Where's Kedar?

[Ginger2]

According to Islam, Mohammad is the direct descendent of Kedar who is the 2nd son born to Ishmael. So, the Muslim lineage should be Abraham, Ishmael, Kedar and Kedar’s twelve sons.

However, the Koran never once mentions Kedar. Instead the lineage always reads: Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and Jacob’s twelve sons. Which appears to support the Christian Bible’s lineage to Jesus.

I am seriously interested in how this is explained.

A second question is that the Koran states the prophet come from Isaac, not Ishmael. So how does the Koran support Muhammad as a prophet?

It appears a contradiction.

 

[Khalfan]

According to Islam, Mohammad is the direct descendent of Kedar who is the 2nd son born to Ishmael. So, the Muslim lineage should be Abraham, Ishmael, Kedar and Kedar’s twelve sons.

However, the Koran never once mentions Kedar. Instead the lineage always reads: Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and Jacob’s twelve sons. Which appears to support the Christian Bible’s lineage to Jesus.

I am seriously interested in how this is explained.

I have never sees any verse in Quran quoting the lineage of Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) with names. Abraham, Ishmael, Ishaac, Jacob and Joseph (pbut) are mentioned by name as few of the 25 prophets that mentioned in Quran.

A second question is that the Koran states the prophet come from Isaac, not Ishmael. So how does the Koran support Muhammad as a prophet?

It appears a contradiction.

Ref please.

 

[Ginger2]

I think you missed the point of my first question.

2:136 Says: "We believe in God, and in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, and that which has been bestowed upon Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and his descendants,

Why does this verse name Jacob and not name Kedar. Why is Jacob mentioned so many times and Kedar is not mentioned at all. I can understand Isaac being mentioned because they were both Abraham’s sons, but why so much focus on Isaac’s descendents and no mention of Ishmael’s? That’s what doesn’t make sense.

References for the 2nd question: 6:84, 29:27, 19:49

29:27 And [as for Abraham,] We bestowed upon him Isaac and [Isaac’s son] jacob, and caused pro*phethood and revelation to continue among his offspring. And We vouchsafed him his reward in this world; and, verily, in the life to come [too] he shall find himself among the righteous.

 

[Khalfan]

I think you missed the point of my first question.

2:136 Says: "We believe in God, and in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, and that which has been bestowed upon Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and his descendants,

Why does this verse name Jacob and not name Kedar. Why is Jacob mentioned so many times and Kedar is not mentioned at all. I can understand Isaac being mentioned because they were both Abraham’s sons, but why so much focus on Isaac’s descendents and no mention of Ishmael’s? That’s what doesn’t make sense.

2.135 And they say: Be Jews or Christians, then ye will be rightly guided. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Nay, but (we follow) the religion of Abraham, the upright, and he was not of the idolaters.

2.136 Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

2.137 And if they believe in the like of that which ye believe, then are they rightly guided. But if they turn away, then are they in schism, and Allah will suffice thee (for defence) against them. He is the Hearer, the Knower.

Read the verse with context. You can clearly see, God teaching Muslims, how to reply JEWS and CHRISTIANS. There are two reasons for that. 1) Both Christians and Jews do accept all those people mentioned, except few like Jesus (pbuh) to Jews. 2) Most of them were came to Israelites with not much time difference.

Now, Kedar is not mentioned becasue 1) He was not a prophet.(God knows better, since all prophets are not mentioned by name in Quran) 2) He was not a saintly person accepted to Jews or Christians.

Descendents of Isaac (pbuh) is mentioned becasue they are accepted by you, like Yaqoob (Jacob), Yusuf (Joseph), Musa (Moses), Haroon (Aron), Yunus (Jonah), Ayyub (Job), Daood (David), Sulaiman (Solomon), Zakariya (Zacharia), Yahya (John the baptist) and Isa (Jesus) (PBUTA). The situation was focused on Jews and Christians, so the verse revealed accordingly. Otherwise as I have already said, lineage of Mohamed (pbuh) is not mentioned in the Quran by name.

I will give you the lineage of Mohamed (pbuh), but please note that we don’t believe in him becasue of the lineage. His own testimony is not taken as evident until Quran proves it’s own truth that it is from God and Mohamed (pbuh) is the messenger of God. There is no circular reasoning. Quran provides enough evidence for testimony to prove it is from God. The scintifically established facts are the best that can be examined today. Check this.

 

[Ginger2]

So you are saying the Koran was written to testify to Jews and Christians. (It is still curious that Kedar is never mentioned)
However, that makes sense to use Isaac’s decendent as proof rather than Ishmael. Is that what you are saying?

 

[Khalfan]

References for the 2nd question: 6:84, 29:27, 19:49

29:27 And [as for Abraham,] We bestowed upon him Isaac and [Isaac’s son] jacob, and caused pro*phethood and revelation to continue among his offspring. And We vouchsafed him his reward in this world; and, verily, in the life to come [too] he shall find himself among the righteous.

29:27 And We bestowed on him Isaac and Jacob, and We established the prophethood and the Scripture among his seed, and We gave him his reward in the world, and lo! in the Hereafter he verily is among the righteous.

It is not a prophecy of a coming prophet, but talking about the blessings given to Abraham (pbuh) and their status in the afterlife. Abraham, 2 sons, Ismael and Isaac, Son of Isaac -Jacob, Son of Jacob -Joseph, all they were prophets (PBUAT). 5 prophets from the same family in just 4 generation; It is the greatest family ever lived. Even today, we pray to God to bless the family of Mohamed (pbuh) as he did with Abraham’s family (PBUTA).

6:84-87 And We bestowed upon him Isaac and Jacob; each of them We guided; and Noah did We guide aforetime; and of his seed (We guided) David and Solomon and Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron. Thus do We reward the good. And Zachariah and John and Jesus and Elias. Each one (of them) was of the righteous. And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot. Each one (of them) did We prefer above (Our) creatures, With some of their forefathers and their offspring and their brethren; and We chose them and guided them unto a straight path.

As you can see, lineage is not the point.

Read chapter 19, verse 28 onwards. It talkes about the Jews that rejected Mary and Jesus (PBUT).

 

[Khalfan]

The lineage of Mohamed (pbuh).

Muhammad bin ‘Abdullah bin ‘Abdul-Muttalib (who was called Shaiba) bin Hashim, (named ‘Amr) bin ‘Abd Munaf (called Al-Mugheera) bin Qusai (also called Zaid) bin Kilab bin Murra bin Ka‘b bin Lo’i bin Ghalib bin Fahr (who was called Quraish and whose tribe was called after him) bin Malik bin An-Nadr (so called Qais) bin Kinana bin Khuzaiman bin Mudrikah (who was called ‘Amir) bin Elias bin Mudar bin Nizar bin Ma‘ad bin ‘Adnan. [Ibn Hisham 1/1,2; Talqeeh Fuhoom Ahl Al-Athar, p. 5-6; Rahmat-ul-lil’alameen 2/11-14,52]

‘Adnan bin Add bin Humaisi‘ bin Salaman bin Aws bin Buz bin Qamwal bin Obai bin ‘Awwam bin Nashid bin Haza bin Bildas bin Yadlaf bin Tabikh bin Jahim bin Nahish bin Makhi bin Aid bin ‘Abqar bin ‘Ubaid bin Ad-Da‘a bin Hamdan bin Sanbir bin Yathrabi bin Yahzin bin Yalhan bin Ar‘awi bin Aid bin Deshan bin Aisar bin Afnad bin Aiham bin Muksar bin Nahith bin Zarih bin Sami bin Mazzi bin ‘Awda bin Aram bin Qaidar bin Ishmael son of Abraham [AWS]. [Rahmat-ul-lil’alameen 2/14-17]

God knows best.

 

[Khalfan]

So you are saying the Koran was written to testify to Jews and Christians. (It is still curious that Kedar is never mentioned)

Not only to Jews and Christians but to all. In faith in true God, Christians are the closest. Then the Jews. So that, they have special consideration in Quran and in Islam.

However, that makes sense to use Isaac’s decendent as proof rather than Ishmael. Is that what you are saying?

Proof for what? I already said, the lineage dosen’t prove anything itself, unless Quran proves itself that it is from God.

 

[Ginger2]

I am not talking about the lineage, as you already said that wasn’t important.

I am asking if I correctly understand that the point of mentioning Isaac, Jacob and his twelve sons was to witness to Jews and Christians?

 

[Khalfan]

I am not talking about the lineage, as you already said that wasn’t important.

I am asking if I correctly understand that the point of mentioning Isaac, Jacob and his twelve sons was to witness to Jews and Christians?

You understood, but partially. Quran wasn’t mentioning Jacob (pbuh) and his 12 sons, but one son Joseph (pbuh) and other prophets came from their family who all accepted (witness) by both Jews and Christians.

 

[Ginger2]

Why is descendents plural if it is talking about Joseph?

How does the Koran support Mohammad as a prophet - aside from Mohammad making that claim?

 

[Khalfan]

Why is descendents plural if it is talking about Joseph?

It is about the other prophets came from the same family/lineage.

6:84-87 And We bestowed upon him Isaac and Jacob; each of them We guided; and Noah did We guide aforetime; and of his seed (We guided) David and Solomon and Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron. Thus do We reward the good. And Zachariah and John and Jesus and Elias. Each one (of them) was of the righteous.

Those are few of them.

How does the Koran support Mohammad as a prophet - aside from Mohammad making that claim?

Even prophet (pbuh) had a situation where he was so disappointed that the people were not believing his words. So these verses revealed to strengthen him in his mission.

36:2-6 “I swear by the Quran full of wisdom, Most surely you are one of the messengers, On a right way, A revelation of the Mighty, the Merciful, That you may warn a people whose fathers were not warned, so they are heedless”

We don’t have to believe, Mohamed (pbuh) is a messenger/prophet unless and until we are sure, Quran is from God. If it is from God, surely Mohamed (pbuh) is a messenger of God, since he is the one who gave us Quran. If you read the Quran, you can see it is talking to Mohamed (pbuh), commanding like ‘say’, ‘read’ etc. and even critisizes him. So psychologically, he cannot have authored such a book. There are many other criterias Quran itself provides us to verify, if it is really from God, such as the signs around us, which includes scintifical statements which no man could have said 1400 years ago. Check these.

 

[inJESUS]

as a side note, Paul scriticized himself in his letters, does this make him a true messenger/prophet/disciple?

 

[Ginger2]

You lose me on the scientific “evidence”. I researched it once and there are many errors. I don’t remember specifics as it was quite awhile ago.

Anyway, If the koran was written to witness to the Jews and Christians, I find many other passages to be problematic.

sura 4:136 "O you who believe! Believe in Allah, and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and the Book (the Quran) which He has sent down to His Messenger, and the Scripture (the Bible) which He sent down to those before (him),

God says believe the Scriptures

sura 5:44 ‘We [God] did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and light…’

                            God revealed the Torah

sura 5:46 “We sent Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), confirming the Taurat (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Taurat (Torah) that had come before it,”

                            God revealed the Injeel to confirm the Torah

sura 10:94 “So if you (O Muhammad SAW) are in doubt concerning that which We have revealed unto you, then ask those who are reading the Book (the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)) before you. Verily, the truth has come to you from your Lord. So be not of those who doubt (it).”
If the Bible was corrupt even before Jesus was born, Why does God tell Muhanmmad to "ask those who are reading" the Scriptures to see if the Quran is true?

 

[inJESUS]

I opened a new thread about Biblical corruption from the Quran called :Khalfan -corruption.It’s maybe in page 2 or 3 cuz nobody answered.

 

[Khalfan]

as a side note, Paul scriticized himself in his letters, does this make him a true messenger/prophet/disciple?

Did he say he is a messenger? Did he say the letter he wrote was the words of God as he got it or is it his words/letters to the gentiles according to the visions he saw?

Being critisizing is one of the many reasons to believe in Quran. Mohamed (pbuh) was an illiterate to write any book, even his own name. Will you say Paul too was illiterate in order to similarise the writings?

 

[Khalfan]

You lose me on the scientific “evidence”. I researched it once and there are many errors. I don’t remember specifics as it was quite a while ago.

Please quote the errors, may be I can help in something.

Anyway, If the koran was written to witness to the Jews and Christians, I find many other passages to be problematic.

sura 4:136 "O you who believe! Believe in Allah, and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and the Book (the Quran) which He has sent down to His Messenger, and the Scripture (the Bible) which He sent down to those before (him),

God says believe the Scriptures

sura 5:44 ‘We [God] did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and light…’

                            God revealed the Torah

sura 5:46 “We sent Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), confirming the Taurat (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Taurat (Torah) that had come before it,”

                            God revealed the Injeel to confirm the Torah

sura 10:94 “So if you (O Muhammad SAW) are in doubt concerning that which We have revealed unto you, then ask those who are reading the Book (the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)) before you. Verily, the truth has come to you from your Lord. So be not of those who doubt (it).”

                            If the Bible was corrupt even before Jesus  was born, Why does God tell Muhanmmad to "ask those who are reading" the Scriptures  to see if the Quran is true?

Do Muslims supposed to accept the Bible? That is the basic question. As you can read above in the Quranic verses, Torah (the words of God that revealed to Moses (pbuh)), Zaboor (the words of God that revealed to David (pbuh)) and Injeel (the words of God that revealed to David (pbuh)) is the one we are supposed to believe and refer in concern witnessing Quran. Can you tell me how do I seperate those words of God, from the words of those unknown writers as it is in the current Bible? Do you have an original Bible in the original language it was written? Do you have accurate (May not be 100%) translation atleast; Can you name the version? Then I will tell you weather we believe in it or not.

 

[Ginger2]

My question is not whether or not you believe the Bible.

Of course you don’t because the Koran says the Bible is corrupt. The Koran says it was corrupt in Jesus time.

So my question is why would God tell Mohamad to use the Bible to varify that it was truly the one and only God who was speaking to him?

Also,

Why did Mohamad then tell the Jews that they could prove that Mohamad was a prophet of God by reading the Torah and the Gospels.

The Koran says the Jews had already changed the Tora long before Jesus was even born.

 

[inJESUS]

Did he say he is a messenger? Did he say the letter he wrote was the words of God as he got it or is it his words/letters to the gentiles according to the visions he saw?

who inspired Paul to write what Muhammad quoted in his hadith?

“And we speak about these things, not with words taught us by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people.” 1 Corinthians 2:13

"If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I AM WRITING to you IS THE LORD’S COMMAND. Corinthians 14:37

“Finally, brothers, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more. For you know what instructions we gave you BY THE AUTHORITY OF THE LORD JESUS … Therefore, he who rejects THIS INSTRUCTION does not reject man BUT GOD, who gives you his Holy Spirit.” 1 Thessalonians 4:1-2, 8

Being critisizing is one of the many reasons to believe in Quran. Mohamed (pbuh) was an illiterate to write any book, even his own name. Will you say Paul too was illiterate in order to similarise the writings?

 

[Khalfan]

My question is not whether or not you believe the Bible.

Of course you don’t because the Koran says the Bible is corrupt. The Koran says it was corrupt in Jesus time.

So my question is why would God tell Mohamad to use the Bible to varify that it was truly the one and only God who was speaking to him?

Also,

Why did Mohamad then tell the Jews that they could prove that Mohamad was a prophet of God by reading the Torah and the Gospels.

The Koran says the Jews had already changed the Tora long before Jesus was even born.

Actually my question wasn’t to say i don’t believe in Bible. Instead I am asking if the Torah, Zaboor and Injeel do exist today as it was revealed. You probably answer Yes. Since the Quranic verses too supports the same in your view that it existed as its original at the time prophet (pbhu), otherwise God wouldn’t ask Muslims to refer Bible, to prove Quran.

We do refer Bible to prove Quran, because we find enough evidence in the current Bible for the revelation that came to previous prophets (pbut); explicit statements about oneness of God, who is only to be worshiped; and the formation and development of Christianity. Meanwhile God clearly warns that there are human writings as well in those scriptures. If we read OT, we still find evidence of previous prophets (pbuh) and of those revelations came to them here and there like, Duet 6:4, Ezekiel 18 and many other. We muslims too believe in those concepts. Since Quran says the same message, it indeed witnesses the message is truly from God. This is what Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) too was asked. Now if we check NT, there are some indication about the Injeel in the living Bible like,

Mark 1:14 After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God.

Do we find the Good news of God in the gospels? If we read gospels from Mark, then Matthew and Luke then John, we can clearly see the development of Jesus (pbuh) from a messenger that came to preach the good news of God, to a God that came to die for mankind. Many scholars have confirmed, that the title ‘Son of God’ in Mk 1:1 is later addition in order to promot Jesus (pbuh) as the Son of God which is a later developed concept. Mark too used the same term ‘Son of God’ but 1) not as much as John, 2) Since we don’t have an early writing than Mark we cannot find the development in Mark. In many other place, we can see the changes done. God changed to father (Mark 3:35 - Matthew 12:50), Rabbi changed to Lord (Mark 9:5 - Matthew 17:4), Master changed to Lord (Mark 13:35 - Matthew 24:42), Son of God added (Mark 8:27-29 - Matthew 16:13-16), rebuke to Jesus (pbuh) changed to a prayer (Mark 6:51-52 - Matthew 14:32-33). So, in these added/fabricated/developed beliefs, what we lose is the true Good news that Jesus (pbuh) preached. For this reason too, while Quran says we should refer NT, Quran also warns it is been corrupted, since we can see the real Jesus (pbhu) and the developed Jesus-God in the same NT.

Since Jews believe in the same message of one God, Torah can give evidence for the truth of Quran and Mohamed (pbuh). Please note that Quran doesn’t refer to the human writings as Torah or any scripture but the true message that was revealed.