existed. "*

And to me, the most serious;

"There are theological errors, as when “Jesus says” (vol. 1, p. 30) that
Eve’s temptation consisted in arousing her flesh, as the serpent
sensuously “caressed” her. While she “began the sin by herself,” she
“accomplished it with her companion.” Sun Myung Moon and Maria Valtorta
may claim the first sin was sexual, but Scripture does not. "

"T*he best that can be said for “The Poem of the Man-God” is that it is a
bad novel *(the words of then Cardinal Ratzinger). *This was summed up in the L’Osservatore Romano headline, which
called the book “A Badly Fictionalized Life of Jesus.” *

 

[Insight]

Exactly. Besides, St. Faustina’s writings were condemned because of original faulty translations that muddled theology.

The original condemnation by Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani cited theological reservations regarding complete remission of sin for certain devotional acts and excessive focus on Faustina herself. Many Divine Mercy devotees believe that the Vatican explanations for the original condemnations being attributed to a poor translation was a fall-back rationalization.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Faustina_Kowalska

Some of the criticisms of the Man Poem by Father Mitch Pacwa:
“starkly contrast with the evangelists, who portray Jesus as "humble, reserved”

It’s difficult to argue Jesus being humble and reserved when He called his so-called superiors (Chief Priest, Doctors of the Law, Pharisees, Scribes and Seduces) a “brood of vipers” and overturned the tables in the Temple ( Mark 11:15, Matthew 12:34 & Matthew 21:12). Jesus made a whip out of cords and drove them all out (John 2:15).

“some passages are rather risque,” like the “immodest” dance before Pilate (vol. 5, p. 73).

Or like the immodest dance before Herod, for which he chopped off John the Baptist’s head.

“There are “many historical, geographical and other blunders.” For instance, Jesus uses screwdrivers (Vol. 1, pp. 195, 223), centuries before screws existed.”

Valtorta writes: “I think it is a screwdriver”, but this tool is not utilized. Jesus and Joseph did not use the tool. The Encyclopedia Britannica credits Archytas of Tarentum as the inventor of the screw years before the birth of Christ. A 2,100 year old mechanical computing device (Antikythera Mechanism), was recovered from a Roman shipwreck that had very complex mechanical parts. Erich Von Daniken wrote a book based on it (Chariots to the Gods), mistakenly believing that it was left by Ancient Astronauts. In 2004, a team including British, Greek and U.S. scientists used specially developed X-ray scanning and imaging technology to analyze the corroded bronze, revealing hidden machinery including fine bronze gears, screws and springs.

She accurately transcribe in 1945 what planets and stars were in the night sky on specific days 2,000 years ago (verified by a Harvard educated Theoretical Physicist) without the assistance of modern complex astronomical computer algorithms. She recorded first century Palestinian geography, towns and villages (nine of which were unknown before her death) that were not available in any published atlases or journals during her lifetime. The Harvard Educated Physicist concluded: "These impossibly exact details “tax the credulity of even the immovable atheist more than the alternative that Jesus showed it to her. In the words of Sherlock Holmes, when you eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however merely improbable, must be true” (Professor Lonnie Lee VanZandt).

And to me, the most serious; "There are theological errors, as when “Jesus says” (vol. 1, p. 30) that Eve’s temptation consisted in arousing her flesh, as the serpent sensuously “caressed” her. While she “began the sin by herself,” she “accomplished it with her companion.” Sun Myung Moon and Maria Valtorta may claim the first sin was sexual, but Scripture does not.”

Saint Bridget’s writings claim the first sin was sexual, and they are acknowledged by the Church.

God Bless

 

[laszlo]

"There are theological errors, as when “Jesus says” (vol. 1, p. 30) that
Eve’s temptation consisted in arousing her flesh, as the serpent
sensuously “caressed” her. While she “began the sin by herself,” she
“accomplished it with her companion.” Sun Myung Moon and Maria Valtorta
may claim the first sin was sexual, but Scripture does not. "

There is a theological opinion that God wanted His Son to be the physical firstborn of Eve, and live with the rest of the people immortal life; and the original sin prevented this. This suggest that the original sin was sexual in some sense. In any way the punishment for the women is the pain in childbirth; which also suggests the sexual nature of the sin. Not the sex in itself, but sex without the required restraint is sinful.

 

[thistle]

The original condemnation by Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani cited theological reservations regarding complete remission of sin for certain devotional acts and excessive focus on Faustina herself. Many Divine Mercy devotees believe that the Vatican explanations for the original condemnations being attributed to a poor translation was a fall-back rationalization.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Faustina_Kowalska

It’s difficult to argue Jesus being humble and reserved when He called his so-called superiors (Chief Priest, Doctors of the Law, Pharisees, Scribes and Seduces) a “brood of vipers” and overturned the tables in the Temple ( Mark 11:15, Matthew 12:34 & Matthew 21:12). Jesus made a whip out of cords and drove them all out (John 2:15).

Or like the immodest dance before Herod, for which he chopped off John the Baptist’s head.

Valtorta writes: “I think it is a screwdriver”, but this tool is not utilized. Jesus and Joseph did not use the tool. The Encyclopedia Britannica credits Archytas of Tarentum as the inventor of the screw years before the birth of Christ. A 2,100 year old mechanical computing device (Antikythera Mechanism), was recovered from a Roman shipwreck that had very complex mechanical parts. Erich Von Daniken wrote a book based on it (Chariots to the Gods), mistakenly believing that it was left by Ancient Astronauts. In 2004, a team including British, Greek and U.S. scientists used specially developed X-ray scanning and imaging technology to analyze the corroded bronze, revealing hidden machinery including fine bronze gears, screws and springs.

She accurately transcribe in 1945 what planets and stars were in the night sky on specific days 2,000 years ago (verified by a Harvard educated Theoretical Physicist) without the assistance of modern complex astronomical computer algorithms. She recorded first century Palestinian geography, towns and villages (nine of which were unknown before her death) that were not available in any published atlases or journals during her lifetime. The Harvard Educated Physicist concluded: "These impossibly exact details “tax the credulity of even the immovable atheist more than the alternative that Jesus showed it to her. In the words of Sherlock Holmes, when you eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however merely improbable, must be true” (Professor Lonnie Lee VanZandt).

Saint Bridget’s writings claim the first sin was sexual, and they are acknowledged by the Church.

God Bless

Maria Valtorta’s writing are condemned by the Church and you are breaking forum rules by making known some of the content of these condemned writings.

 

[Insight]

There is a theological opinion that God wanted His Son to be the physical firstborn of Eve, and live with the rest of the people immortal life; and the original sin prevented this. This suggest that the original sin was sexual in some sense. In any way the punishment for the women is the pain in childbirth; which also suggests the sexual nature of the sin. Not the sex in itself, but sex without the required restraint is sinful.

If that’s what happened, it makes sense why God would make an allegory, so we could read the Bible to children.

God Bless

 

[Insight]

Maria Valtorta’s writing are condemned by the Church and you are breaking forum rules by making known some of the content of these condemned writings.

I only responded to direct questions, anyhow, there are entire threads on this topic already.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=74844&highlight=Poem+of+the+Man-God

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=143690&highlight=Valtorta

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=6533&highlight=Valtorta

Don’t ask anymore questions on it.

God Bless

 

[Timothysis]

The original condemnation by Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani cited theological reservations regarding complete remission of sin for certain devotional acts and excessive focus on Faustina herself. Many Divine Mercy devotees believe that the Vatican explanations for the original condemnations being attributed to a poor translation was a fall-back rationalization.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Faustina_Kowalska

It’s difficult to argue Jesus being humble and reserved when He called his so-called superiors (Chief Priest, Doctors of the Law, Pharisees, Scribes and Seduces) a “brood of vipers” and overturned the tables in the Temple ( Mark 11:15, Matthew 12:34 & Matthew 21:12). Jesus made a whip out of cords and drove them all out (John 2:15).

Or like the immodest dance before Herod, for which he chopped off John the Baptist’s head.

Valtorta writes: “I think it is a screwdriver”, but this tool is not utilized. Jesus and Joseph did not use the tool. The Encyclopedia Britannica credits Archytas of Tarentum as the inventor of the screw years before the birth of Christ. A 2,100 year old mechanical computing device (Antikythera Mechanism), was recovered from a Roman shipwreck that had very complex mechanical parts. Erich Von Daniken wrote a book based on it (Chariots to the Gods), mistakenly believing that it was left by Ancient Astronauts. In 2004, a team including British, Greek and U.S. scientists used specially developed X-ray scanning and imaging technology to analyze the corroded bronze, revealing hidden machinery including fine bronze gears, screws and springs.

She accurately transcribe in 1945 what planets and stars were in the night sky on specific days 2,000 years ago (verified by a Harvard educated Theoretical Physicist) without the assistance of modern complex astronomical computer algorithms. She recorded first century Palestinian geography, towns and villages (nine of which were unknown before her death) that were not available in any published atlases or journals during her lifetime. The Harvard Educated Physicist concluded: "These impossibly exact details “tax the credulity of even the immovable atheist more than the alternative that Jesus showed it to her. In the words of Sherlock Holmes, when you eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however merely improbable, must be true” (Professor Lonnie Lee VanZandt).

Saint Bridget’s writings claim the first sin was sexual, and they are acknowledged by the Church.

God Bless

Your responses are not to me but to Father Mitch Pacwa who authored the article cited. In any event, your devotion to the work still does not change the fact that it has been condemned by the Church. As Father Mitch also says,

"At worst, “Poem’s” impact is more serious. Though many people claim that
“Poem” helps their faith or their return to reading Scripture, they are
still being disobedient to the Church’s decisions regarding the reading of
“Poem.” How can such disregard for Church authority and wisdom be a help
in renewing the Church in these difficult times? "

Do you make it a habit to side against the legitimate authority of the Church?

Saint Bridget’s writings claim the first sin was sexual, and they are acknowledged by the Church.

Saint Bridget may be “acknowledged” by the Church, but her writings do not overrule scripture. The continuous, traditional teaching of the Church is that Adam and Eve’s sin was one of presumption, namely disobedience. God’s question of “*why did you do such a thing?” *referred to Eve’s disobedience in taking and eating from the tree which both of them were forbidden to eat, or even touch "lest ye die." He wasn’t questioning their sexual practices.

 

[Timothysis]

There is a theological opinion that God wanted His Son to be the physical firstborn of Eve, and live with the rest of the people immortal life; and the original sin prevented this. This suggest that the original sin was sexual in some sense. In any way the punishment for the women is the pain in childbirth; which also suggests the sexual nature of the sin. Not the sex in itself, but sex without the required restraint is sinful.

This is nothing more than theological speculation and does not represent the constant teachings of the Church. The sin of Adam and Eve was disobedience.