Where were the Protestants before the 1500's?

[pablope]

It’s not dead. Many Catholics were taught you must go through Mary to get to Jesus. The folks who exalted Mary to the level of God are now considered saints and doctors of the Church. Among them are John Paul II and St. Alphonsus Liguori.

So let me ask…do you think JPII and ST. Aphonsius Ligouri were bad catholic, ableit, bad Christians, for being Marian devotees?

Do you think they are in heaven or hell for what you think they taught and advocated?

And actually, if you think about it and do more research, you will find that our veneration of the Mother of God has also Jewish roots:

ldsguy2catholic.wordpress.com/

In the Introduction to the book, titled “How I Discovered the Jewish Origins of Catholicism”, essentially giving an overview of his conversion to Catholicism after being a priest in another faith, Dr. Marshall recounts an experience he had talking with a Rabbi in a hospital waiting room (Dr. Marshall was visiting someone as a priest), who told him that Jews believe that “if someone is suffering and you invoke the name of his or her mother in prayer, God will be more merciful in granting your prayer for that person“. Dr. Marshall then goes on to make a connection with the Catholic veneration of the Virgin Mary, and goes on from there:

If Jews believed that invoking the mother of someone caused God to be more gracious in answering an intercession, then wouldn’t the name of Mary be worth invoking? Even more, Mary wasn’t just an ordinary mother. She was the only person ever created who could speak to God about our Son. That’s when it hit me. Catholic devotion to Mary is not merely based on sound Christological arguments. Veneration for the Blessed Mother is not just only in the writings of the early Church. Reaching back even further, the Church reveres and invokes the Blessed Mother because it inherited the Jewish custom of showing profound reverence for the spiritual role of the mother in a family. The rabbi’s answer was a surprising confirmation that Catholic customs are rooted in a Jewish understanding of reality.

 

[zz912]

I already did that in post #318

Hebrews 4:16
Let us, therefore, come boldly unto the throne of his grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Ephesians 3:12
In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

John 6:37 All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Matt 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” 29"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.…

Those are great verses, but why do you ignore the verses in Revelation which specifically describe the angels and saints taking our prayers and presenting them to God?

 

[Porknpie]

Since I was not educated in their schools I don’t know what they teach, but if they teach salvation comes through Mary alone

Dalphon, with no disrespect, just curiosity, where do you get this (mis)understand of what Catholic’s believe?

and we must approach Jesus through Mary,

And this comment too?

Who has led you to believe that these are Catholic teaching(s)?

 

[pablope]

The bible says “pray for one another.” That’s what the apostles taught. We don’t see them teaching “pray to the saints and angels.”

Well…how do you know they did not? Did everything they taught orally, was it ever written down on papyrus?

As I said before, after the resurrection of Jesus heaven was opened up to those who had died for their faith under the old covenant. The apostles never prayed to the Jewish saints such as Moses, Noah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah etc.

 

[spina1953]

Since I was not educated in their schools I don’t know what they teach, but if they teach salvation comes through Mary alone and we must approach Jesus through Mary, then they are also not being true to the apostolic message.

Yes. That’s right. You are good, devout people. Everyone on CAF is. Nothing personal against you or anyone else I communicate with. My complaint is with the confusing and complicated way the gospel is presented by the Church. The pope now says atheists can be saved if they do good. Pope Benedict and Pope John said Jews can be saved under the old covenant. The catechism says the plan of salvation includes the Muslims. Those who where the scapula can be saved by wearing the scapula. It goes on and on. When are they just going to proclaim the gospel?

Hi Dalphon: As a Discalced Secular Carmelite I wear the Brown Scapular, I had worn a cross for most of my life but it only reminded me to try to be a good Christian in the Catholic tradition. I never thought it would save me nor did the CC teach that the wearing of the cross was going to save me and as a Carmelite the brown Scapular is not going to save me neither. Sorry but the CC does not teach those type of things in order to be saved. it is by the Grace of God through Christ Jesus that saves. And one more point It is God through Christ that decides who is saved and who is not. Believing is not enough as even the devil believes in God though he does not accept God.

 

[Porknpie]

Since I was not educated in their schools I don’t know what they teach, but if they teach salvation comes through Mary alone and we must approach Jesus through Mary, then they are also not being true to the apostolic message.

Dalphon,

Here’s what the Catechism says about salvation below, bolded text by me for emphasis.

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation:** the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation**; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

Also, here is a link to the Catechism’s text on Mary. Nothing here about salvation through Mary. What Mary does do, in my words, is to call all of us to her Son saying “do whatever he tells you.”

 

[Porknpie]

God creates a guardian angel that looks out specifically for you. And your reaction to that is one of ignoring this special angel.

That seems a tad rude.

Perhaps not rude but perhaps lacking faith that God created angels for each one of us.

Matthew 18:10
"See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven always look upon the face of my heavenly Father.

Seems to me that if God created them for us, that we should give them our due attention and ask for their intercession to God as they DO look upon the face of the Father, sharing in His Divine nature.

 

[Dalphon]

God creates a guardian angel that looks out specifically for you. And your reaction to that is one of ignoring this special angel.

That seems a tad rude.

That angel and the holy spirit were with me from the womb. They know everything about me. If they thought I was rude they would have told me by now. If an angel comes to me in a dream or an awake state I will talk to him.

And what does it mean to “believe”. Do you view this word as some emotional response? Or is it something that must be acted upon?

Yes, acted upon, living faith, even the demons believe and shudder. I don’t believe in once saved always saved.

Those are great verses, but why do you ignore the verses in Revelation which specifically describe the angels and saints taking our prayers and presenting them to God?

The angels and saints take our prayers to God period. There are no conditions attached to it. Pray to God, pray to the angels - whatever. I pray to God.

 

[Dalphon]

Hi Dalphon: As a Discalced Secular Carmelite I wear the Brown Scapular, I had worn a cross for most of my life but it only reminded me to try to be a good Christian in the Catholic tradition. I never thought it would save me nor did the CC teach that the wearing of the cross was going to save me and as a Carmelite the brown Scapular is not going to save me neither. Sorry but the CC does not teach those type of things in order to be saved. it is by the Grace of God through Christ Jesus that saves. And one more point It is God through Christ that decides who is saved and who is not. Believing is not enough as even the devil believes in God though he does not accept God.

Yeah, that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying the Catholic faith has become too complicated.

 

[Dalphon]

Dalphon, with no disrespect, just curiosity, where do you get this (mis)understand of what Catholic’s believe?

Have you ever read “The Glories of Mary?” St. Alphonsus Liguori was a doctor of the Church.

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
​

I know. They say there is no salvation outside the catholic church and then they say Jews, Protestants and Muslims can be saved.

Also, here is a link to the Catechism’s text on Mary. Nothing here about salvation through Mary. What Mary does do, in my words, is to call all of us to her Son saying “do whatever he tells you.”

To reach the Eternal Father, we must go to Jesus, our Mediator of Redemption . . . To go to Jesus, we must go to Mary: she is our Mediatrix of Intercession.
St. Louis Marie de Montfort

By the will of God nothing is conferred upon us except by means of Mary; and just as no one is able to approach the Most High Father except through His Son, so too no one approaches Christ but through Mary His Mother.
St. Maximilian Mary Kolbe

We cannot approach Jesus but through Mary; we can see Jesus and speak to Him only by means of her.
St. Louis Marie de Montfort

No one ever finds Christ but with and through Mary. Whoever seeks Christ apart from Mary seeks Him in vain.
St. Bonaventure​

 

[Dalphon]

So let me ask…do you think JPII and ST. Aphonsius Ligouri were bad catholic, ableit, bad Christians, for being Marian devotees?

Not at all. They were very good representatives of the Catholic faith but they were not straightforward with the gospel message.

Do you think they are in heaven or hell for what you think they taught and advocated

I’m not qualified to make that decision. All I’m saying is if you tell people they must accept Mary to be saved you are revising the original gospel message.

 

[clem456]

No questions, just a plea for simplification. What must I do to be saved? Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.

You must “know” Jesus to be saved.
Who is Jesus?
The Gospels are loud and clear that Jesus is the Son of God, incarnate in human flesh. He is God’s fullest revelation, the name by which all are saved. He is born of a woman. God reveals himself fully through a woman, Mary. God makes her “yes” fruitful.
According to the specific statements of the Gospel, the virgin conceives, through the action of the Holy Spirit.

God entrusts the fullness of revelation to humankind through a specific woman who lived at a specific time in a specific place. She is not a fictional character. The Gospels specifically proclaim this. The saints you cited say nothing contrary to sound Christian doctrine. They merely observe what is revealed.
The other Gospel passages you cited contradict nothing in the passages that reference May, Mother of God.

 

[clem456]

Not at all. They were very good representatives of the Catholic faith but they were not straightforward with the gospel message.

I’m not qualified to make that decision. All I’m saying is if you tell people they must accept Mary to be saved you are revising the original gospel message.

Well, you must be in union with Christ. And Christ has a mother, by definition of who he is.
How can you accept the Incarnation of Christ without accepting his mother?

 

[clem456]

Our Catechism talks about the grace which God pours out.

GOD’S SALVATION: LAW AND GRACE

ARTICLE 2
GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION

I. JUSTIFICATION

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:34

It’s noteworthy that the scriptures identify Mary as “ke-charitomene” or full of grace. She is so full that she conceives Christ through the Holy Spirit!! The grace required to save us is already given to Mary…this grace is revealed through her “fiat” in the incarnation of Christ.

 

[spina1953]

Yeah, that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying the Catholic faith has become too complicated.

Hi Dalphon: I think it only complicated if makes it so. For me its not complicated at all, it seems simple when one understands it.

 

[pablope]

Not at all. They were very good representatives of the Catholic faith but they were not straightforward with the gospel message.

Well, what do you think is the Gospel message, in a straighforward way, should it be? And according to whose interpretation?

I’m not qualified to make that decision. All I’m saying is if you tell people they must accept Mary to be saved you are revising the original gospel message.

 

[Kliska]

Well, you must be in union with Christ. And Christ has a mother, by definition of who he is.
How can you accept the Incarnation of Christ without accepting his mother?

But I think that line of thinking can only be taken so far and still fall within the claim that the Marian dogmas are actually about Jesus in the end. I’ve stated elsewhere I honestly do think that the fact that anyone interested in joining the RCC now has to confess things directly about someone other than Jesus or else they are not allowed to join is problematic if we believe there is no other name by which we must be saved.

I can readily call Mary Theotokos, and confess that Jesus honored her, and confess that she was and is highly favored, and blessed amongst women, that she was a virgin, that Jesus’ Father was and is God Himself. I can confess about Jesus that He is God, that He fulfilled all that was asked of Him under the law including honoring Mary. But that is now not enough to warrant entrance to the RCC.

 

[clem456]

But I think that line of thinking can only be taken so far and still fall within the claim that the Marian dogmas are actually about Jesus in the end. I’ve stated elsewhere I honestly do think that the fact that anyone interested in joining the RCC now has to confess things directly about someone other than Jesus or else they are not allowed to join is problematic if we believe there is no other name by which we must be saved.

I can readily call Mary Theotokos, and confess that Jesus honored her, and confess that she was and is highly favored, and blessed amongst women, that she was a virgin, that Jesus’ Father was and is God Himself. I can confess about Jesus that He is God, that He fulfilled all that was asked of Him under the law including honoring Mary. But that is now not enough to warrant entrance to the RCC.

All catechumens make a profession of faith at the Easter Vigil:

Priest: N., do you believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth?
Candidate: I do.
Priest: Do you believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was born of the Virgin Mary,
was crucified, died, and was buried,
rose from the dead,
and is now seated at the right hand of the Father?
Candidate: I do.
Priest: Do you believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting?
Candidate: I do.

That’s it.
A person is not required to have a deep devotion to the Blessed Mother to be Catholic, but in reality, it is difficult to believe in Christ without accepting who his mother is.

 

[Kliska]

All catechumens make a profession of faith at the Easter Vigil:

But as I understand it, that’s not enough be in right standing. You can assent to a teaching, and take it on faith, but it is still required, on some level, to accept what is contained in the CCC, hence RCIA.

 

[Dalphon]

Well, what do you think is the Gospel message, in a straighforward way, should it be? And according to whose interpretation?

I think the straightforward gospel is very simple to understand. Just read it and it speaks for itself. You don’t need an interpretation.

Here is Peter preaching to the gentiles.

Acts 10:34 Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him. 36 “The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)— 37 you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed. 38 “You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 “We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross. 40 “God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 “And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. 43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Question: Do you accept/agree that Mary as the Mother of God, also called the Theotokos?

Mary is definitely the mother of Jesus, the son of God. The Mother of God is another confusing term which the Church started. Is Mary the mother of God the Father? The Father is infinite, without a beginning that we can comprehend. Mary was born at a specific time and place. Jesus existed with the Father before his incarnation. So I would answer yes. Mary is the Mother of God the Son but how could Mary be the mother of God the Father?