Where's the love?

[Dave_in_Dallas]

I (and some others I know) have been told by numerous people on here that we’re not really Catholics or are bad Catholics at the very least.

If I don’t believe 100% of what the Church teaches – and I am referring to items like IC & Papal Infalibility… then I am not even really Catholic… forbid that anyone find out what a terrible sinner I am!

I believe that there is no perfect church… However that’s not to say that there’s not a historical church or a church that’s better than another…

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I (and some others I know) have been told by numerous people on here that we’re not really Catholics or are bad Catholics at the very least.

If I don’t believe 100% of what the Church teaches – and I am referring to items like IC & Papal Infalibility… then I am not even really Catholic… forbid that anyone find out what a terrible sinner I am!

I believe that there is no perfect church… However that’s not to say that there’s not a historical church or a church that’s better than another…

Even if you do…you just don’t believe what so and so says because it’s way more stringent…then you are labeled.

I wish we could do a better job of preaching the truth, IN LOVE.

But I still LOVE the Catholic Church…I just get impatient with some of it’s members from time to time.

I sincerely hope that I’m not one of those who said you weren’t Catholic… I’ve already had to apologize to one person.

Peace,

 

[bnbkaine]

But why proclaim yourself Catholic, but not adhere to what it stands for? I am not going to tell you that you aren’t Catholic, I don’t know you, but I don’t understand why you are saying you are Catholic but don’t believe the things Catholics do. I mean, if you said, “I’m a vegan, but I eat meat on Tuesdays.” then you aren’t really a vegan.

 

[Deb_H]

But why proclaim yourself Catholic, but not adhere to what it stands for? I am not going to tell you that you aren’t Catholic, I don’t know you, but I don’t understand why you are saying you are Catholic but don’t believe the things Catholics do. I mean, if you said, “I’m a vegan, but I eat meat on Tuesdays.” then you aren’t really a vegan.

this is kinda my thought on it as well

HOWEVER if you are faithful to follow the magisterium even tho you have doubts and dont believe some parts there is no reason not to consider yourself Catholic . If you do NOT follow the teaching , AND you think it is false then why be Catholic at all ?

I think we all have struggled with our faith and getting our hearts and minds around to the truth , but if you are closed off to the truth because of a stubborn belief then you might need to pray about it some more and seek His face .

 

[JerryS]

The love is in the concern that you might end up in hell, possibly taking others with you.

If you can tell which teachings are critical to your salvation and which are not, which are truth and which are not, which will cause others to stumble when criticized and which will not, then good for you. Even very basic doctrines like the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ are not self-evident and are taken on faith in Church teaching. The real presence of Christ in the Eucharist is a matter of faith. The significance of holy orders and apostolic succession is a matter of faith. Similarly IC and PI. From whence comes your confidence that you can discern at which point the Church is no longer trustworthy?

You’re on the same path as the Protestant reformers. They selectively rejected Catholic dogmas based on their own reason and preferences. Their arguments & theologies are debatable, but I don’t think anyone would argue that they ended up Catholic. Dependence on the reliability of the teaching magisterium of the Church is rather basic to being Catholic.

God be with you in your journey.

 

[Milesius]

Its not a question of love it is a question of acknowledging reality.

The Catholic Faith is a belief system, what a person believes is what makes them a Catholic, or not.

The Catholic Faith is not alone in this, you could not be a Muslim while not believing in what Muslims believe or a religious Jew without believing what religious Jews believe, same goes for all belief systems, to identify as an adherent of a belief system is to hold the beliefs of that system.

 

[TantumErgo]

I too have had similar questions regarding church teaching so perhaps ask yourself what makes you catholic.

When one is Catholic, they believe the creed we recite every sunday. Within that creed we express that we believe in “one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.” Lets expound upon this verse.

First off we believe in one church. We do not believe in many churches that are all trying to figure out God’s will and better understand Him, we believe in one.

Secondly this church we speak of is holy. Now for something to be holy it must pertain to God. Man by himself cannot deem certain things Holy and certain things not. Therefore the one church we believe in was created and made holy by God, and in this case the second person of the Trinity, Jesus, talked of it when he spoke to Peter telling him “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18). Although Pentecost was the official birth of the church.

Thirdly this church is catholic. The word Catholic as you know means universal. This universality is contained within a oneness. Therefore the church is for all, but it is still one, and not an entity to be picked and chosen from like food in a cafeteria line.

Fourthly (if that is even a word) the church is apostolic.This means it is the exact same church that Jesus Christ founded some 2000 years ago. “Apostle” mean one sent, sent by God. So this church which is the same now as it was in its primacy is a church sent by God, that is one, catholic, and holy.

Creation always bears the mark of its creator, and to believe that the church is not perfect is to believe that God is not perfect, for his creation (the Church) bears the likeness of God, just as we bear the likeness of God.

It is ill assumed that God would send His only son to humble Himself, become human, and be crucified, and yet create some imperfect church that would not adhere to His will and teach His teachings faithfully. In fact God even sent the Holy Spirit to guide the Church.

When Jesus said about the church that " the gates of hell will not prevail against it" He specifically is stating that this “one, holy, catholic and apostolic church” would never be corrupted and would prevail against all evil.

With all the latest scandal one may be tempted to think the church is corrupt, but this is not the case. Some members of the church are indeed corrupt but this does not mean the church and its teachings are. In fact 1 out of the first 12 members of the church betrayed Jesus and even our first pope (before he became pope) denied him three times.

We need to trust in God that he won’t let his beloved Church go astray. If you fail to believe some of the churches teachings then what is preventing you from not believing all the teachings? Whatever the church “binds on earth shall be bound in heaven” and whatever it “looses on earth shall be loosed in heaven” therefore when the church teaches a certain dogmatic teaching, we must Trust in God that the Holy Spirit is active within the church and that “the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.” If we think our Almighty and Powerful God would start a church and then not be strong enough to keep it on the right course, then we are wrong. Once man begins to think that the Catholic Church is no longer the Church God gave mankind, then all other aspects of church teaching go down the drain. It was the Catholic Church that put the bible together and gave it its authority, the same church that teaches of papal infallibility. Without the Church there is no Bible.

Have faith that the Church is apostolic (without this fact the bible would hold no merit, for who gave it its authority?), it may seem improbable that something started 2000 years ago would still remain intact, but then again “nothing is impossible for God.”

 

[ZDHayden]

As much as I admire the orthodoxy of some of the above posters, orthodoxy was not the point in question. The question was “Where’s the love?” The OP’s statements made it clear he is at least slightly uncomfortable with the way Catholics have been treating each other. We must remember that while orthodoxy is important, we must not forget in our attempts to abide by the teachings of the Church to love. Remember the Pharisees, who were extremely orthodox: in the eyes of the Law they were impeccable, but Jesus reprimanded them on several occasions for their lack of love.

 

[Corki]

I (and some others I know) have been told by numerous people on here that we’re not really Catholics or are bad Catholics at the very least.

If I don’t believe 100% of what the Church teaches – and I am referring to items like IC & Papal Infalibility… then I am not even really Catholic… forbid that anyone find out what a terrible sinner I am!

I believe that there is no perfect church… However that’s not to say that there’s not a historical church or a church that’s better than another…

Dave,

First of all, in my experience the posters here at CAF are very careful not to call anyone a sinner. And FWIW, I consider all Catholics as “real” Catholics. But there are distinctions among Catholics that cause tension.

I think Annabelle gave the best reason – impatience.

In a forum like this, it becomes important to sort out who’s giving the “straight scoop,” and who is giving a personal interpretation. Anyone can put “Catholic” in his/her profile but some people with that denotation aren’t always giving the Catholic position on things.

People who are here often post in a kind of short hand. What’s the short hand for someone who is Catholic, who probably loves the Church but who doesn’t believe everything the Church teaches and isn’t shy about telling people that? It’s not “bad Catholic” and I’ve been told that “Cafeteria Catholic” is now considered a derogotory term.

Teaching that conforms to what the Church teaches is authentic Catholic teaching but I am not sure if you could call a live person an non-authentic Catholic or a partially-authentic Catholic.

To me, it’s faithful or not. But to refer to someone as an “unfaithful” Catholic seems worse than the Cafeteria.

So what short hand term do you think most describes your relationship to the Church?

 

[ac_claire]

I (and some others I know) have been told by numerous people on here that we’re not really Catholics or are bad Catholics at the very least.

If I don’t believe 100% of what the Church teaches – and I am referring to items like IC & Papal Infalibility… then I am not even really Catholic… forbid that anyone find out what a terrible sinner I am!

I believe that there is no perfect church… However that’s not to say that there’s not a historical church or a church that’s better than another…

Agree with a few of the previous posters. I’m not quite understanding what you’re asking. Maybe you need to tell us what your definition of love is, so we can know how it is that you’d prefer to be spoken to?

As far as what you’ve described…it seems a few people people have told you that you’re not truly Catholic? If the rest of your post is to be believed, I can see why. Has absolutely nothing to do with “lack of love.” Here’s the reasoning: the Catholic Church is at it’s foundation a faith…it is the Faith. If you don’t share this Faith, then how are you really Catholic, you know? It’s not a judgemental I’m making on you; it’s a sincere logistical question.

It’s like the poster said earlier about eating meat but wanting to be called a vegan. It’s the not eating of the meat that makes a person a vegan. In a similar way, it is believing what we believe-- at great risk, btw-- that makes us Catholic.

 

[TedDC]

There seems to be a great enthusiasm in this forum with hanging labels on people: cafeteria Catholic, heretic (they come in two flavors, I think), apostate, schismatic.

 

[magdelaine1173]

I (and some others I know) have been told by numerous people on here that we’re not really Catholics or are bad Catholics at the very least.

If I don’t believe 100% of what the Church teaches – and I am referring to items like IC & Papal Infalibility… then I am not even really Catholic… forbid that anyone find out what a terrible sinner I am!

I believe that there is no perfect church… However that’s not to say that there’s not a historical church or a church that’s better than another…

It is in your answer that you give that people have a problem with labeling you not a good Catholic. If you choose to believe in what you wih and not the teachings of the church then you run into problems. The Pope is given his words to speak from God, and God alone. If you do not believe in infalability, what DO you believe in? Maybe if you shared some of your beliefs we could come to an understanding of where you are coming from. CC doctrine is what it is, something that Catholics believe in. As far as love? Discipline in the teachings and followings of the tenants of catholic belief are also love in that we do not want to disobey the rules handed down to us by our founders. Christ most notably. And for what it is worth, some on these forums may admonish you, but it is because it shocks them to hear such things from someone who wants to be considered a good Catholic.

just my :twocents:
Magdelaine1173

 

[Dave_in_Dallas]

As shown in some of the above posts that someone MUST believe 100% of what the church says to be a “Catholic”.
Yet that is NOT taught in many RCIA, CCD, etc For that matter not much doctrine is taught at all, but are expected to blindly believe whatever the church says… because it’s what the church says.
So we are letting new people in the church then via RCIA without making them sign or verbally agree to follow and believe all church teachings? Seems pretty straight forward to me… BUT that’s not what is done.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I’m not sure then what the question is, Dave.

The fact that some people are not getting adequate catechesis and thus are ‘admitted’ to the faith not knowing they must believe 100% is certainly tragic–but what must then be addressed is helping the people to come to 100% belief. NOT saying, "Well, gee, since we didn’t make it clear, y’all have a free pass on what you can’t believe because otherwise we wouldn’t be fair and loving since it was ‘our fault’ you didn’t learn the truth’.

I mean, really. If a person graduated from high school having taken a required course in algebra where the teacher taught the work incorrectly, and the person was going on to college algebra and found out that what he had learned in high school was wrong. . .certainly the person could be more than a little ‘peeved’ that he was taught incorrectly, and certainly he could and SHOULD let the teacher and the school know. . .and possibly get the local, state AND feds in to deal with this at the ‘source’ (the teacher in the high school). . .

BUT the person would not be permitted to continue with college algebra and do that work from the ‘incorrect’ work he had been taught. He would in essence have to ‘redo’ his high school work, learn the correct formulae, and then go on to college algebra.

If he insisted, "But I was taught this in high school, it is somebody else’s responsibility to make what I was ‘taught’ FIT what I need for college without ME having to relearn what was wrong’–it couldn’t be done. One way or another, HE is the one who will have to ‘relearn’; the college material that he needs cannot be ‘made wrong’ in order to mesh with the ‘wrong’ he learned from high school.

It is a shame, but once we find out that what we ‘know’ is wrong, we have the responsibility to ‘get it right’. Again, it is a shame that the original error took place, but we can’t live in the past, and we have to ‘fix’ errors and not let them remain as errors once we know they are errors. Of course we can be justifiably angry at the error, but we need to use that anger productively, in fixing error first for ourselves, then addressing the source so the error will no longer exist for others. . .and then letting the anger ‘go’.

 

[TantumErgo]

I agree with the other Tantum Ergo.

Someone mentioned this whole “where is the love?” thing, and I guess there is a confusion on what love is.

To not believe in all the church teachings is to be in the dark, stumbling around. There is a spiritual battle going on within your soul. Now would love be someone who tells you “Oh its alright, your still Catholic” but yet does not help you in anyway with finding the light and ending this spiritual battle? Or is love more like someone who wants to see you get to heaven, wants to help you in your struggle, and will risk being seen as “non loving” if ti means they can help you draw closer to God?

I feel like by love you mean not caring about your soul, or turning away when one needs help.

 

[Dave_in_Dallas]

I

The fact that some people are not getting adequate catechesis

It’s not just “some” it’s many, many people.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

It’s not just “some” it’s many, many people.

That may be so. If my memory serves me (my memory of study, not my personal memory of living then, LOL), the Church in the 4th century saw some 70% of its bishops and at least 50% of the laity fall victim to the Arian heresy. . .some of course because they ‘expounded it’ but many others because that is what they were ‘incorrectly’ taught.

Within a generation, the Church ‘came through’, overcame the adversity and the heresy, and made the true teachings (which had always been there) clear.

Did some people still remain heretics? Sure. Was there some culpability on the part of those who taught them heresy? Yes if they did so knowing it was a heresy, or if, being aware it was heresy, did not ‘recant’. But when it comes down to it, the main culpability is on the person when he or she becomes aware that what he/she was taught was error.

We must be ‘kind’ but we have to be absolutely CLEAR that ‘kindness’ does not mean acceptance of wrong teaching as ‘right’. Otherwise we aren’t being kind, we’re enabling people to believe and perpetuate error as truth.

It’s just like any other example where we have a situation where there is truth, and there is error, and we have free will to accept one or the other.

God apparently finds free will ‘worthwhile’ enough that He takes the ‘risk’ that a given person will freely choose error instead of truth. But I’m sure He wills that all choose truth, and we can not only pray for that, but do our best to ensure that we TEACH the truth so that people are aware of it.

 

[Lancer]

I (and some others I know) have been told by numerous people on here that we’re not really Catholics or are bad Catholics at the very least.

If I don’t believe 100% of what the Church teaches – and I am referring to items like IC & Papal Infalibility… then I am not even really Catholic… forbid that anyone find out what a terrible sinner I am!

I believe that there is no perfect church… However that’s not to say that there’s not a historical church or a church that’s better than another…

First…some of the faithful in the pews in fact do have a hard time accepting/believing a teaching(s) of the Catholic Church…which to me is not an insurmountable problem or too difficult for them to resolve…if they want to put the prayer and catechesis efforts into the issue(s)…but…it is a whole different problem (a monumental one) for a Catholic to say that the Catholic Church’s teaching(s) on a faith and/or morals issue(s) is WRONG!..or in ERROR!

Here is Our Lord Jesus’ own words: (1) to** Peter** and again (2) to the Seventy-two Disciples and (3) to the Eleven Apostles…as He them commanded:

Matthew 16:17-19 (NIV)–Peter’s Confession of Faith

17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will** give you** the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

**Luke 10:16 (NIV)–**Jesus Sends out the Seventy-two

16"He who** listens to you listens to me**; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

**Matthew 28: 16-20 (NIV)–The Great Commission **

16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely** I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”**

I don’t think Our Lord Jesus is confused or saying…to the apostles or the faithful just “…have a nice day…”. He sounds rather serious and urgent about what he is doing and what he wants done by His Church and by His faithful.
Second, to me there is only one “bottom line” reason…a simple one…to be a Catholic…because you really believe Catholicism its TRUE…that all it teaches/professes (the whole of all of its doctrines and dogmas…on faith and morals…the teachings of the Magisterium/Catechism)…are ALL TRUE.

Third, once you start picking and choosing what you will/will not believe/accept…you are really doing something very profound…you become in (Prof. Peter Kreeft’s words)…the Catholic who says:

“Ah, excuse me Saint Peter (Pope_____), but you are sitting in my Chair”…(Ex Cathedra)!

Fourth, if you are comfortable as a Catholic with that “theology”…why would you even want to do the “heavy lifting” that it takes to be a Catholic…and I do mean “heavy lifting”…because the Catholic Church is not the Church for the faint hearted believer, the thin skinned person in the pew, or self-styled individual who wants the song…“I did it my way”…played at his/her funeral!

The late Venerable Pope John Paul II, the Great, said in Redemptoris Missio, his 1990 encyclical on Christian mission that: “The Church proposes; she imposes nothing” (emphasis in original).
Now here is the “catch”…what She (the Catholic Church) proposes…in faith and morals is …always and only…The Truth…and (as JP-II and B-XVI always said/say)…Truth is not something…it is someone… a person…Our Lord Jesus Christ!

John 14: 6 (NIV)
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and** the truth** and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

For your consideration…hope this is somewhat helpful.
Pax Christi

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I (and some others I know) have been told by numerous people on here that we’re not really Catholics or are bad Catholics at the very least.

If I don’t believe 100% of what the Church teaches – and I am referring to items like IC & Papal Infalibility… then I am not even really Catholic… forbid that anyone find out what a terrible sinner I am!

I believe that there is no perfect church… However that’s not to say that there’s not a historical church or a church that’s better than another…

Oh…there is a perfect church, IMHO…just not perfect people in it, IMHO Ok…maybe I’m not a good Catholic…but what is IC?

It seems that some people get overly zealous and sometimes do not convey that in the most…lovingly but firm manner… I know I can get defensive when I feel Holy Mother Church is being attacked. However it work on the other way too. There are people who believe that maybe the Church errored in CITH or something like altar girls. It’s ok to have your opinion and discuss those…but sometime we can get down right nasty about it. I know I just LOVE being told that I don’t believe in the Real Presence because I take CITH. Then I start to wonder…well really…if the Church can’t get something as important as that right…then maybe she doesn’t have things like birth control right either. Also…some people get defensive right away and don’t even read some of peoples post. I know I’ve had that happen to me…or maybe I wasn’t clear. I talked about people giving answers that were above and beyond what the Church teaches about Mass dispensations. Boy…the storm about how I was asking for Sunday off was just unreal. And yet I’m someone who goes every Sunday and to daily Mass as well…although I did have one dispensation on one Sunday from my priest.

In addition, I do think we need to be aware that our fellow Catholics might be in a different path…it takes a long time to pray about this stuff and mull on it. We might not believe some stuff now but if our hearts our open then we should allow for that. I wasn’t aware either that you signed a piece of paper that you agreed 100% with everything in order for you to be Catholic. but I would hope and pray that people will be open to everything the Catholic Church teaches.

 

[ac_claire]

There seems to be a great enthusiasm in this forum with hanging labels on people: cafeteria Catholic, heretic (they come in two flavors, I think), apostate, schismatic.

…as well as judgemental, “holier than thou”, more Catholic than the pope, “traditionalists”, etc.

Annabelle, IC refers to the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.