Where were the Protestants before the 1500's?

[House_Harkonnen]

This doesn’t actually address the point, HH.

What you have professed, when you state that the early Christians knew what the early Christian inspired texts were, is a belief in Sacred Tradition. As Catholics understand it.

Not as Lutherans understand it.

IOW: you believe that Sacred Tradition AND Sacred Scripture are 2 channels of the Word of God.

That’s one step closer to being Catholic than being Lutheran.

Thank you for letting me know.

I should change my view immediately.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Since John the Apostle with the rest of the Apostles preached and taught, and since there was no NT to speak of that was written down as Sacred Scripture at that time, just how did the Christians know what sacred Scripture were the Apostles referring to? that was not yet the NT? Most of been tradition passed on to them by Jesus Himself with the Holy Spirit reminding them of all that Jesus taught them?

I don’t understand the question. Could you rephrase it?

 

[guanophore]

And ? Yes our churches have liturgy and liturgy came before NT.

It is a testimony to the Word of God present in the Church.

“And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers”. 1 Thessalonians 2:13–14

The Word of God has never been confined to Holy Scripture. It has always been alive and well in the Church.

That there are biblical truths in liturgy does not then elevate liturgy to the level of biblical truth.that early or even any now have biblical truth only shows the accepted authority of Scripture.

You are not making sense, Ben. The Liturgy and the Word of God present in the Church came first, from whence the Scripture emanated.

Yes, the Liturgy and the Word of God at work in the believers does testify to the authority of the Scriptures. If not, we would not have a canon.

 

[jmcrae]

My church has liturgy that came before NT.

And priests who can trace the authority that makes their Ordination to be valid, in a direct line to the commissioning of St. Peter by Christ.

 

[jmcrae]

I don’t understand the question. Could you rephrase it?

Without a Bible (the codex of gathered works, written down, printed, and ordered into pages), how did the Early Church know what “the Scriptures” were?

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Without a Bible (the codex of gathered works, written down, printed, and ordered into pages), how did the Early Church know what “the Scriptures” were?

Ah ok.

They had the jewish scriptures. And they had the writings of the apostles circulating. And they had the tradition passed down to them.

 

[guanophore]

And there is an ancient entrenched perception that by works of righteousness, even keeping the law, we can be blameless.

Yes, very ancient, called Pelagianism, a heresy defeated by the Church in the early centuries.

Any doctrine, carried to the extreme, can create a heresy. Just yesterday I read on CAF where a well meaning Christian claimed that Jesus was no longer of the same divine substance, having becom:shrug:e man.

 

[Memaw]

As others have said, they were in the 14 th century and the 13 th and, well, from the beginning. The real question is what made it necessary for such a big reformation and why did it succeed where smaller ones failed ?

What has it succeeded in doing except confuse, split into 40.000 denominations and go along with secular society, disagree with each other and badmouth Catholic truths. It really hasn’t succeeded now has it?? Catholic truths are the same today as they were 2,000 years ago when Christ gave them to her and they will be the same truths till the end of the world. God Bless, Memaw

 

[guanophore]

Sort of. Christians knew what scripture was before any Pope or council told them what it was.

Indeed yes. Because the Word of God, already at work in the Church, resonated when it was read to them. They had received and held fast to the Sacred Tradition, out of which the Scriptures came.

The latest NT book was writing around AD 100. What liturgy does your denomination use that was created before that?

The one that was taught to Paul, transmitted by him, and written about in the NT.

The John’s Gospel was written by a sacramental and liturgical community, which is why we understand it’s contents so differently.

Which sacred tradition?

The one that was commanded by the Apostle, of course.

“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” I Thess 2:15

Can you see that appealing to Sacred Tradition is a recipe for disunity and division?

No, appealing to the Word of God alive and well in the Church is never divisive. How can holding fast to what we have received from the Apostles be divisive? How could any Apostolic command be divisive?

I see that the ignorance and ego of man causes disunity and division. And I see the devil dancing over it.

 

[guanophore]

This doesn’t actually address the point, HH.

What you have professed, when you state that the early Christians knew what the early Christian inspired texts were, is a belief in Sacred Tradition. As Catholics understand it.

Not as Lutherans understand it.

IOW: you believe that Sacred Tradition AND Sacred Scripture are 2 channels of the Word of God.

That’s one step closer to being Catholic than being Lutheran.

I don’t think so, PR. I think HH is referring to the experience of one’s heart burning within when one hears the Word of God.

 

[jmcrae]

Ah ok.

They had the jewish scriptures. And they had the writings of the apostles circulating. And they had the tradition passed down to them.

Bingo.

This is what we call Catholic Tradition.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

I don’t think so, PR. I think HH is referring to the experience of one’s heart burning within when one hears the Word of God.

Not really. Since that would reduce it to our feelings. I am talking about the church as a whole.

I feel my heart burning when I read Shelley’s poetry. But I wouldn’t judge that it is Gods word.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Bingo.

This is what we call Catholic Tradition.

Which one? Lots of people have told me I need to be following “Sacred Tradition”. No one has told me what exactly is contained therein, or how I can judge who has the correct one.

 

[jmcrae]

Which one? Lots of people have told me I need to be following “Sacred Tradition”. No one has told me what exactly is contained therein, or how I can judge who has the correct one.

Which Bishop is sitting in Peter’s chair? Follow him!

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Which Bishop is sitting in Peter’s chair? Follow him!

I see, that’s the bishop of Antioch.

But there are no fewer than 5 guys currently claiming that office. Which of them should I go with?

 

[benhur]

Ben, in regards to your quote from St. John, one does not have to be sinless to be in a state of Grace. One just cannot be guilty of “mortal sin” (or what St. Paul calls deadly sin).

granted, but I used the scripture to balance guanophore’s post #138 of, " it is now possible to live without sin… following all of His commandments. "

Grace is granted to use via the Seven Sacraments. Since Protestants do no believe in the Seven Sacraments (which are all held by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and the Church of the East – which I will call Apostolic Churches), Baptized Protestants must make Perfect Acts of Contrition in order to return to a State of Grace. Members of Apostolic Churches utilize the Sacrament of Penance (also call Reconciliation and Confession) to return us to Grace even if we only have an Imperfect Act of Contrition.

Well maybe God is the author of perfect thought and discernment to every jot and tittle of a rite etc., but like the Pharisees, by ourselves we can get it all muddled up in minutia. Yes we can have the mind of Christ yet at times He uses the KISS principle, as in" keep it simple stupid".

 

[guanophore]

Not really. Since that would reduce it to our feelings. I am talking about the church as a whole.

I feel my heart burning when I read Shelley’s poetry. But I wouldn’t judge that it is Gods word.

32 And they said one to the other: Was not our heart burning within us, whilst he spoke in the way and opened to us the scriptures? Luke 24:32

You quoted the scripture that His Sheep hear His voice, and this is true. When His sheep hear HIs voice, their hearts burn within them. But I am not suggesting that you are relying on this only, because I don’t see that you reject Sacred Tradition. As PR has indicated, you have accepted the NT canon through the Church.

I see, that’s the bishop of Antioch.

But there are no fewer than 5 guys currently claiming that office. Which of them should I go with?

Apostolic succession does not come only through the successors of Peter, but from all the Apostles, and their successors, the Bishops. It is not impossible for many bishops to come from the line of Peter in Antioch.

 

[spina1953]

I don’t understand the question. Could you rephrase it?

HH: It was in response to your question or maybe answer The sheep hear the shepherds voice John 10:27. I will rephrase the question. How did the early Christians know the NT when there was no NT written and also the Apostles and those who wrote that did become the NT they themselves did not know that what they wrote was sacred Scripture, so iows how did the first Christians know?

 

[benhur]

I don’t know what this means… Catholics believe we are saved by sanctifying Grace alone.

However, **to gain Grace…(you) must also have “works.” **,

Is that an oxymoron ?

 

[benhur]

But St. Irenaeus never reduced “the Gospel” down to the printed page as per post 114 (bold and ul of St. Irenaeus quote added for clarity to what I am referring to).

Irenaeus did not address our issue of scripture vs oral /tradition or even even council as we do today. He said what we all agree with, that of course first came the oral, and subsequently written Scripture. He did not pit one against the other, I don’t think. Here is his quote, " which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures,".

IF St. Irenaeus asserted sola Scriptura (in the sense of formal sufficiency) . . . .
. . . what he stated elsewhere in the same “Against Heresies” would be non-sense.
ST. IRENAEUS But, again, when we refer them to that tradition which originates from the apostles, [and] which is preserved by means of the succession of presbyters in the Churches, they object to tradition, saying that they themselves are wiser not merely than the presbyters, but even than the apostles, because they have discovered the unadulterated truth. . . . .

Again, Irenaeus did not address our issue and it would be wrong to say he pitted tradition as something apart from Scripture as we do today. He addressed those who believed in something different not found in both the Scriptures and the apostles and their succeeding presbyters.

If faith comes through hearing the word preached (as St. Paul says in Romans 10:17), then that asserts the necessity of preaching (which is a “work”. And it is a “work” going on BEFORE the New Testament was even written).

Wow, so hearing is a work? Preaching may be, on the part of the evangelist, but the listening ? Well then I suppose there are a multitude of works necessary, try like breathing, eating, walking etc. for without those you won’t be brought to the position of hearing.

Yet you seem to be assuming “the word of God” is reducible to the printed page (bold of your quote below mine).

Right , the Word is everything God speaks, as in thru Scripture or the oral pronouncements, andthru personal revelation also . As Augustine says , “He speaks to us”.

ncidentally, I am not denying Apostolic Tradition is “preserved” by the Scriptures too. I am asserting Apostolic Tradition is not “preserved” by the Scriptures ALONE. St. Ireneaus seems to be asserting the exact same thing.

No, Irenaeus is not addressing our situation beyond what we both agree with that Scripture and oral/tradition existed then as now but then they were both quite cohesive and simpler.