Where would The Catholic Church be at today without the SSPX?

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michaeldaniels

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Poll is really simple…I know my options aren’t all inclusive, but try to answer to the best of your abilities.

I started this poll because I for one, am grateful for the SSPX and I truly believe that without them, the TLM may have just faded away into obscurity. These people (the society and their clergy) are pillars, and I think history will judge them kinder than their contemporaries. Just an FYI, I am not affiliated with the SSPX in any way…never even been to an SSPX Chapel…just a nostalgic Catholic who loves tradition and appreciates the fact that the SSPX is fighting against the liberal modernists.

I don’t really think that the wide majority of people understand just how serious and dangerous liberalism and modernism is, and the damage it can and will do to our Church. Saint Pius X was very clear on this matter…we should clear up any differences we have with the society, bring them back into the fold 100%…straighten out their canonical status and have them spearhead the assault against the modernists.
 
Disobedience to the magisterium is serious and dangerous, too. Nothing wrong with preferring the traditional Mass and practices of the faith, but there are ways to keep the traditions without disobedience. Unless you live in close proximity to the SSPX, you might not be aware of all the issues. They aren’t all “pillars…” They have the same issues as those of us in good standing with Rome-clergy and laity alike. They may have meant well, but disobedience is not something to hold up for admiration.
 
I don’t think it’s quite fair to say that the EF wouldn’t exist today without the SSPX, though they certainly have worked hard to preserve it. I know they had nothing to do with it being brought to the parish I am blessed to attend. It was the work of a Patristics scholar, a sacred musician, a good diocesan priest, and some really sweet little old ladies. 🙂
 
michaeldaniels said:
Poll is really simple…I know my options aren’t all inclusive, but try to answer to the best of your abilities.
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Which answer best corresponds to:

The people (bishops, priests, lay followers) of the SSPX have been instrumental in preserving the TLM in the Catholic Church; however, they would have been even more influential and effective if they had expressed their love of the TLM through obedience to the Catholic Church instead of through disobedience. In short, the ends of the SSPX were worthy, but the means by which they sought those ends were wrong.
 
They have worked hard to keep it up, but I wouldn’t say the TLM wouldn’t exist today without them, not by a long shot. They are nowhere near us and we have the TLM every week…
 
The Apostolic Letter “Ecclesia Dei” by Pope John Paul II in 1988, which granted the indult for the Tridentine Mass, was written in response to the SSPX. It was this indult that brought the Tridentine Mass to the local parishes, after much work by those who petitioned for it and with much resistance from most bishops and parish priests.😦 Thus, it is accurate to say that without the SSPX, there would not have been the Tridentine Mass in most parishes, especially before the Summorium Pontificum of Pope Benedict XVI.

Having fought for five years to bring the Indult to the Knoxville, TN diocese, I know whereof I speak. Even today, there are only three parishes in this diocese that offer the Mass of All Time.😦 But we did prevail. Pray God things will get better.:gopray2:
 
I actually believe that the SSPX lengthened the wait for the return of the EF. If Lefevre and Co. had stayed I do think that the EF would have been back earlier.🤷
 
I didn’t vote because my option is not there.

The SSPX has been an instrument and only that. Had it not been Archbishop Lefebvre, Our Lord would have used someone else. However, they did keep everything alive. Had it not been for them, only God knows what would have happened. The SSPX remained a thorn in the side of the Church.

So the next time you are at a TLM, thank God for using them to preserve Tradition and the Traditional Mass.
 
Out of every evil there is a greater good. Can we do evil to obtain a greater good? No! Can we be thankful for evil because we get a greater good? No!

Your poll seems to give the impression that you trying to give it that slant. Personally I would be really happy to see the SSPX fully aligned with Rome.
 
Just_Lurking said:
Which answer best corresponds to:

The people (bishops, priests, lay followers) of the SSPX have been instrumental in preserving the TLM in the Catholic Church; however, they would have been even more influential and effective if they had expressed their love of the TLM through obedience to the Catholic Church instead of through disobedience.
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How can you express your love for the TLM if the TLM is abrogated? Alone at home in your own mind? If you are a Priest does this mean shutting up and saying the OF Mass while secretly loving the TLM in your heart?

At the time all of this “disobedience” went down, the practical implication of the word “obedience” to the lay catholic would have meant no TLM available and, for the Priest it would have meant that he could not celebrate it.

That’s just what I’m not understanding.
 
Obviously very hard to say. It certainly would have been far preferable to work within the Church rather than becoming dissidents.

While they certainly worked hard for the preservation of the EF there were other groups also doing so from within the Church so I think that the claim that the EF would have died without them is vastly overblown.

It is also quite feasible that it might have returned or been more available much earlier if the SSPX were not present since making it more available would have been easily seen by many (as is the case now) as the Church caving to dissidents. Without the SSPX the Church would have been much more able to make it available without looking weak in doing so.

I have great respect for the devotion and zeal of those I have encountered who follow the SSPX. At the same time though that respect is tempered much as it is for PETA: I respect their devotion and cause while being in full disagreement with their methods which I find counterproductive and divisive. The true prophets always found a way to call the Church to accountability from within, as many other groups have been doing.

Hopefully the ongoing discussions will be fruitful and the division within the Body of Christ will cease.
 
The “disobedience” part aside, there is no doubt they were instrumental. I think most wouldn’t admit it because of the “disobedience.” But even** before 1988**, there is no doubt the Archbishop Lefebrve kept the TLM torch alive. How else would the TLM had survived? Even the first legitimate TLM priests were ex-SSPX. Several cardinals might have been sympathetic but no bishops wanted it or were willing to even ordain priests to say or train others to say the TLM. No teachers, no interest, no TLM.
 
Can’t vote because my opinion isn’t there. This one should be:

The reform of the renewal would have happened a LOT faster if those who recognized the problems had stayed and proclaimed the truth with confidence, humility and charity instead of schisming off and sequestering themselves where they had nearly zero effectiveness of demonstrating to the bulk of the faithful an alternative to the dissidents and apostates that tried to hijack the church after the council. Instead it took about 30 years for the word to get out that not everything taight locally as being part of the “Spirit of Vatican II” was consistant with what Vatican II ACTUALLY says!

But that’s kind of a long poll entry…😃
 
Onegin said:
How can you express your love for the TLM if the TLM is abrogated? Alone at home in your own mind? If you are a Priest does this mean shutting up and saying the OF Mass while secretly loving the TLM in your heart?

At the time all of this “disobedience” went down, the practical implication of the word “obedience” to the lay catholic would have meant no TLM available and, for the Priest it would have meant that he could not celebrate it.

That’s just what I’m not understanding.
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I’ll second ncjohn’s response.

Realistically, there was never a chance that the TLM would completely disappear, due to the sheer size of the Catholic Church. On a more local level, the chance that the St. Stanislaus Kostka Church (see here) would be closed and sold to provide for needs of rest of the diocese was great. Does that justify the disobedience of their parishioners? It’s hard for me to see how anyone who supports the SSPX’s disobedience can then point their fingers at the St. Stanislaus parishioners.

For a positive example, aren’t there numerous examples of wives converting their husbands through loving obedience to misguided demands rather than by direct and willful disobedience? I seem to remember discussion of a female saint who had such a life experience.
 
Manualman, I’m not an SSPX groupie, but I think you should get yourself a copy of Michael Davies’ book “Apologia Pro Marcel Lefebvre - Vol. 1” to see how everything really happened concerning ABL and the SSPX. The book goes into a lot of detail with official correpondence.
 
Just_Lurking said:
I’ll second ncjohn’s response.

Realistically, there was never a chance that the TLM would completely disappear, due to the sheer size of the Catholic Church.
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Okay, but if the New Mass abrogated the TLM, how could the TLM have remained in use without the “disobedience” of someone, somewhere at some point?

People could beg and plead all they want but the Indult didn’t show up for quite a while after the implimentation of the Novus Ordo.

This comes back to my previous conclusion which is that if you think that the SSPX should have “expressed love for the TLM” without “disobeying” this, practically speaking, means that you think they should have shut up and started celebrating the Novus Ordo until Rome had a change of heart on the matter.

I’m open to other conclusions, but this one seems pretty inescapable.
 
Onegin said:
This comes back to my previous conclusion which is that if you think that the SSPX should have “expressed love for the TLM” without “disobeying” this, practically speaking, means that you think they should have shut up and started celebrating the Novus Ordo until Rome had a change of heart on the matter.
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I don’t see where the “shut up” part comes from. Anyone who loved the TLM could make their wants and needs known in a respectful manner.
 
Silyosha said:
They have worked hard to keep it up, but I wouldn’t say the TLM wouldn’t exist today without them, not by a long shot. They are nowhere near us and we have the TLM every week…
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The SSPX was founded in 1970 in order to preserve the Traditional Mass and other Traditional elements in the Church that were being trampled underfoot in the mad rush towards modernization at all costs in the late 60’s and early 70’s. Remember at that time the Traditional Mass was not to be celebrated by anyone except the SSPX and a few Priests scattered here and there who had special dispensation not to have to celebrate the Ordinary Form… There was no other place to find the Traditional Mass except at a choice few locations in the entire world. None zip, zero. It had been effectively stamped out except in the example above. No other institutes existed similar to the SSPX and no religious orders dedicated to preserving it.

In fact there was great hostility and hatred towards the Traditional Mass by just about all of the Bishops and Priests of the period, especially the French and other European Bishops who saw Lefbreve as a renegade and according to some accounts a buffoon. In the US he was widely cnosidered to be an enemy of ecumenism and a throwback to the bad days that existed prior to Vatican II. That is the truth of the situation, like it or not…

The indult was granted by John Paul II in the first place in great part to encourage the SSPX to come back to the good graces of the Church, in addition to the fact that the Church saw the popularity of the Traditional Mass growing in areas that had SSPX Chapels. They were shocked. In truth the Church herself at that time I think secretly hoped that the Traditional Mass would die a dignified death and disappear. There would have been as you stated a change of heart from the Church on the issue. I have no doubt of that at all.

So yes, I think it is quite fair to say and highly accurate as well that without the SSPX the Traditional Mass would not even be around these days.

No matter how you personally feel about the SSPX you do have to give them credit for that if for nothing else.
 
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