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Catholicc
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I’ve heard Karl Keating say that God wills the salvation of all men, but I swear I can’t find such a passage in the Bile. Does anyone know where it says that?
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wanner47
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Luke65
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And:
“For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.” (Titus 2:11)
“For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.” (Titus 2:11)
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Abbadon
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Doesn’t god hardens mens hearts (Pharo) against him and also make non believers unable to see the truth? Something along those lines?
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wanner47
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Source?
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MariaG
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But only those whom He already knows will not turn to Him.
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Luke65
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And only after they first harden their hearts to God, like Pharaoh did (Exodus 8:15).
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Abbadon
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So since he knows who is damned may as well make this sin worse while he’s at it?
I thought god didn’t interfere in free will?
So there is a predetermined list of damned?
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Abbadon
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If god hardens your heart even more how on earth does he then expect us to attempt to reach salvation? We have lost any chance we had of turning back, because he just willed it impossible.
I was referring to something else in the old testament, around the time of David or Solomon, one of the stories god makes unbelievers or something of the like. Or spirits of wickedness or unbelief. I’ll have a browse through the bible.
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Luke65
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No, just a list of the saved.
(Rev. 20)
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Luke65
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2 Corinthians 4:4
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Abbadon
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4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
That is one, but that’s not THE one I’m talking about.
But yes in this it says people are blinded unless the image of god should sine unto them through the glorious gospel of Christ. So we need to read the gospel of Christ to be saved if god has chosen that we should be blinded.
This just get’s worse and worse…
What if metaphorically the batteries are dead?
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Abbadon
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So there is already a predetermined list of saved? So what happens to everyone else? What is their predetermined fate?No, just a list of the saved.
What’s the point of bothering for the people on the predetermined list that isn’t going to be saved?
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Luke65
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It seems like you’re ignoring the first two quotes on this thread. So to harmonize: God wants all of us to be saved. He offers salvific grace to everybody. Only when people reject His grace, of their own free will, does God withdraw His grace - which is what “harden the heart” and “blind the mind” mean. And this isn’t a one time event - its a process. You have to persistently reject the will of God to become blinded. But whenever you turn to God in repentance, He gives you more grace. And there are many other ways to grow in grace, but first you have to humble yourself before your Creator and sincerely seek Him out. And if you do seek, earnestly and diligently, you will find Him. Promise made, promise kept, billions of times.
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Luke65
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Because we don’t know who’s on the list! Only God does. God knows the end from the beginning, because He exists outside of time, because He created time! You know, without space and matter there is no time? So God sees it all at once - He is omnipresent. So “predestination” is from God’s point of view, not ours. He gave us our mission, and its not for us to try and figure out whose name is in the Book of Life and whose isn’t.
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Abbadon
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What if you lived 500 000 years ago?It seems like you’re ignoring the first two quotes on this thread. So to harmonize: God wants all of us to be saved. He offers salvific grace to everybody. Only when people reject His grace, of their own free will, does God withdraw His grace - which is what “harden the heart” and “blind the mind” mean. And this isn’t a one time event - its a process. You have to persistently reject the will of God to become blinded. But whenever you turn to God in repentance, He gives you more grace. And there are many other ways to grow in grace, but first you have to humble yourself before your Creator and sincerely seek Him out. And if you do seek, earnestly and diligently, you will find Him. Promise made, promise kept, billions of times.
What if you have more important things to do like attempt to end world hunger and you can’t be bothered working out if a god exists and if Christianity is the right one so you let it slide until you have ended world hunger?
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Abbadon
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I’m still not sure why we should bother if the list is already made up. Because if we do we have just wasted all our time on earth, 80 years we could have been living life to the fullest and doing the best we could have done, ending world hunger and poverty and helping make every human have the ability to live forever on this earth. Instead we read the Qu’ran alot go to mosque everyday do religious stuff blah blah blah… All to end up in hell anyway.
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Luke65
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God’s justice is perfect. He offers salvific grace to everyone! Whenever they lived. And doing good works is good, but what about giving thanks and praise to the One who gave you everything?
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Luke65
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Our eternal lives are determined by how we live our lives here. What greater motive could there be? And keep in mind, we are all part of God’s plan for salvation. There are names in the Book of Life because of people here at CAF! What greater motive can there be than to try and help others find eternal salvation? And as for others who seek God in all the wrong places, remember God is first and foremost interested in what is in your heart. Again, our mission is to live and preach the Gospel - and leave the rest in God’s able hands.
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Abbadon
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Other than occasionally surfing the net on forums who has time for that?
Over the average lifespan someone working on ending world hunger would loose 173days of research time. If one went to church on Sundays and did no more.
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