Where were the Protestants before the 1500's?

[benhur]

When you say things like this, it seems that you are lacking understanding of God’s plan for humanity.

Because I question the ability of those in heaven to hear and see all things on earth, as in prayers to them, I am derided by saying I must think them all deaf and dumb, and I lack understanding ?

Becoming partakers of His divine nature is not the same as becoming God. If by “Godlike” you mean that we can experience some aspects of the divine nature, like knowing things other than by logic (by spiritual revelation), these are gifts given by God.

No I meant being Godlike with His qualities of being all hearing and all seeing as in everywhere present, as in hearing prayers from down on Earth.

If Jesus could have a chat with Moses and Elijah, why could we not?

Twist and turn . On one hand when scripture says all have sinned you say well it is just an expression with exceptions, as in Mary. And when the Transfiguration occurs for validation of the Messiah, it means we too can talk to the saints beyond, even bring them up in visions (Mary again). OK but it is a stretch.
Don’t forget these: “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh” Exodus 7:1 and Psalm 82:1 says, “God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the gods”.

 

[Dalphon]

The Holy Spirit has led the Church to purge all heresies from the first century until now. How come the Holy Spirit did not eliminate the beliefs about Mary?

I never said Catholic beliefs about Mary are heresy. I said Catholic beliefs about Mary were not included in the texts I quoted.

John 3:16-21
Acts 8:34-36
Acts 10:34-43
Acts 16:25-30

 

[pablope]

Because I question the ability of those in heaven to hear and see all things on earth, as in prayers to them, I am derided by saying I must think them all deaf and dumb, and I lack understanding ?

Going by your Bible alone paradigm…(Matthew 22:30) but are like angels[a] in heaven…I do not think you are dumb or so…but just find it incredulous you still cling to this belief, maybe.

Have you explored the Jewish roots of the belief in the saints in early Christianity? (
calledtocommunion.com/2012/08/relics-saints-and-the-assumption-of-mary/)

No I meant being Godlike with His qualities of being all hearing and all seeing as in everywhere present, as in hearing prayers from down on Earth.

 

[pablope]

I never said Catholic beliefs about Mary are heresy. I said Catholic beliefs about Mary were not included in the texts I quoted.

John 3:16-21
Acts 8:34-36
Acts 10:34-43
Acts 16:25-30

So why not include the bible texts about Mary?

 

[Dalphon]

So, according to your actions, all the Corinthians should have left the Church by that time, right?

Well he’s not saying that. He’s saying expel the immoral person. If they expelled the immoral person or people then the problem and any future problem of that kind will not happen again. But if you let that problem continue over a period of 7 decades then you are saying “We tolerate that here.” In that case I’m not sticking around.

 

[Randy_Carson]

ALL-

You can continue this rambling thread if you like, but there are so many topics on the table that nothing is really being accomplished. However, if you want to make real headway with our non-Catholic guest, I encourage you to focus on one issue and one issue only:

Why did Dalphon leave the Catholic Church?

He wrote:

Originally Posted by Dalphon View Post
I’m not out of the Church because of what they teach but because of what they do.

Folks, Jesus told his followers that they MUST obey the religious leaders because their authority was legitimate. Dalphon has done the opposite, and this is clearly unbiblical.

So, unless everyone is just having fun sparring in the ring while Dalphon dances from one topic to another never bothering to follow a single argument to its logical conclusion, I suggest we focus on this one issue:

Why is Dalphon disobeying Jesus by basing *his *decision to leave the Catholic Church because of what Catholic leaders have done instead of on the theologically sound things that those leaders say?

 

[Dalphon]

But that’s not what you did. You didn’t “get rid of people in the church who are immoral.” You left the Catholic Church because you didn’t like what some people (leaders, presumably) were doing.

Second, you’re not in a position of authority to make those decisions, anyway. No one gave you the right to get rid of anyone.

Third, if we get rid of EVERYONE who is immoral, the Church will be empty, because we’re all sinners.



You’re attempting to justify yourself.

Jesus said that we must not do what corrupt leaders do, but we must do what they say because they have legitimate authority from God.

You have chosen to do the opposite. Thus, you are not only not obeying legitimate leaders but you are not obeying Jesus, either.

By your own words you are condemned.

So, according to your actions, all the Corinthians should have left the Church by that time, right?

Well he’s not saying that. He’s saying expel the immoral person. If they expelled the immoral person or people then the problem and any future problem of that kind will not happen again. But if you let that problem continue over a period of 7 decades then you are saying “We tolerate that here.” In that case I’m not sticking around.

 

[PRmerger]

Because I question the ability of those in heaven to hear and see all things on earth, as in prayers to them, I am derided by saying I must think them all deaf and dumb, and I lack understanding ?

You seem to be contradicting Scripture when you question the ability of those in heaven to do what “eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”–1 Cor 2:9

There is NO SCRIPTURE VERSE that says that those in heaven are isolated from us, and have no idea what’s going on with their brothers and sisters here on earth.

And there are indeed verses which demonstrate that they are indeed participating in preparing the kingdom with those of us here, serving as so great a cloud of witnesses, (Hebrews 12:1), as well as offering our prayers before the eternal throne of heaven (Revelation 5:8).

 

[Randy_Carson]

Well he’s not saying that. He’s saying expel the immoral person. If they expelled the immoral person or people then the problem and any future problem of that kind will not happen again. But if you let that problem continue over a period of 7 decades then you are saying “We tolerate that here.” In that case I’m not sticking around.

Jesus didn’t give you permission to not “stick around”, did he?

He said, “you must obey.”

Why did you really leave?

Were you an altar boy or a seminarian?

 

[PRmerger]

On one hand when scripture says all have sinned you say well it is just an expression with exceptions, as in Mary.

Well, you do, too.

Unless you think there are no exceptions?

All have sinned?

All?

What would you say to a Muslim then who says: benhur, even your Scriptures profess that your Jesus sinned. Do your Scriptures not say that ALL have sinned?

The Catholic can respond, “Well, we do see that there are exceptions.”

Your response would be “Right. No exceptions. ALL have sinned.”???

 

[Randy_Carson]

Because I question the ability of those in heaven to hear and see all things on earth, as in prayers to them, I am derided by saying I must think them all deaf and dumb, and I lack understanding ?
No I meant being Godlike with His qualities of being all hearing and all seeing as in everywhere present, as in hearing prayers from down on Earth.
Twist and turn . On one hand when scripture says all have sinned you say well it is just an expression with exceptions, as in Mary. And when the Transfiguration occurs for validation of the Messiah, it means we too can talk to the saints beyond, even bring them up in visions (Mary again). OK but it is a stretch.
Don’t forget these: “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh” Exodus 7:1 and Psalm 82:1 says, “God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the gods”.

Check out “divinization” or theosis.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divinization_(Christian

Catechism of the Catholic Church
460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.”79 “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.”80 “The only–begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”81 (1265, 1391, 1988)

 

[jmcrae]

Your paradigm is needlessly superfluous. You go from Godlike to deaf and dumb. Don’t forget blind and we are back to the 3 monkeys.

Heaven isn’t a “place”; it’s the state of having been made holy. We won’t be limited as we are right now.

 

[pablope]

Well he’s not saying that. He’s saying expel the immoral person. If they expelled the immoral person or people then the problem and any future problem of that kind will not happen again. But if you let that problem continue over a period of 7 decades then you are saying “We tolerate that here.” In that case I’m not sticking around.

9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

Well…the passage says do not associate…by not associating…do you mean to take this to leave the Church?

So instead of praying for the Church leaders that they reform the Church and themselves, as we are told to do in here:

-1 Timothy 2:1-3
“1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior…”

18 Pray for us.
and Heb 13:
17 Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.

18 Pray for us.

You instead did was not pleasing to God (1Tim2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior) by leaving His Church?

So what happens when you do what is not pleasing to God?

1 Samuel 15:22-23
22 But Samuel replied:
“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination,
and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,
he has rejected you as king.”

 

[Denise1957]

Why is Dalphon disobeying Jesus by basing *his *decision to leave the Catholic Church because of what Catholic leaders have done instead of on the theologically sound things that those leaders say?

I don’t think it’s at all unusual for a Catholic to leave the Church due to what they believe to be an injustice or injury of some type. I don’t need to know the details of what Dalphon experienced or saw, but I think it’s a good idea to address his concerns over the sometimes blatant difference between Church teaching, and the behavior of those in the Church when they go against Church teachings. Also, I’m not so sure that we always have to obey, if the person who whom we would presume to obey acts in a manner that goes against Church teachings (if this is the situation to which Dalphon is trying to get at - I’m not really sure).

On the other hand, I’d also like to point out that there were situations when Our Lord could have banished serious sinners (such as Judas Iscariot), but he didn’t. Our Lord also said something about not separating the wheat from the chaff until harvest. We’ll always have serious sinners in the Church, even if we try to somehow “get rid” of them all, more would follow due to original sin. But we should, IMO, follow the lead of St. John the Baptist in calling out serious sin, because of the harm and scandal it can cause.

 

[Dalphon]

Except that we’re not sparring for fun. We’re trying to help people see the truth.

As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another. Good can come from a healthy competition.

And the haymaker that you have not responded to adequately was delivered in posts #751 & 798.

I see that you are quick to quote verses that you think apply to what you believe errors of the Catholic Church, but when I quote a verse that proves beyond question that your reason for leaving the Catholic Church is unbiblical, you’re down for the count.

I had a very long phone call. See 820.

 

[Dalphon]

No, it IS a Tradition. Capital T as well. It is a Tradition established by the Apostles not found in the Bible.

An example of a discipline would be Priest celibacy.

I don’t know if they meet on Sunday because it’s a tradition not found in the bible. They never spoke about that. All I know is if I show up at 10a any other day of the week no one will be there. They also meet 1 day for prayer and 1 day for bible study. That’s not a tradition of the apostles.

Most people work Mon-Fri so it has to be either Sat or Sun for worship. If they met on Sat we would also be disputing about that.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I don’t think it’s at all unusual for a Catholic to leave the Church due to what they believe to be an injustice or injury of some type.

Sadly, I agree.

I don’t need to know the details of what Dalphon experienced or saw,

Nor do I. The lurid details don’t interest me. But I am interested in some honesty, and I’m asking because I don’t think Dalphon is being honest with us or himself. He claims to have all these objections to Catholicism, but his arguments are easily refuted. This leads me to believe that they are just a smoke screen for something deeper.

Deal honestly with that and the reconciliation may begin.

but I think it’s a good idea to address his concerns over the sometimes blatant difference between Church teaching, and the behavior of those in the Church when they go against Church teachings.

Sure. But Dalphon hasn’t been complaining about celibate priests engaging in pedophilia. Instead, he’s been all over the map with one doctrinal issue after another. His complaints are a mile wide but only an inch deep.

Also, I’m not so sure that we always have to obey, if the person who whom we would presume to obey acts in a manner that goes against Church teachings

Sure. If there was a problem with a single priest or bishop, simply move to a different parish. Instead, Dalphon left the Church completely, and I don’t see where Jesus gave us the liberty to do that.

On the other hand, I’d also like to point out that there were situations when Our Lord could have banished serious sinners (such as Judas Iscariot), but he didn’t. Our Lord also said something about not separating the wheat from the chaff until harvest. We’ll always have serious sinners in the Church, even if we try to somehow “get rid” of them all, more would follow due to original sin. But we should, IMO, follow the lead of St. John the Baptist in calling out serious sin, because of the harm and scandal it can cause.

Well, said.

 

[Randy_Carson]

As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another. Good can come from a healthy competition.

I love that verse and quote it often. As long as the competition IS healthy.

I had a very long phone call. See 820.

Yeah. See post 822.

 

[Dalphon]

So why not include the bible texts about Mary?

Because my point is they didn’t mention Mary every time they preached the gospel. I can include the texts about Mary and still say they didn’t speak about Mary every time.

 

[PRmerger]

Twist and turn . On one hand when scripture says all have sinned you say well it is just an expression with exceptions, as in Mary.

Well, you do, too.

Unless you think there are no exceptions?

All have sinned?

All?

What would you say to a Muslim then who says: benhur, even your Scriptures profess that your Jesus sinned. Do your Scriptures not say that ALL have sinned?

The Catholic can respond, “Well, we do see that there are exceptions.”

Your response would be “Right. No exceptions. ALL have sinned.”???

Also, benhur, what answer will you give to the atheist who says, “How can you be a follower of Christianity, which proclaims that even little babies have sinned? For your Bible says that ALL have sinned, right?”

You will have to answer, sadly, “Yes, my interpretation of Scripture does believe that ALL have sinned means NO EXCEPTIONS. And that means that this little guy has sinned, according to my church:”

http://pickcute.com/upload/img/cute-baby-3336.jpg

No wonder the atheist will not be amenable to exploring Christianity.