Where were the Protestants before the 1500's?

[Dalphon]

But why did you pick that verse, and not any of the other dozens?

That’s what Paul told the jailer who was about to commit suicide. After Paul stopped the man from harming himself he took the guy home and had time to baptize the man.

28 But Paul cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here!” 29 And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, 30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

  31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. 33 And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. 34 And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household.

Why didn’t you say, “Repent and be baptized” or “Eat His Flesh and drink His blood” or “Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord” or…

Because if someone is about to die I can’t get him to a church for the eucharist and I can’t run and get water to baptize him.

So what do you think, I believe in faith alone?

Where does the Bible say that that verse is the one you tell a dying man

“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

If the guy was with his family then I would include "you and your household.” Is that OK?
But maybe his family is already Catholic. It would depend on the situation. If he was Catholic and it was Saturday afternoon and he just came from confession I would dial 911 and wait for an ambulance.

 

[guanophore]

God can do whatever he wants but the Catholic Church always said the Jews can’t be saved. Now they teach differently.

Is that what they told you in Catholic school?

I have never read this. Can you point me to a document?

The CC has always taught that salvation comes by grace, through faith. Jews of the Old covenant are not saved differently than those in the New.

That's not right. They don't accept the trinity and they don't practice baptism. If they attain salvation through Abraham, that's another gospel. More confusion.

No one is saved through Abraham. Everyone is saved through the faith of Abraham, which is accounted to them as righteousness. The Muslims are the sons of Ishmael, and God has made promises to them.

20 As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him and make him fruitful and multiply him exceedingly; he shall be the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. Genesis 17:20–21

8 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him fast with your hand; for I will make him a great nation.”
Genesis 21:18–19

One can only wonder what God has in mind!

The following is what the Catholic Church taught for centuries.

The Athanasian Creed
Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.

If Catholic bishops today are not saying this, can we accuse them of being heretics?

Oh, many accuse Catholics of all sorts of things. If a Catholic abandons the faith, they may be a heretic.

But one must understand such statements in their historical context. At that time, one was either Catholic, or a heretic. They could not possibly have envisioned so many fervent and sincere souls as have today been born into various ecclesial communities rife with heresy, believing that they are holding the Apostolic faith.

Persons cannot be charged with heresy that have never known the Truth.

No questions, just a plea for simplification. What must I do to be saved? Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.

I can certainly appreciate your desire for simplicity. It is true that working out our salvation does require a great deal of discipline, study, and perseverance.

The issue then becomes, what does it mean to “believe in the Lord”? Does it just mean that one prays the sinners prayer, and it is a done deal? Or is there some merit to the teaching that there are some aspects of salvation that are completed, some that are in process, and some that will not be fulfilled until the end of this life?

That angel and the holy spirit were with me from the womb. They know everything about me. If they thought I was rude they would have told me by now. If an angel comes to me in a dream or an awake state I will talk to him.

Yes, acted upon, living faith, even the demons believe and shudder. I don’t believe in once saved always saved.

Oh I am relieved to hear that. But what does “acted upon, living faith” look like? This has been the dispute from the beginning.

The angels and saints take our prayers to God period. There are no conditions attached to it. Pray to God, pray to the angels - whatever. I pray to God.

Thank you.

 

[guanophore]

Yeah, that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying the Catholic faith has become too complicated.

From our point of view, so much of the Apostolic faith was jettisoned at the Reformation that the result is a truncated gospel.

Have you ever read “The Glories of Mary?” St. Alphonsus Liguori was a doctor of the Church.

Yes, but Catholics are not obligated to believe and practice as he did. There are some Catholics who have exceedingly great Marian devotion, but this is not required. Since you are so vexed by it, why not let it go?

I know. They say there is no salvation outside the catholic church and then they say Jews, Protestants and Muslims can be saved.

Perhaps you are a very black and white thinker, and are unable to exercise the both/and kind of thinking that is contained in the Apostolic faith?

Can we agree that God desires all to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the Truth?

Can we agree that there is no salvation outside of Christ?

Can we agree that Christ has only One Body, the Church, and that all who are connected to HIm as Head are members of His One Body, the Church?

We have already agreed that God can save whoever He wants, however He likes.

To reach the Eternal Father, we must go to Jesus, our Mediator of Redemption . . .

There may be some people who reach the Eternal Father, not realizing they have gone through Christ. Just as Nathaniel did not know that Jesus was God, when he was talking to God under the fig tree.

To go to Jesus, we must go to Mary: she is our Mediatrix of Intercession.

No, Dalphon. You are not required to practice this Marian devotion. It will not harm your faith if you do, ,but it is not a dogma of the faith. Those who cannot grasp the role of Mary in salvation history do miss out on an important aspect of the Gospel. But people are saved all the time with the readers’ digest version.

St. Louis Marie de Montfort

By the will of God nothing is conferred upon us except by means of Mary; and just as no one is able to approach the Most High Father except through His Son, so too no one approaches Christ but through Mary His Mother.
St. Maximilian Mary Kolbe

We cannot approach Jesus but through Mary; we can see Jesus and speak to Him only by means of her.
St. Louis Marie de Montfort

No one ever finds Christ but with and through Mary. Whoever seeks Christ apart from Mary seeks Him in vain.
St. Bonaventure

These are private devotions and revelations, Dalphon. They are specially for those to whom they are given. If you are able to appreciate them, more power to you, but you are not required.

If they vex you, it would be better for you to move on and focus on other matters. Everyone has different prayers of devotion and you need not share them.

 

[pablope]

They’re not traditions. They’re my own opinions.

And when would you know your opinions are true or false?
And besides, opinions are based on something…and in your case on the issue of angels…on the traditions of men or of the tradition of your own making?

 

[guanophore]

Not at all. They were very good representatives of the Catholic faith but they were not straightforward with the gospel message.

Have you considered that your focus on their Marian devotions has given you a lopsided perception of their gospel message? This always happens when things are taken out of context.

I’m not qualified to make that decision. All I’m saying is if you tell people they must accept Mary to be saved you are revising the original gospel message.

Not at all. Mary has been part of the Gospel message since Genesis. She has never been separated from Jesus. When the Wise Men came to worship Him as she held Him in her arms, they bowed down to the infant king. She changed his diapers, cleaned his scrape, became HIs very first disciple and followed Him to his gruesome death. She has never been separated from the Gospel. Of course anyone who knows anything about the life of Jesus will “accept Mary”.

That being said, no one is required to practice the Marian devotions that seem to bother you so much.

I can readily call Mary Theotokos, and confess that Jesus honored her, and confess that she was and is highly favored, and blessed amongst women, that she was a virgin, that Jesus’ Father was and is God Himself. I can confess about Jesus that He is God, that He fulfilled all that was asked of Him under the law including honoring Mary. But that is now not enough to warrant entrance to the RCC.

This is very curious, you know I have been involved in RCIA for years and have never heard any other profession of faith other than the creed used, and have never seen anyone asked to confess anything about Mary (other than what is in the creed). One has to wonder what sort of RCIA you must be experiencing!

 

[PRmerger]

So what do you think, I believe in faith alone?

So here’s the thing, Dalphon…I have no idea what you believe.

You profess that you are a Bible-believing Christian, I presume.

And this tells me…almost nothing.

I don’t know whether you believe in…

faith alone
baptism as an adult
baptism is an ordinance
baptism must be done by immersion
altar calls
Sabbath as the day of worship
the Eucharist as the Real Presence
divorce and re-marriage is a sin
female pastors are copacetic
abortion is murder
drinking alcohol is forbidden

etc etc etc

That’s the rotten fruit of the Protestant Reformation. There are now tens of thousands of different ways to say, “I am a Bible Believing Christian and this is what I believe.”

Now, if you want to know what I believe, all you have to do is look here:

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[Dalphon]

So here’s the thing, Dalphon…I have no idea what you believe.

You profess that you are a Bible-believing Christian, I presume.

And this tells me…almost nothing.

Thanks for taking such an interest in me but you don’t have to worry about what I believe in. We’re not getting serious at this point in our relationship.

That’s the rotten fruit of the Protestant Reformation. There are now tens of thousands of different ways to say, “I am a Bible Believing Christian and this is what I believe.”

And yet they are still considered members of the body of Christ.

Now, if you want to know what I believe, all you have to do is look here:

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

It’s wonderful that you know the whole catechism but the majority of Catholics and I would have to include those from the time of Christ up to now, didn’t know all that is in today’s catholic catechism. Do you know what everyone in your own parish believes? I think if you questioned everyone individually you would find they are not all united on abortion, homosexuality, birth control, confession and premarital sex.

 

[Dalphon]

God can do whatever he wants but the Catholic Church always said the Jews can’t be saved. Now they teach differently.

Is that what they told you in Catholic school?

I have never read this. Can you point me to a document?

The CC has always taught that salvation comes by grace, through faith. Jews of the Old covenant are not saved differently than those in the New.

The Baltimore Catechism of 1891.
pcpbooks.net/docs/baltimore_catechism.pdf
Q. 1177. What excuse do some give for neglecting to seek and embrace the true religion?
A. Some give as an excuse for neglecting to seek and embrace the true religion that we should
live in the religion in which we were born, and that one religion is as good as another if we
believe we are serving God.
Q. 1178. How do we show that such an excuse is false and absurd?
A. We show that such an excuse is false and absurd because:
(1) It is false and absurd to say that we should remain in error after we have discovered it;
(2) Because if one religion is as good as another, Our Lord would not have abolished the
Jewish religion, nor the apostles have preached against heresy.

ewtn.com/library/councils/florence.htm#4
ECUMENICAL COUNCIL OF FLORENCE (1438-1445)
It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives;

No one is saved through Abraham. Everyone is saved through the faith of Abraham, which is accounted to them as righteousness. The Muslims are the sons of Ishmael, and God has made promises to them.

You’re concerned about the teachings of Martin Luther but the followers of Mohammed can be saved?

Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (# 2), Jan. 6, 1928:
“… that false opinion which considers all religions to be more or less good and
praiseworthy, … Not only are those who hold this opinion in error and deceived, but
also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it

 

[PRmerger]

Thanks for taking such an interest in me but you don’t have to worry about what I believe in.

http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/facepalm/grand/disappointed_gif_44556.gif

I was merely answering your question.

Do you remember asking this:

So what do you think, I believe in faith alone?

I am simply responding with: how am I supposed to know what a Bible-Believing Christian believes? There’s tens of thousands of differing beliefs.

 

[Nanotwerp]

Thanks for taking such an interest in me but you don’t have to worry about what I believe in. We’re not getting serious at this point in our relationship.

And yet they are still considered members of the body of Christ.

It’s wonderful that you know the whole catechism but the majority of Catholics and I would have to include those from the time of Christ up to now, didn’t know all that is in today’s catholic catechism. Do you know what everyone in your own parish believes? I think if you questioned everyone individually you would find they are not all united on abortion, homosexuality, birth control, confession and premarital sex.

Do you think it is the Church’s ‘fault’ that there are some with different beliefs? The fact is that the Church is firm on being against homosexual acts, birth control, and premarital sex since the beginning.

Anyway, why do you, united with Westboro, hate gay people?

 

[Porknpie]

No, literally you don’t (we all confess a lot of things). And that’s not even the issue; it’s if there is only one name under Heaven by which we must be saved paired with the teaching that one has to be a member of the RCC for salvation.

Kliska,

I believe you have been on CAF long enough that the above is not true. You know it not to be the teaching of the Catholic Church yet you repeat it.

Why?

 

[PRmerger]

And yet they are still considered members of the body of Christ.

This is a non-sequitur, Dalphon. No one has posited that they are not.

The point of the discussion we were having was this:

-I have no idea what you believe, even though you are a Bible-Believing Christian

-This is because going by the Bible Alone is as revealing or explanatory as…well, it reveals or explains almost…NOTHING.

-Which means that the Bible Alone as the sure norm for the faith can’t actually be a norm or a pillar for truth. If it were, all Bible Alone Christians would have at least some semblance of a coherent doctrine. When someone would say “I am a Bible Believing Christian” I could conclude, “Ah. You believe, A, B, C and D!” and that Bible Believing Christian would respond, “Yep.”

 

[PRmerger]

It’s wonderful that you know the whole catechism but the majority of Catholics and I would have to include those from the time of Christ up to now, didn’t know all that is in today’s catholic catechism. Do you know what everyone in your own parish believes? I think if you questioned everyone individually you would find they are not all united on abortion, homosexuality, birth control, confession and premarital sex.

You are injecting your Protestant reality into Catholicism, Dalphon.

That there are numerous people in my Church who have divorced themselves from the faith given, once for all, to the Apostles is irrelevant.

That having individual, divergent beliefs after reading the Bible is accepted and encouraged in your churches ought not be confused with what is accepted and encouraged in Catholicism.

If there is a Catholic who says, “I believe abortion is moral!” all you have to do is say, “But that is not the teaching of your Church. And the CC does not encourage you to divorce yourself from what Christ has proclaimed.”

If there is a Bible Believing Christian who says, “I believe that God hates homosexuals”, all you can do, if you are being consistent with your paradigm, is say, “Well, I guess that’s your right. Since you prayed and read the Bible and claim guidance by the Holy Spirit.”

 

[Kliska]

One last attempt…

One of the Marian dogmas is that Mary is the Mother of God.

Is it necessary to profess this belief, in your opinion?

Salvationally speaking, the necessity is about Jesus, not about Mary. It is necessary to acknowledge points about Christ, not about His mother. That is even the contention of the RCC, and on that we agree. What we don’t agree about it whether having to faithfully and fully believe something about Mary violates scripture when it comes to saving faith. Mary was indeed given the title “Theotokos” which means God-bearer. I can profess and fully believe Jesus is God, and is also human, etc… etc… without ever giving Mary that title and forcing others to profess it. Is the title accurate? Yes. Again, that is not the point. I don’t even have trouble with the RCC’s teaching on Mary so much as making it full and formal dogma that one has to fully and faithfully believe before entrance to the church.

I know one “protestant’s” opinion isn’t worth much, and I’m not trying to change someone’s mind, but it is about hurdles that have accumulated over time and having an issue with the idea that I can stand shoulder to shoulder with you and believe all the same things about God; the Father, Son, and Spirit and that still is not counted as being good enough for what I must believe.

This is very curious, you know I have been involved in RCIA for years and have never heard any other profession of faith other than the creed used, and have never seen anyone asked to confess anything about Mary (other than what is in the creed). One has to wonder what sort of RCIA you must be experiencing!

I’m not in RCIA, but I have studied enough and talked to enough people to know that the CCC contains the info that one needs to fully and faithfully believe in order to convert. A person can go bit by bit and believe it all, or a person can assent to the whole authority of the church and accept the CCC wholesale because of that authority, which is where many protestant converts to the RCC wind up.

For a protestant it isn’t about being stubborn on some of these issues, rather, we believe and profess certain things the way we do out of respect for our Lord, God, and Saviour, not our of contention with someone or something else, or to downgrade or insult someone or something else. To have understanding from the other side on that point would go a long way in ecumenism I believe. And, I do think progress is being made in that direction.

 

[clem456]

Salvationally speaking, the necessity is about Jesus, not about Mary. It is necessary to acknowledge points about Christ, not about His mother.

Maybe we could stop dancing for just a second and just talk about a fundamental question that is being dodged, in regards to Christ (since we are on a Catholic forum, Christ is the whole focus of all this).

As a fellow Christian, do you believe in the Incarnation (God became human flesh) of Christ, or do you not?

As a fellow Christian, do you believe that Christ was conceived in the womb of a woman by the Holy Spirit, or do you not? (this is a big one, please think about the implications of this fundamental Christian truth and this relationship: Holy Spirit-human woman.

Does this woman really exist, or is she a fairy tale?

If you don’t believe Christ was born of the union of the Holy Spirit and a woman, what is your proposal for the Incarnation? How did it happen?

 

[PRmerger]

I can profess and fully believe Jesus is God, and is also human, etc… etc… without ever giving Mary that title and forcing others to profess it. Is the title accurate? Yes.

Well, that’s a little peculiar.

It’s like saying:

I can profess that female mammals can produce milk.
And I can profess that cows produce milk.
But I am not willing to profess that cows are mammals.

 

[guanophore]

But as I understand it, that’s not enough be in right standing. You can assent to a teaching, and take it on faith, but it is still required, on some level, to accept what is contained in the CCC, hence RCIA.

It is enough.

All that is required is that you assent to the Teachings, and take it on faith. There are plenty of baptized Catholics (as I am sure you know) that do not understand or accept the Teachings of the Church, especially on birth control and divorce. To be in right standing, one only has to assent and obey. We pray that the HS will enlighten us and help us to understand what we do not, and to conform us to the One Faith. We have an obligation to study and inform our faith, but being able to grasp or accept everything is really too much for most people, especially new converts, who tend to have the most difficulty with the Marian doctrines.

What is required is an attitude of docility, of teachability:

2 Like newborn babes, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation; 3 for you have tasted the kindness of the Lord.1 Peter 2:2–4\

 

[Kliska]

Maybe we could stop dancing for just a second and just talk about a fundamental question that is being dodged, in regards to Christ (since we are on a Catholic forum, Christ is the whole focus of all this).

As a fellow Christian, do you believe in the Incarnation (God became human flesh) of Christ, or do you not?

As a fellow Christian, do you believe that Christ was conceived in the womb of a woman by the Holy Spirit, or do you not? (this is a big one, please think about the implications of this fundamental Christian truth and this relationship: Holy Spirit-human woman.

Does this woman really exist, or is she a fairy tale?

If you don’t believe Christ was born of the union of the Holy Spirit and a woman, what is your proposal for the Incarnation? How did it happen?

I’m not “dancing” with anything, but apparently I am failing in even adding to the conversation in a coherent manner. You are repeating and hitting on all the points I’ve been saying; you and I agree on who Jesus is completely. We even agree that Mary is Theotokos. There’s no debate between me and the RCC on that. That has nothing to do with sharing my perspective. The focus I’m sharing isn’t on Mary and who or what she is, the question is, what is a requirement to join the RCC which is, by Catholic teaching, joined to the question of salvation and what protestant brothers and sister “must” fully and faithfully believe in order to be in right standing with the RCC if they wish to join, and who they have to believe those things about. I’m not playing some type of game, I’ve offering information; if we are to not put stumbling-blocks in our brothers’ and sisters’ way, part of that is recognizing said stumbling-blocks and discussing them… but perhaps that is best left to the ecumenical councils and meetings.

 

[PRmerger]

What is required is an attitude of docility, of teachability:

Indeed.

Creating a god that conforms to one’s own sensibilities is the essence of creating a god in one’s own image.

“God wouldn’t [fill in the blank with some idea which tickles my ears]” = bad.

“God said [fill in the blank with some idea that I’d prefer He hadn’t said]. Therefore I now profess that” = good.

 

[clem456]

It is enough.

All that is required is that you assent to the Teachings, and take it on faith. There are plenty of baptized Catholics (as I am sure you know) that do not understand or accept the Teachings of the Church, especially on birth control and divorce. To be in right standing, one only has to assent and obey. We pray that the HS will enlighten us and help us to understand what we do not, and to conform us to the One Faith. We have an obligation to study and inform our faith, but being able to grasp or accept everything is really too much for most people, especially new converts, who tend to have the most difficulty with the Marian doctrines.

What is required is an attitude of docility, of teachability:

2 Like newborn babes, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation; 3 for you have tasted the kindness of the Lord.1 Peter 2:2–4\

Yes.
It seems there is a misconception about what it means to “have” faith.

Faith is not a possession, and not -merely- a program of learning with a test at the end. Becoming Catholic through RCIA is a process, and that journey is ongoing for everyone including the Pope. The end result is not an omniscient faith that can answer all questions. The purpose of RCIA is to make a commitment, to say “I do… I will… I give my trust… I assent… I give myself to Christ with his community of believers”. To become Catholic is to say:

Behold the (servant) of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word.

Nothing in that statement implies full doctrinal knowledge, but is she known in the fullest sense? Yes, she is known, by the Holy Spirit, to the degree that she conceives the Son of God.
Her grace, her “knowledge”, always point to Christ.