Where will I go when I die?

[Godmachine]

My mother is a devout Catholic. I am a devout agnostic. We are both opinionated, outspoken and stubborn (I get it from her). As you can imagine, we sometimes have some pretty spirited (pun intended) discussions. A frequent topic of debate between us is where I will go when I die. She already knows where she is going to go but of course she worries about me.

I think I understand my mother’s desire for her family to be there with her for all eternity in Heaven. To me it’s a touching sentiment. But the fact is I have no desire whatsoever to spend eternity in the heaven my mother believes actually exists. She would be perfectly happy to spend eternity in church with Jesus and Mary and the saints. I would not. She says Heaven will be like a huge banquet where we will be reunited with all of our dearly departed loved ones. She says there will be no sorrow or pain or sin, only joy and happiness forever and ever. “Doesn’t that sound nice?” she asks me.

No, I answer. If that is what Heaven is really like, then I do not want to go there. I would much rather simply cease to exist.

Every time we have this discussion it is as if we are having it for the first time. She is shocked, offended and hurt that I do not want to spend eternity in her heaven. I don’t know why. I would not be offended if she did not wish to spend eternity in my concept of “paradise”. In fact I would not expect her to want to spend any time at all in my heaven. Of course she brushes off this argument because it is HER heaven that really exists, not mine.

When I die I want to cease to exist. That is what I really want to happen. If a god created me and if that god is a loving god, then “he” will allow me the option to cease to exist when I die.

 

[A_G]

Heaven is so wonderful, so amazing, and so beautiful that our minds cannot even begin to understand how much. Nothing can be as beautiful as Heaven. The last thing you want to do is reject it.

 

[funion987]

I think you might be hesitant to fully embrace an eternity in heaven because there is no way in this world to actually understand the vastness of its bliss. If you were to just have the things that are nice, like sunny skies, white clouds, and green pastures for eternity, then it would be boring after a while. Heaven cannot be boring.

In this world, there is always a desire for something more fulfilling. Now, our faith gives us a lot, and we can find peace on this earth though our current relationship with Christ, but nothing on this earth can compare to the unity with Him that we may experience in the next life.

 

[marty1818]

When I die I want to cease to exist. That is what I really want to happen. If a god created me and if that god is a loving god, then “he” will allow me the option to cease to exist when I die.

If God created you and is a loving God then he gave you free will. He gives us free will so that we could choose to reciprocate His love. You cannot force someone to love you. So you have two options: love God or reject Him. Whatever your choice is God will respect it. He will not force you to spend all eternity with Him in heaven if you don’t want to.

 

[Godmachine]

I think you might be hesitant to fully embrace an eternity in heaven because there is no way in this world to actually understand the vastness of its bliss.

Actually that bliss is part of the reason for my hesitation

If you were to just have the things that are nice, like sunny skies, white clouds, and green pastures for eternity, then it would be boring after a while. Heaven cannot be boring.

If Heaven cannot be boring, it cannot be free of pain or sorrow or sin.

In this world, there is always a desire for something more fulfilling. Now, our faith gives us a lot, and we can find peace on this earth though our current relationship with Christ, but nothing on this earth can compare to the unity with Him that we may experience in the next life.

Sorry but that sounds boring to me. Our desire/search for something more fulfilling is part of what makes this life worth living. If all of those desires were fulfilled, what would be the point?

 

[Godmachine]

If God created you and is a loving God then he gave you free will. He gives us free will so that we could choose to reciprocate His love. You cannot force someone to love you. So you have two options: love God or reject Him. Whatever your choice is God will respect it. He will not force you to spend all eternity with Him in heaven if you don’t want to.

So is nonexistence an option or must I choose between heaven or hell?

 

[MartyrForJesus]

So is nonexistence an option or must I choose between heaven or hell?

Think of it like this:

You are an eternal being.

God loves you. If you love him back, God lets you live with him for Eternity, which is greater than any human being can imagine.

If you do not love Him back, God respects your decision and lets you stay away from him for Eternity. However, since God is the source of Love and true happiness, being away from God there exists no love, and no happiness. It is torture because of this.

All good comes from God, and if you reject God, you reject all good.

 

[Philotheatoo]

As stated earlier, you were given a great gift of free will. You will decide your destiny. No, it is not an option to simply cease to exist.

Always, always, always remember to be careful what you ask for, as you just might get it.

Is it possible you are not willing to come around because it is your mother who is offering you a different view? My opinion of heaven is returning to God. If I am reunited with my loved ones, that is wonderful but, it is not what I long for. I simply long to see God. To be with Jesus. To talk to Abraham and Moses.

 

[Godmachine]

As stated earlier, you were given a great gift of free will. You will decide your destiny. No, it is not an option to simply cease to exist.

If all I have to choose from are two undesirable options, if nonexistence is not an option, then god cannot be loving. If I believed this I would have no choice but to hate God and curse the day I was born. Perhaps it is best that I do not believe it.

Always, always, always remember to be careful what you ask for, as you just might get it.

Oh yes, I agree completely.

Is it possible you are not willing to come around because it is your mother who is offering you a different view? My opinion of heaven is returning to God. If I am reunited with my loved ones, that is wonderful but, it is not what I long for. I simply long to see God. To be with Jesus. To talk to Abraham and Moses.

I love my mother very much. She has always been the most important woman in my life. The view she is offering is the view I grew up with. It is the view I have now that is different.

 

[MorningSong51]

I’m so glad that you brought this subject up and the reasons being is because I get the idea that some think that the soul can return back to the present day - to earth. The thought of our relatives or family members, who can view everything that we do or even that the soul (someone deceased) can be entangled with the living, is the soul then conscious after death? I’ve heard differently…

Once the soul leaves the body, and from what I understood, it’s not up to us to choose if we want our own soul to exist or non exist - our souls are subject to judgment. Scripture tell us in Ecclesiastes 12:7 “and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.”

There is another passage “35** But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come** (afterlife??) and in the resurrection from the dead (revelations) will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.” Even if we could go farther with this, “he is the God of the living, not the dead”

So are there two distinctions - those that are worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead - are there two judgments, for the soul? The Apostle Paul, tell us that the soul is eternal - and from what I (also) understood is that the soul can be dead (meaning that sin can remain on the soul, after death- and also held accountable?) or the soul can rise to life everlasting - the souls of the one’s who enter God’s rest, alive and living.

Three Worlds or Two?

Wouldn’t that explain John’s scriptural passage on the transfiguration of Moses and Elijah. Even from scripture Moses and Elijah will return back for the final judgment. However, the people will not recognize them - the body (as the apostle saw) and the soul (in heaven) must have been event…

Comparatively: The apostle Paul talks about a third heaven as being divided into three:

(1) The aerial, including the clouds and the atmosphere, the heavens above us, until we come to the stars. (Our present reality (Olam Hazeh - Our present world is the scene of a daily struggle between good and evil.)

(2) the starry heavens, the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars appear to be situated. (to determine seasons and times - see Psalm 19)

(3) the heavens beyond the stars. That heaven was supposed to be the residence of God, of angels, and of holy spirits. It was this upper heaven, the dwelling-place of God, to which Paul was taken, and whose wonders he was permitted to behold - this region where God dwelt. ( Olam Habah) or Ccelum angeliferum, or ’ the heaven of heavens.

**Ending with this scriptural point: **

“I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.”

So then, it would be impossible for a soul to return back to us to cause the living any grief, that is - any dead person…as to state, "Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies” - no one can resurrect a dead soul!

 

[erine]

The argument that we can’t know bliss without the contrast provided by suffering only applies here on earth, in temporal reality. Here we need opposites to experience them both. Hot cold, happy sad, up down…etc. This is the nature of our spiritual reality here but it will not be the same in heaven. It is a fallacy to apply our spiritual reality here and its concepts to heaven.

Heaven isn’t just a nice dinner or something. Giving it a reasonable amount of consideration, one can’t really come to that conclusion. It is more like constant ecstatic bliss and pure love, without awareness of the passage of time, and ability to do and be anything good and desirable without limits or frustrations. Total love of God and neighbor. A totally different plane of existence that is not subject to the rules of life here.

 

[Julia_Mae]

No, I answer. If that is what Heaven is really like, then I do not want to go there. I would much rather simply cease to exist…

I believe that’s because you think you will be yourself only in this place foreign to you and you’ll be bored out of your skull.

First: no skull.

Second: no Time.

Third: perfect Joy… for you.

Your mom’s idea of Heaven is as close as she can come to imagining what cannot be conceived of in our limited state. Just like yours.

I was once graced during contemplation with a moment of Heaven. I cannot possibly convey it. But you really do want that. I hope you figure this out.

 

[Della]

God proved his love for you by creating you a sentient, immortal being. What your mother really ought to be longing for is union with God, which is not at all like forever eating a Thanksgiving dinner with your relatives. It is to be united with the Creator who made everything that exists, both visible and invisible. The God who created the intricate nervous system of living bodies that can sense other life and experience what it means to be alive. That God is not going to rob anyone of having sensory experiences, rather they will be elevated to such a degree that we will be able to see the atoms that make up the physical world all the while passing between them, as Jesus did when he entered through a locked door. What we will be and experience we can surmise from what the risen Christ is like because we will be like him, the Second Adam who recreates mankind into what we were ultimately supposed to be. We aren’t going to be sitting around singing and playing harps all day. I think God has much more in store for us than that. If it were not true he would simply do as you request and annihilate us all. But the resurrection of the body tells us that our physical beings will be even more in tune with everything around us. It will be an eternity of endless wonder and discovery not a staid meeting of old friends or even of loved ones. It’s why married people will not be married to each other, but love each other more intensely because the love between us will be pure, unselfish, truly seeing each other for what we are and delighting in one another. I think your mother senses these things but cannot express them to you.

 

[Brendan_McCabe]

So is nonexistence an option or must I choose between heaven or hell?

Its not your choice.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

If all I have to choose from are two undesirable options, if nonexistence is not an option, then god cannot be loving. If I believed this I would have no choice but to hate God and curse the day I was born. Perhaps it is best that I do not believe it.

I don’t think this is intended to go anywhere so I will be brief. To saythat there are only two “undesirable” options shows your youth and lack of real suffering. One is desirable the other totally undesirable. Eternal suffering or eternal joy, those are the only two options.

As to dissolving into unbeing at death that too is logically impossible assuming that you understand that human beings are composed of two parts (if you will allow the ambiguity of that phrase): a body and a soul. A body is made of “stuff” and that stuff can break down, fall apart, even potentially cease to exist. The soul is completely non material and has no “stuff” from which it is made. It simply exists as a fundamental, albeit non material, reality. Since it has no “stuff”, no matter, it occupies no space and therefore is not subject to breakdown, falling apart, or ceasing to exist. If you understand the truth of the soul then by definition it must be eternal. Which leads to all sorts of questions about where it came from, why it exists, etc. that I don’t think you really want to get into.

I love my mother very much. She has always been the most important woman in my life. The view she is offering is the view I grew up with. It is the view I have now that is different.

There is nothing wrong with an honest disagreement and it would definitely be wrong for you to lie to her and say you believe something you do not. Perhaps you could pick up some theology or philosophy books and better understand why she believes as she believes? I am not sure exactly what you are looking to get out of this site but it can be a tremendous resource for lots of opinions and ideas regarding the topic of heaven and hell, but only if you are willing to contemplate and work to understand what the explanations you are given mean. If you have the attitude I had a few years ago you will most likely brush them off with a brief “I don’t believe that” and carry on your merry way. I just hope you do not have to suffer as I did to learn how to listen and understand what others say, not just let it “go in one ear and out the other.”

FSC

 

[Godmachine]

The argument that we can’t know bliss without the contrast provided by suffering only applies here on earth, in temporal reality. Here we need opposites to experience them both. Hot cold, happy sad, up down…etc. This is the nature of our spiritual reality here but it will not be the same in heaven. It is a fallacy to apply our spiritual reality here and its concepts to heaven.

Then how can anyone here on earth possibly know anything about heaven? It is opposites that give things contrast. Contrast keeps things interesting. If something is not interesting it quickly becomes boring, which supposedly heaven cannot be. If it is a fallacy to apply our earthly spirituality to heaven, then it is a fallacy to even try to conceptualize such a place or even to say it exists at all.

 

[domandcarols]

Heaven is being in the presence of God. Beyond that no one knows what it will be like.

 

[MartyrForJesus]

If all I have to choose from are two undesirable options, if nonexistence is not an option, then god cannot be loving.

And who defines loving as ‘letting them do whatever they want’?

 

[Godmachine]

I don’t think this is intended to go anywhere so I will be brief. To saythat there are only two “undesirable” options shows your youth and lack of real suffering. One is desirable the other totally undesirable. Eternal suffering or eternal joy, those are the only two options.

As it happens I am 46 years old. I have been around the block a time or two. You’re making assumptions here you probably should not be making.

As to dissolving into unbeing at death that too is logically impossible assuming that you understand that human beings are composed of two parts (if you will allow the ambiguity of that phrase): a body and a soul. A body is made of “stuff” and that stuff can break down, fall apart, even potentially cease to exist. The soul is completely non material and has no “stuff” from which it is made. It simply exists as a fundamental, albeit non material, reality. Since it has no “stuff”, no matter, it occupies no space and therefore is not subject to breakdown, falling apart, or ceasing to exist. If you understand the truth of the soul then by definition it must be eternal. Which leads to all sorts of questions about where it came from, why it exists, etc. that I don’t think you really want to get into.

By all means, let’s talk about it.

There is nothing wrong with an honest disagreement and it would definitely be wrong for you to lie to her and say you believe something you do not. Perhaps you could pick up some theology or philosophy books and better understand why she believes as she believes? I am not sure exactly what you are looking to get out of this site but it can be a tremendous resource for lots of opinions and ideas regarding the topic of heaven and hell, but only if you are willing to contemplate and work to understand what the explanations you are given mean. If you have the attitude I had a few years ago you will most likely brush them off with a brief “I don’t believe that” and carry on your merry way. I just hope you do not have to suffer as I did to learn how to listen and understand what others say, not just let it “go in one ear and out the other.”

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I suppose I am looking for honest discussion. Reading between the lines, your response has told me a lot. You appear to be making assumptions that are simply not true. I am not some kid fresh out of high school and I am not unlearned. And believe me, I’ve had my share of suffering.

 

[Crdl2Grv]

When I die I want to cease to exist. That is what I really want to happen. If a god created me and if that god is a loving god, then “he” will allow me the option to cease to exist when I die.

I deny my 18-month-old son options every day. It doesn’t mean I don’t love him. Quite the contrary, in fact. On our walk this morning, he wanted to pick up and eat just about every leaf he came across, no matter how dirty and gross. Because I love him, I did not allow him that option.

Sorry but that sounds boring to me. Our desire/search for something more fulfilling is part of what makes this life worth living.

While that may be true about “this life”, this life is not the subject of your question. The subject of your question is the afterlife.

Regarding the afterlife, you’re assuming that everything - or at least a great many things - in the afterlife work the same way they do in this life. We Catholics don’t make that assumption. So when you say that our conception of the afterlife is boring, you really mean your conception of the afterlife is boring. You’re free to adopt whatever conception of the afterlife you choose. Just don’t confuse it with ours.

If all I have to choose from are two undesirable options, if nonexistence is not an option, then god cannot be loving.

The fact that your desires originate from you do not make them objectively good. Whether you desire them or not has no bearing on the question of whether He who gave you those options is loving and/or good.

If I believed this I would have no choice but to hate God and curse the day I was born.

You’re free to feel however you want about God. But your feelings toward him cannot change His essential nature as a loving God. I do not stop loving my toddler when he screams at me for refusing to let him eat mushy, half-rotten leaves. Similarly, God doesn’t stop loving you when you hate Him.

One final note… um, no offense, but it seems like you have a much bigger problem with your mom than with God.