Where was Peter buried?

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Ralph:

Here is an example of what you will find in the intertestimental writings:

Ecclesiasticus 23:4-13

4 Lord, father and God of my life, do not let my eyes be proud,
5 turn envy away from me,
6 do not let lechery and lust grip me, do not leave me a prey to shameless desire.
7 Children, listen to what I teach, no one who keeps it will be caught out.
8 The sinner is ensnared by his own lips, both the abusive and the proud are tripped by them.
9 Do not get into the habit of swearing, do not make a habit of naming the Holy One;
10 for just as a slave who is constantly overseen will never be without bruises, so someone who is always swearing and uttering the Name will not be exempt from sin.
11 A man for ever swearing is full of iniquity, and the scourge will not depart from his house. If he offends, his sin will be on him, if he did it unheedingly, he has doubly sinned; if he swears a false oath, he will not be treated as innocent, for his house will be filled with calamities.
12 One way of talking is like death, let it not be found in the heritage of Jacob since devout people have nothing to do with that: they will not wallow in sin.
13 Do not get into the habit of using coarse and foul language since this involves sinful words.
 
ralphy said:
I am not sure what you mean; “where did I get the table of contents for my bible”?. Please clarify. Thanks. Ralph
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:blushing:
Marsha_Adams said:
How do you know which books should be included in the Bible?
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What she said…:yeah_me::thankyou:
ralphy said:
This is a good question Marsha. I have never looked to find out why some books are not in the KJ bible, but I will attempt to find out. I understand that the “eliminated” books were only “history” books, and probably not wtitten under the influence of the Holy Spirit. Ralph
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And you see, that is my point as well…How do you know that the Holy Spirit did not influence the writing of the books that Luther decided were “uninspired”??
Answer: Luther told you so; so, that is–Tradition. Your church’s tradition, but none the less…Or Calvin, or whomever.
There are 2 basic canons of Scripture: Catholic, and non-Catholic (Protestant).
You are using the shorter of the canons. And every single one of the three (and their subsets, like Anglican) is determined by tradition…Except that Catholics are aware of this, and accept that someone somewhere had to determine what the table of contents was going to have printed on it.
Now, I know this, and led by the wise counsel of Father Wesley, I accept the inspiration of the Holy Spirit led the authors of all the Scripture. Not just the parts that Luther decided that he liked. Which, I’m sorry, but that is how he made his decision; he just called some of the Scriptures uninspired because he didn’t like them…
I like to compare this to :wink:my own idea for a popular Bible…Instead of the 10 Commandments, it will have the:ouch: “3 Or 4 Really Good Suggestions”. Can we agree that this is a really, really:mad: bad idea???
 
mchale said:
Well, it is self evident that the Bible was written by men (though I would include the possibility that some of it might have been written by women as well). The question, however is, how do you know they were inspired by the Holy Spirit?

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Bill
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As God is the author of the bible, I believe all that it says. In 2 Tim 3:16 it says, “all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”. This should answer the question. Ralph
 
ralphy said:
As God is the author of the bible, I believe all that it says. In 2 Tim 3:16 it says, “all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”. This should answer the question. Ralph[/Qoute]

So let me see if I understand this…

You believe the Bible was written by men who were inspired by God and you believe this because the Bible says so? Not exactly a very persuasive argument…

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Bill
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mchale said:
ralphy;5566264:
As God is the author of the bible, I believe all that it says. In 2 Tim 3:16 it says, “all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”. This should answer the question. Ralph[/Qoute]

So let me see if I understand this…

You believe the Bible was written by men who were inspired by God and you believe this because the Bible says so? Not exactly a very persuasive argument…

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Bill
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I can see that God has “not” persuaded you. “He” said that the scripture was written by men who were inspired by the Holy Spirit. You will have to take this case to Him for verification, I just happen to believe what he says, maybe He can persuade you yet. Ralph
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ralphy said:
As God is the author of the bible, I believe all that it says. In 2 Tim 3:16 it says, “all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”. This should answer the question. Ralph
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Ralph:

That would include the Scripture which counsels us to obey oral tradition?

Please note the while 2 Tim. 3:16 says that ALL Scripture is given and is profitable, it does not say ONLY Scripture is given and is profitable.

Please also note that Scripture does not define itself, so how do you know what should be considered Scripture and what should not?
 
Marsha_Adams said:
Ralph:

That would include the Scripture which counsels us to obey oral tradition?

Please note the while 2 Tim. 3:16 says that ALL Scripture is given and is profitable, it does not say ONLY Scripture is given and is profitable.

Please also note that Scripture does not define itself, so how do you know what should be considered Scripture and what should not?
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Scripture means “written”, so in my humble opinion, I would say that only the written part is inspired. Oral tradition certainly is subject to changes, but the written word is not. Ralph
 
ralphy said:
Scripture means “written”, so in my humble opinion, I would say that only the written part is inspired. Oral tradition certainly is subject to changes, but the written word is not. Ralph
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So the written instructions to obey oral tradition isn’t inspired, even though it is in the Bible?

What about the other two points?
 
Marsha_Adams said:
So the written instructions to obey oral tradition isn’t inspired, even though it is in the Bible?

What about the other two points?
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Ralph cannot provide the answer to your questions, but he doesn’t have them. No one does, apart from the Catholic Church. You will be waiting until Kingdom come for any answer that does not involve the Catholic Church being the one who compiled the Bible and who decided which books were inspired. It is unassailable, fundamental, historical truth that She did.
 
ralphy said:
I can see that God has “not” persuaded you. “He” said that the scripture was written by men who were inspired by the Holy Spirit. You will have to take this case to Him for verification, I just happen to believe what he says, maybe He can persuade you yet. Ralph
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Many other books claim to be inspired, why are they not? Besides, that verse is referring to the OT.

Zach
 
ralphy said:
Because it was written by men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, as directed by God. Ralph
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Surely you are aware Mother Church gave the bible to the world. In passing, the Church was created by Jesus before the New Testament was written. Church first then New Testament.

God bless.
 
PaulF2 said:
Ralphy, you ignored my post, so I’m going to try again:

Obviously, Scripture’s revelations ENDED at a specific point.

Also, quite obviously, Scripture itself tell us that it is NOT a “be all end all manual for the faith”. Have you read it?

John tells us that there were many things that Christ said and did that were NOT written down.

Paul told his disciples to obey the ORAL teachings of the apostles. Are you familiar with any?

Scripture tells us that it is the CHURCH that is the “pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim 3:15).

In the writings of the early Fathers there are over 300 references to Peter (and Paul) teaching and being martyred in Rome.

The Church can first, and THEN the Bible. The Church produced the Bible - which did not exist until almost 400 years after Christ! Christians were dying for Christ for decades before even the first (real) gospel was written!

And the Catholic Church gave you this Bible. You trust that the Church produced a correct Bible from the hundreds of non-inspired documents out there - you trust that the Church was infallible at that time. Why was it infallible then but not now?

So, you can see that to assert that Peter was not in Rome because you do not see that written in Scripture makes no sense at all.

God bless you, Ralphy.
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Very well put Brother.

God bless.
 
Barry_Gabriel said:
The shroud has not been authenticated and current testing shows it cannot be from the time of Christ. The Church has not recognized it as an authentic relic.
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The scientists admit that they messed up and took a patch that was added to the cloth to do the Carbon Dating on. oops! They are awaiting permission to do another test.
Also the inventor of carbon dating theorized at the time the results were released that the damage done to the shroud could have skewed the results much like some artifacts from Nagasaki and Hiroshima which have skewed results due to the bombs dropped there.So there is good reason to doubt the results.
 
ralphy said:
mchale;5566345:
I can see that God has “not” persuaded you. “He” said that the scripture was written by men who were inspired by the Holy Spirit. You will have to take this case to Him for verification, I just happen to believe what he says, maybe He can persuade you yet. Ralph
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Oh, I see, so God came and told you that the Bible was inspired himself?

The biggest danger in reading the Bible is self deception. You yourself admitted you don’t know why some books should be included in the Bible and others excluded, yet you are sure you can believe the Bible is the inspired word of God? Well which Bible, the Protestant Bible, the Catholic Bible, the Ethiopian Orthodox Bible?

BTW, I don’t need persuasion. I believe the Bible is the divinely inspired word of God. I don’t however believe it simply because the Bible says it.

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Bill
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ralphy said:
Can you show me in the bible where it says to obey oral tradition? Ralph
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Really, so you haven’t read the Bible, the whole Bible at least.

For starters-

2 Thess 2:15
“15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.”

Then there’s-

1 Cor 11:2
“2 I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.”

How did Paul deliver them? By preaching, oral teaching.

Of course there’s-

2 Thess 3:6
“6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.”

Paul commands us (Catholics) to stay away from those who are not in accord with oral Tradition (non-Catholics)! He says that those who do not live in accordance with it are living in idleness.

Do you want even more proof? Look at this doozy (for you, that is)-

Acts 20:35
“35 In all things I have shown you that by so toiling one must help the weak, remembering the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”

This teaching of Jesus’ is not found anywhere in the Gospels. It was handed down orally which is call Sacred Tradition.

If you love the Bible as much as you claim to (and I’m sure you do), why don’t you start listening to it?

Zach
 
zach_dunn said:
Many other books claim to be inspired, why are they not? Besides, that verse is referring to the OT.

Zach
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I am not sure where you get the idea that it was refering to the old testament. My bible says “ALL” scripture, including the new testament. Ralph
 
mchale said:
ralphy;5566380:
Oh, I see, so God came and told you that the Bible was inspired himself?

The biggest danger in reading the Bible is self deception. You yourself admitted you don’t know why some books should be included in the Bible and others excluded, yet you are sure you can believe the Bible is the inspired word of God? Well which Bible, the Protestant Bible, the Catholic Bible, the Ethiopian Orthodox Bible?

BTW, I don’t need persuasion. I believe the Bible is the divinely inspired word of God. I don’t however believe it simply because the Bible says it.

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Bill
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You believe the bible is the inspired word of God - because? Ralph
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