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PRmerger
Guest
Could you answer this, please, benhur?
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benhur
Guest
Sorry, you take tradition one subtle step to far. 99.9999%Actually, Scripture is a product of the Holy Tradition, alongside many other products, such as the Seven Sacraments, which bear the unwritten words of Jesus within them, and the Magisterium, and the Councils, and all that arises from the Councils.
agreement is pretty good though but that .0001% is arsenic for both of us, a definite stumbling block.
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jmcrae
Guest
The Apostles weren’t following Jesus around with lined scribblers and Bic pens, or even vellum, writing knives, and various dyes, taking down notes. The first writings of the New Testament began to be penned in the 60s AD.
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Nanotwerp
Guest
What denomination, in your beliefs, were the Apostles; since they obviously weren’t Protestants, and all?
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benhur
Guest
No, they didn’t need to have those things, for perfect memory was theirs in the gifting and power of the Holy ghost . That is why it was penned that God could have given us books thru inspired writers (no need for tape recorders or Bic pens) of what Jesus said and did
to fill the earth…Again today is the day we have with us. Your argument would be like the Jews just after entreing in to the promised land saying that yes, they now have the books of Moses, they are authoritative, but not as much as Joshua and our collective giftings of the "jewish people,customs, religion "and having an “in” with Jehovah. Further, we knew of Adam to Abraham way before Moses penned a word thru oral tradition… Sorry, but they almost treated that scripture almost as you might treat a sacred relic. They had as many rules about handling it and transcribing it as you do on handling the consecrated elements of communion… Joshua, the high priest, and prophets, and kings and Pharisees, and Saducees were subject to that Written Word, and many more that followed.
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benhur
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As has been pointed out, the name “protestant” nor “Catholic” (as a noun, not adjective) were not around then . Belief’s on the other hand we have on record thru Writ and some tradition (father writings). Apostolic is as apostolic does, a Gumperism (Forest Gump movie, “stupid is as stupid does”). So, today see who is doing and preaching what the apostles did , not resting on what any church did yesterday ( admonition from Revelation 7 churches). Anything beyond that must be filter out any self serving, banner waving “parochialism”.
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spina1953
Guest
Ho benhur: What rules are you talking about? I do not see any rules in Scripture saying and also why did not all of the Apostles write instead of only a few? What rules did the Apostles use in writing down what they did write? As I did not see that one either in the NT.
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Nanotwerp
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Are you familiar with Letter to the Smyrnaeans, by any chance?
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Nanotwerp
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The section of this letter that has the term ‘Catholic’ in it refers to it as if it was around since even before then. See:
earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-smyrnaeans-hoole.html
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Nanotwerp
Guest
The Catholic and Orthodox churches seem to be preaching what the apostles did, as the apostles were most likely Catholic/Orthodox; and given how they have unbroken apostolic succession from the apostles. I can give you countless amounts of evidence in the favor of the Catholic Church’s consistent history and beliefs, but you’ll probably dismiss it because of prior biases and opinions. Do you have any evidence of there being any of your Protestant-specific beliefs during early Christianity?
Keep in mind that Ignatius of Antioch knew an apostle.
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benhur
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Yes, have to get back to you on theologically answering that. .Forgot my readings on that. But… don’t go along with those who suggest that we espouse that all you need is a bible and curl up into a ball with it and that is sufficient. Again, are in agreement of Scripture and church and Holy spirit and other Words from God and some tradition etc etc are all elements involved in “enlightenment”. Just that the custodian is not above that which she keeps and is under same constrictions of being “materially” sufficient but not formally either. Being “tight” with the custodian may or may not enlighten you. Reading what she keeps may or may not enlighten you. Why even those that hung out with the author of the writings were not all enlightened (even the author was only materially sufficient while 3 plus years on earth ).
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benhur
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Hi baby boomer Spina.What post of mine are you referring to ?
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Nanotwerp
Guest
The Holy Bible isn’t all that you need, by the way. You do realize that every one of your pastors and bishops have different beliefs, right? How do you know which one is right? You don’t have a united Church, so you wouldn’t know.
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benhur
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Ignatius but zero memory of content, but definitely a backslapper of heirarchy, some beautiful writing but almost to the point of puzzlement to motive. Reminds me of travelling pastors who really lift up with a flattering tongue the home pastors who invited them to speak, barely knowing them.
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Celtic_Maiden
Guest
These links might help you to understand the majority of people were Roman Catholic or Orthodox, after 1500 we had various heresies, made up by disgruntled men, I will send you the Link.
Catholicism is Christianity at its fullest expression.
Catholicism is pre denominational. We are the Originals.
Who put the Bible to gether , yes we did the Roman Catholic Church, as it was the only Church standing and in existence and founded by Jesus Christ.
Galatians. 1:8/9
But even if we or an Angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than the one that we preached to you let that one be accursed. As we have said before and now I say again if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed.
ignitumtoday.com/2014/09/06/calvinism-vs-sacred-heart-jesus/
catholicherald.co.uk/features/2014/04/24/megachurch-pastor-ulf-ekman-we-need-what-the-lord-has-given-to-the-catholic-church-to-live-fully-as-Christians/
How Old is Your Church?
How Old is Your Church?
AUTHOR UNKNOWN
If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.
If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.
If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.
If you are a Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.
If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.
If you are a Methodist, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.
If you are a Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your church in London in 1774.
If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y., in 1829.
If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1608.
If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.
If you are a member of the Churches of Christ your church began near the beginning of the 19th century in New England. Abner Jones, Barton Stone and Alexander Campbell were some of the most well known originators of your religion.
If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.
If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.
If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as “Church of the Nazarene,” “Pentecostal Gospel,” “Holiness Church,” “Pilgrim Holiness Church,” “Jehovah’s Witnesses,” your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past century.
If you are Roman Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ the Son of God, and it is still the same Church.
Catholicism is Christianity at its fullest expression.
Catholicism is pre denominational. We are the Originals.
Who put the Bible to gether , yes we did the Roman Catholic Church, as it was the only Church standing and in existence and founded by Jesus Christ.
Galatians. 1:8/9
But even if we or an Angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than the one that we preached to you let that one be accursed. As we have said before and now I say again if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed.
ignitumtoday.com/2014/09/06/calvinism-vs-sacred-heart-jesus/
catholicherald.co.uk/features/2014/04/24/megachurch-pastor-ulf-ekman-we-need-what-the-lord-has-given-to-the-catholic-church-to-live-fully-as-Christians/
How Old is Your Church?
How Old is Your Church?
AUTHOR UNKNOWN
If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.
If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.
If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.
If you are a Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.
If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.
If you are a Methodist, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.
If you are a Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your church in London in 1774.
If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y., in 1829.
If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1608.
If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.
If you are a member of the Churches of Christ your church began near the beginning of the 19th century in New England. Abner Jones, Barton Stone and Alexander Campbell were some of the most well known originators of your religion.
If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.
If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.
If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as “Church of the Nazarene,” “Pentecostal Gospel,” “Holiness Church,” “Pilgrim Holiness Church,” “Jehovah’s Witnesses,” your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past century.
If you are Roman Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ the Son of God, and it is still the same Church.
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spina1953
Guest
Sorry about that it is post 284 I believe.
With due respect to Mr./Ms. Unknown, nonsense. Luther did not found a Church.
As Lutherans, we preach Christ crucified, and confess the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Hence, there is but One Holy Church, founded by Christ at Pentecost, and we are members of it, as are you.
Jon
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benhur
Guest
Yes, the word catholic has been around since the early Greek language, way before the Church. As I stated in another post, that here it is an adjective not a noun. Eventually it did become a “capital C” but not here, not yet. As there was a universal church then, there is now. That you call yourself “universal” with a capital C does not mean that you are exclusive to others, just as being called the “Church of God” or Jehovah’s Witness’s does .
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benhur
Guest
Right, that is what folks say is materially sufficient but not formally. I thought I listed quite a few other things that may be helpful (materially), did I not ?
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benhur
Guest
I am still lost to your question.
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