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Eric_Hilbert
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The topic, not each other
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benhur
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David must have been wrong when he penned, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." but there is hope atheists for he also wrote, “Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.”Also, benhur, what answer will you give to the atheist who says, “How can you be a follower of Christianity, which proclaims that even little babies have sinned? For your Bible says that ALL have sinned, right?”
You will have to answer, sadly, “Yes, my interpretation of Scripture does believe that ALL have sinned means NO EXCEPTIONS. And that means that this little guy has sinned, according to my church:”
pickcute.com
No wonder the atheist will not be amenable to exploring Christianity.
Psalm 51…and besides the provided cleansing is this : “My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
*How precious are your thoughts about me, O God. *They cannot be numbered!I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.” Psalm 139…oops sorry , just saw moderators warning back to topic
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Randy_Carson
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No, David was correct. We are sinful from the time of our conception.
Which is why Mary was conceived immaculately in her mother’s womb…so that she would not know sin and be a fit dwelling for the incarnation.
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PRmerger
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While it is an emotional reason to leave, it is not a logical reason. Nor is it a Scriptural reason.
Jesus tells us to obey our leaders. He makes reference to their being corrupt but to obey them anyway (Matthew 23:1-3).
So while it may feel good to judge the leaders of the Catholic Church and leave it, you are countermanding Christ’s command to obey them.
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benhur
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Indeed it is and was a burden to think there was any particular teaching error in CC before 1500. There were voices speaking to some issues that was made quite burdensome to the speaker. The burden is upon each individual to discern not just any wrong but the right also. Don’t think Luther was the first one to do this, to be burdened.
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PRmerger
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All HAVE sinned, ben. No exception.
So tell me what sin this little cutie pie could do?
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PRmerger
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And this still leaves you with the problem of NO EXCEPTIONS = Jesus sinned.
That’s a pretty precarious position for a Christian to hold, ben.
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benhur
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" I think he is not talking of all the people** but from all the region**" was my post. Yes, all the region. All holds its literalness
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PRmerger
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Well, that would still leave you in a predicament, Dalphon.
It wouldn’t be Bible Alone on Monday either.
The conclusion you have to make, if you are being honest, is that your pastor does not conform to the Bible Alone as he/she runs and maintains his/her church.
And, I propose that this is actually a more REASONABLE reason to leave a church than because you find sinful people in it: They don’t really believe what they are preaching. The preach Bible Alone but don’t really embrace Bible Alone.
That would be a far better reason to leave a church, don’t you think?
What if the Catholic Church taught that Jesus is the Son of God but didn’t actually believe that He was?
Wouldn’t that be more justified to say, “I can’t be a member of a Church that doesn’t actually believe what it preaches”?
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benhur
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Actually death is a consequence of sin and Mary dies and the Son of Man aged normally(which would be on course for an eventual old age death). Actually the verse is all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, so it is wrong to say God is His own exception. Everyone but God is short of His glory. Last I heard Jesus is…
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Randy_Carson
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Randy_Carson
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I re-read the passage, and I agree with you. It is conceivable that people from “all the region” went out to see John, and this would not require every man, woman and child. One person from each area would suffice.
This verse, however, is the nail in your argument:
Matthew 2:3
3 When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him.
Are you going to argue that every man, woman and child in Jerusalem was disturbed? It’s unlikely that everyone had even heard of the baby’s birth.
You are left with an untenable position. For “all” to have sinned without exception:
- Jesus sinned.
- Newborns who die in their cradles sinned.
- Mentally retarded individuals sinned.
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PRmerger
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“Death is a consequence of sin?” says the Muslim.
Muslim continues, “It gets curiouser and curiouser, these Christians who claim all have sinned yet Jesus didn’t.”
Muslim then asks you, “So how is it that you say that your Jesus…died. Wouldn’t that mean it was a consequence of the fact that he sinned?”
He continues, “Maybe your Jesus didn’t really die, benhur. He just swooned. Because only sinners die.”
Now you’re in an even deeper predicament, “Christian evangelist to the Muslims benhur”
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Randy_Carson
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Death is a consequence of sin.
Jesus died.
Therefore, Jesus sinned.
Gotcha.
Oh, and yes, Jesus was God, but He was also fully man. He aged, ate, got tired, and knew sorrow and pain. He also died.
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guanophore
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Do you think this has changed? This is the reason that the Church accepts valid baptisms administered in any other ecclesial community. Modern Protestants can’t be charged with the sin of separation, since they have grown up apart from the unity of the One Body. And the last phrase is referring to excommunication.
Nothing here has changed either. Catholics are expected to accept, recognize, and obey the authorities appointed by Christ. It is not a democracy, it is a theocracy.
Anyone who is saved is saved only through Jesus, since there is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved. The difference is that Catholics believe that some may be saved by Christ and not recog
nize that it is He who has done it (till they get there).Perhaps you, like me, could not hear this message when you were growing up Catholic? I had to leave the Church before my ears got unstopped. A couple decades later, when I finally found my way back, I realized the message was there all the time…I just was not able to hear it.
This has not changed, Dalphon. Everyone, by the time they get to heaven, will have Catholic faith. They may not have realized it during this life, and they may not be a visible member of the earthly CC, but there is only One Body, and all who are saved are members of it.
I think what you are seeing is that our understanding of the TEachings has changed over time. But the Apostles taught that Christ has One Body, the Church. No one is saved outside of it.
This has not changed, either. What has changed is that we understand depression and other mental illnesses better, so we realize that not all those who commit suicide have committed the mortal sin. A mortal sin has conditions, and those conditions have not changed.
This has not changed either, Dalphon. This is a discipline of the Church, and Catholics are bound to obey the leaders Jesus has appointed for us. What has changed is how the fast is implemented. It is still considered a mortal sin to disobey.
How has this changed? We still do not know what God does with unbaptized children. The Church no longer teaches limbo as a way to conceptualize it, but since God has made it clear that all who are born into the human race are under a death sentence, and that baptism saves…we entrust their souls to a faithful creator.
It does not seem like you have been frequenting Catholic environments, since these readings are part of the liturgy. Apparently you have not encountered the Charismatic Renewal either, or you would never make such a false statement.
Well, there have been Catholics that have made mistakes, and it is clear you have lost a lot of trust over it.
This is very good news, because it means if you can put the principles above personalities, you will be able to find your way back to the fullness of the faith. It is hard to forgive people who have done wrong to us, but we cannot allow our resentments to keep us away from Christ, and the unity He desires for us. Perhaps there is a part of your heart that knows this, which is why you are on CAF?
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PRmerger
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Haha, Randy! We were thinking on the same plane! Scary!Death is a consequence of sin.
Jesus died.
Therefore, Jesus sinned.
Gotcha.
Oh, and yes, Jesus was God, but He was also fully man. He aged, ate, got tired, and knew sorrow and pain. He also died.
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PRmerger
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No, benhur. Babies have no sin.
You seem to be operating from a deficient understanding of Original Sin, which is not actually sin at all, but a deprivation of our original state of perfection. We lack the sanctifying grace which was originally intended to be our inheritance.
Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle. CCC 405
And you are operating from a deficient understanding of the dogma of the IC as well.
It is not actual sin that was “removed” from Mary, but the stain of Original Sin.
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guanophore
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I agree with you that it is not within the power of man to change what God has established. Christians chose to keep the Lord’s day. If you prefer, we don’t need to go into that “routine”. SUffice to say that Jesus is our Sabbath rest, and He is the fulfillment of the Sabbath. We are called to enter into His rest.
I am finding my self confused as to why you think anything has changed? When a person is not in full possession of his faculties through addiction or mental illness, they cannot “willfully and knowingly” make such decisions. Their will is not free, as it must be to commit a mortal sin. Have you ever had any experience with a mentally ill person?
Indeed, it would be better if more Catholics understood and lived the Spirit filled life.
It would be pretty silly, however, to 'condemn" any thing in Scripture. Nevertheless, there are some silly Catholics, just as there are silly Protestants who condemn the gifts of the Spirit also. The baptists who taught me how to read Scripture told me that thee gifts were no longer active since the bible was written.
Perhaps when you come home, you can help renew the Church by helping Catholics learn how to unwrap and put their gifts to work?
I would say it applies even MORE to leaders. But the evildoing of a leader does not set aside the authority that God has appointed.
Perhaps you are wounded because of wrongdoing by a leader, and you are still angry because there was no justice. The wrongdoer was not put away as should have been done.
This nonsense, Dalphon. Jesus was already preaching, healing, and exercising divine authority. One of the reasons the Jewish authorities resented him was because everyone was “going over to Him”. Thousands of Jews accepted Him as messiah.
No, Jesus was teaching a principle, and at the end of His ministry, He transferred the Seat of Moses to His Apostles. He knew they were not going to be perfect, either.
And history speaks for itself on that regard, does it not? But we see the Church as above and beyond any person who is attached to her. Just as no man can change the Sabbath of God, no man has the power to sully His Holy Bride.
LOL, I am not sure this is true, Dalphon, but I can tell you for sure, I am happy to be “stuck” with any and all of the popes we have had in the last century.
I agree. Catholics sit under our Head, who is Christ, and the authority He appointed. If a leader falls under corruption, we do not need to go under with them.
So do you think the Holy Spirit should have stuck down the person who hurt you? If He didn’t, and you decide to stay put and pray for him, does that mean you are somehow participating in the sin?
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clem456
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Might be the understatement of the last 5 centuries…
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Dalphon
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No one ever hurt me in the Catholic religion. I know everyone here is trying to help me but I really don’t get what you’re all saying and you don’t get what I’m saying so I have to conclude that there is a certain way of thinking in understanding the Catholic faith that I don’t have. I think that is the cause of schisms also. Not everyone thinks and processes information the same way. Therefore I go to a church that makes sense to me. If you’re saying I must come back to the Catholic Church because I was baptized there, then I will have to come back as one of those Catholics whose attitude is “Well I don’t know, that’s what they say” and “Well I was born in this religion. That’s all I know.” Sort of like a prearranged marriage; I don’t really love my wife but it’s the tradition we follow.
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