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STT
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But medical criteria is about the brain activity rather than presence of soul.When a body is no longer alive it is dead. Usually, brain death is the medical criteria, which is good enough for me.
No.
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Bookcat
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Della
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But you didn’t ask about the presence of the soul, you asked me to define death, and I did.
As to the presence of the soul, there is no hard evidence as to precisely when the soul leaves the body. It’s one of the reasons that priests will administer the last rites to the recently deceased–in case their soul is still present to receive spiritual benefits.
If you don’t believe in the soul, we cannot convince you that it exists. That’s not our job as apologists. Our job is to present the Church’s teachings. Then it is up to you to think on what the Church teaches, pray about it (yes, even if you don’t believe in God you may pray), and keep an open heart and mind. So, it’s up to you, and you alone, to make such decisions. We can do no more than point you to the Church’s teachings, tell you what we know, and pray for you.
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Robert_Sock
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Note I’m still in agreement with our Jewish brothers and sisters at Chabad that all is nullified in God, and that our soul would be nullified if it managed to cleave to God. The keyword is “cleave.” Yes, we will be in a state where we will experience God in a much more revealed state when in Heaven than we do here on earth, but our soul will not actually be allowed to cleave to Him, nor will we ever be in a state where we are actually able to fully comprehend God. God created the Heavens and the earth, but He still remains beyond them. If God lives in Heaven, in which Heaven does He live in when St Paul says he was taken up to the third Heaven? Yes, God is present in Heaven, but He is also present here on earth. God is everywhere! Yes, this is different from what most Catholics believe, but I do not believe it goes against any actual Church teaching. Perhaps we will be reunited with Christ in His glorified bodies in the Hereafter, but God is One, and will alway be well beyond our full comprehension of Him, and is well beyond all of His creation even though He is everywhere at once. This is a great mystery, and will always be a mystery to us. How Christ became fully God and human at the same time is also a great mystery that will never be fully understood by anyone, even though we Catholics believe it really happened.I am first responding to the sentence I bolded. No, our souls do not "cease to exist if it managed to reunite itself with God." Indeed, our whole aim is to be united to God. We don’t disappear as persons merely because we are united with another person. It’s like the marriage relationship, not like bumps in the tapioca.
The breath of life is indeed the soul which God breathed into Adam, making him a living, immortal soul. But no, it was not God becoming man nor man becoming God. There was only on Incarnation in Christ Jesus, and even that wasn’t man becoming God, but God becoming man.
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Della
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I don’t think you understand the fact that we could NEVER “cleave to God” as you describe it–us being absorbed into God so that God alone exists. We are his creation. We were created in his likeness in that we are immortal beings, but we could never become a part of God in the manner you are describing. This is NOT Church teaching. Our Jewish brethren are, of course, free to believe whatever they like, as are those of any other faith, but we Catholics do NOT believe your definition of being united with God. You may want to talk to your priest about this to get it straight in your mind.
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Robert_Sock
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Does the Church teach that our soul or our world and the heavens now exist independently of God?I don’t think you understand the fact that we could NEVER “cleave to God” as you describe it–us being absorbed into God so that God alone exists. We are his creation. We were created in his likeness in that we are immortal beings, but we could never become a part of God in the manner you are describing. This is NOT Church teaching. Our Jewish brethren are, of course, free to believe whatever they like, as are those of any other faith, but we Catholics do NOT believe your definition of being united with God. You may want to talk to your priest about this to get it straight in your mind.
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Bookcat
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Della
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In the sense that God is God and we aren’t him.
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ANV
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I think that is more relevant to original Christianity than modern Christianity.
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Robert_Sock
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I tend to believe that all of creation is100% dependent on God and that if God failed to will its existence for even the shortest moment of time, all would be nullified.In the sense that God is God and we aren’t him.
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Della
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That’s a very different thing from believing that “cleaving” to God means being absorbed into the deity with no personality of one’s own. Of course creation is completely dependent on God. When did I claim otherwise?
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Robert_Sock
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I never stated that you claimed otherwise! All I did say was that the Tanya (Chabad) makes it clear that if the soul were to manage to “cleave” to God, which God will not allow happening, the soul would immediately become nullified. Again, I personally never read anything from the Church which would contradict this, even though I know that there exists many Catholics who would immediately reject this Jewish teaching.
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Della
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The burden of proof that the soul that could manage to cleave to God would be immediately nullified is on you, since you are making that claim. You could comb every Church document ever put out–you wouldn’t find any such teaching anywhere. Again, you need to talk to your priest about this–a scheduled meeting not a quick question after Mass. What you are promoting simply isn’t Church teaching no matter how much you’d like to believe it. This is my last word on this, considering we’ve taken the thread off topic, anyway.
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Robert_Sock
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I personally do not think there is a Church teaching one way or the other on this specific point, but I do think that our soul comes directly from God and that this latter point is quite to the point as to the thread topic.
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Fiasco
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It’s dangerous to cling to some Jewish teachings. Stick to the New Covenant teachings of the Holy Spirit-inspired Church.
If you mean that you believe the soul is created from nothing by God: OK.
But if you believe the soul was once a part of God: NO!
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Robert_Sock
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forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14667549&postcount=57
I could be wrong, but check out the above link carefully and see if our souls were created by God or were an actual part of God. There are some fine lines here. The Church may teach that God created our souls from nothing, which may be perfectly true in a sense but in another sense, it could also mean that our souls are an actual image of God, taken directly from Him.
The difference may be viewed important to many Catholics, but I personally see the difference as being somewhat trivial that makes little difference to me one way or the other. God did whatever He did, and here we are. Our being here should be of major concern to us.
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