Where's the love?

[PJM]

=Dave in Dallas;6931359]I (and some others I know) have been told by numerous people on here that we’re not really Catholics or are bad Catholics at the very least.

If I don’t believe 100% of what the Church teaches – and I am referring to items like IC & Papal Infalibility… then I am not even really Catholic… forbid that anyone find out what a terrible sinner I am!

I believe that there is no perfect church… However that’s not to say that there’s not a historical church or a church that’s better than another…

Dave as an aid to your education I submit the following which articulates the Formal and irrevokable position of OUR Catholic Church: may God lead you to it’s Wisdom and truth.

From the Code of Canon Law:

THE TEACHING FUNCTION OF THE CHURCH LIBER III. DE ECCLESIAE MUNERE DOCENDI

Can. 747 §1. The Church, to which Christ the Lord has entrusted the deposit of faith so that with the assistance of the Holy Spirit it might protect the revealed truth reverently, examine it more closely, and proclaim and expound it faithfully, has the duty and innate right, independent of any human power whatsoever, to preach the gospel to all peoples, also using the means of social communication proper to it.

§2. It belongs to the Church always and everywhere to announce moral principles, even about the social order, and to render judgment concerning any human affairs insofar as the fundamental rights of the human person or the salvation of souls requires it.

Can. 748 §1. All persons are bound to seek the truth in those things which regard God and his Church and by virtue of divine law are bound by the obligation and possess the right of embracing and observing the truth which they have come to know.

§2. No one is ever permitted to coerce persons to embrace the Catholic faith against their conscience.

Can. 749 §1. By virtue of his office, the Supreme Pontiff possesses infallibility in teaching when as the supreme pastor and teacher of all the Christian faithful, who strengthens his brothers and sisters in the faith, he proclaims by definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held.

§2. The college of bishops also possesses infallibility in teaching when the bishops gathered together in an ecumenical council exercise the magisterium as teachers and judges of faith and morals who declare for the universal Church that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held definitively; or when dispersed throughout the world but preserving the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter and teaching authentically together with the Roman Pontiff matters of faith or morals, they agree that a particular proposition is to be held definitively.

§3. No doctrine is understood as defined infallibly unless this is manifestly evident.

Can. 750 §1. A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatsoever contrary to them.

§2. Each and every thing which is proposed definitively by the magisterium of the Church concerning the doctrine of faith and morals, that is, each and every thing which is required to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith, is also to be firm-ly embraced and retained; therefore, one who rejects those propositions which are to be held definitively is opposed to the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

**Can. 751 **Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

Can. 752 Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it.

**Can. 753 **Although the bishops who are in communion with the head and members of the college, whether individually or joined together in conferences of bishops or in particular councils, do not possess infallibility in teaching, they are authentic teachers and instructors of the faith for the Christian faithful entrusted to their care; the Christian faithful are bound to adhere with religious submission of mind to the authentic magisterium of their bishops.

In summary this say’s a Teaching NEED NOT BE INFALLIBLE TO SERIOUSLY BING ALL TO ACCEPTANCE OF IT’S TEACHING!

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Its not a question of love it is a question of acknowledging reality.

The Catholic Faith is a belief system, what a person believes is what makes them a Catholic, or not.

The Catholic Faith is not alone in this, you could not be a Muslim while not believing in what Muslims believe or a religious Jew without believing what religious Jews believe, same goes for all belief systems, to identify as an adherent of a belief system is to hold the beliefs of that system.

But…a question…do you have to believe EVERYTHING of the Catholic Faith? As some people point out…the CC says that if someone is baptized Catholic they remain Catholic. So it does seem like a catch 20/2 no?

I think we have to acknowledge that people are in different places with regards to their faith. For example, I haven’t been to RCIA…so there are a lot of things that I’m a little fuzzy on…like Mary (devotion to). Part of that might be my background…a loving mother and father…the concept escapes me. So for now I put it on the back burner and am on the fence…I neither believe it nor do I not believe it. I am waiting for explanations in RCIA that can help move me off the fence.

So…what does that make me?

(I know you and I have had our differences but this is a sincere question)

 

[Corki]

But…a question…do you have to believe EVERYTHING of the Catholic Faith? As some people point out…the CC says that if someone is baptized Catholic they remain Catholic. So it does seem like a catch 20/2 no?

I think we have to acknowledge that people are in different places with regards to their faith. For example, I haven’t been to RCIA…so there are a lot of things that I’m a little fuzzy on…like Mary (devotion to). Part of that might be my background…a loving mother and father…the concept escapes me. So for now I put it on the back burner and am on the fence…I neither believe it nor do I not believe it. I am waiting for explanations in RCIA that can help move me off the fence.

So…what does that make me?

(I know you and I have had our differences but this is a sincere question)

First of all, private devotion and devotional practices are not part of the teaching of the Church with regard to Faith and Morals.

Catholics have to (or are supposed to) assent in faith to everything the Church teaches with regard to faith and morals. That’s the 100%.

There are many “optional” practices and devotions, however. Marian devotion is one of those - rosaries, May crowning, etc. Belief in the messages of private revelation is another - even those approved by the Church such as Fatima and Lourdes.

There are also disciplines that change over time and Catholics are free to disagree and discuss them ad nauseum. This includes such things as married clergy, how to receive Communion, when to kneel at Mass, when you have to fast/abstain, etc.

There is yet another category where there is a lot of variance in the “how” but agreement in the “what”. An example of this is feeding/caring for the poor. All Catholics must believe that care for the poor is required of us but there is a continuum of belief in how we should best do this.

My position on “who is Catholic” is that anyone batized or received into the Church is Catholic. Full stop. If you can give full assent to the teachings of the Church on faith and morals, no further clarification is needed. If you choose not to give full assent to the Church’s teaching, you may need an adjective such as “dissenting Catholic,” “confused Catholic,” “non-practicing Catholic”.

 

[PJM]

=Lancer;6933796]
First…some of the faithful in the pews in fact do have a hard time accepting/believing a teaching(s) of the Catholic Church…which to me is not an insurmountable problem or too difficult for them to resolve…if they want to put the prayer and catechesis efforts into the issue(s)…but…it is a whole different problem (a monumental one) for a Catholic to say that the Catholic Church’s teaching(s) on a faith and/or morals issue(s) is WRONG!..or in ERROR!

Here is Our Lord Jesus’ own words: (1) to** Peter** and again (2) to the Seventy-two Disciples and (3) to the Eleven Apostles…as He them commanded:
I don’t think Our Lord Jesus is confused or saying…to the apostles or the faithful just “…have a nice day…”. He sounds rather serious and urgent about what he is doing and what he wants done by His Church and by His faithful.
Second, to me there is only one “bottom line” reason…a simple one…to be a Catholic…because you really believe Catholicism its TRUE…that all it teaches/professes (the whole of all of its doctrines and dogmas…on faith and morals…the teachings of the Magisterium/Catechism)…are ALL TRUE.

Third, once you start picking and choosing what you will/will not believe/accept…you are really doing something very profound…you become in (Prof. Peter Kreeft’s words)…the Catholic who says: Fourth, if you are comfortable as a Catholic with that “theology”…why would you even want to do the “heavy lifting” that it takes to be a Catholic…and I do mean “heavy lifting”…because the Catholic Church is not the Church for the faint hearted believer, the thin skinned person in the pew, or self-styled individual who wants the song…“I did it my way”…played at his/her funeral!

The late Venerable Pope John Paul II, the Great, said in Redemptoris Missio, his 1990 encyclical on Christian mission that: "The Church proposes; she imposes nothing" (emphasis in original).
Now here is the “catch”…what She (the Catholic Church) proposes…in faith and morals is …always and only…The Truth…and (as JP-II and B-XVI always said/say)…Truth is not something…it is someone… a person…Our Lord Jesus Christ!
For your consideration…hope this is somewhat helpful.
Pax Christi

Nicely done. THANK YOU!

I really liked "Oh excuse me your sitting in MY CHAIR! Excellent POINT!

 

[ac_claire]

But…a question…do you have to believe EVERYTHING of the Catholic Faith? As some people point out…the CC says that if someone is baptized Catholic they remain Catholic. So it does seem like a catch 20/2 no?

I think we have to acknowledge that people are in different places with regards to their faith. For example, I haven’t been to RCIA…so there are a lot of things that I’m a little fuzzy on…like Mary (devotion to). Part of that might be my background…a loving mother and father…the concept escapes me. So for now I put it on the back burner and am on the fence…I neither believe it nor do I not believe it. I am waiting for explanations in RCIA that can help move me off the fence.

So…what does that make me?

I don’t know where it’s written or who’d say that you’re not Catholic, because of what you’re going through. You have some doubts, or some things you’re not 100% on. You do need to try and accept all of the teachings of the Church though. Think of it this way-- if you actively reject even one doctrine, then you’re saying that the Church is either deceived or is being dishonest with us about that issue. Either one of those presuppositions will eventually destroy the foundation of your faith. Either all at once or it’ll chip away at it. I’ve personally seen this happen several times, with friends of mine who eventually left the Church. The crack in the foundation that started it all, with all of them, was questioning the authority of the Church to teach infallibly on matters of faith and morals.

Anyhow…I’ve been sorta where I imagine you are. I especially had issues with some of the Marian dogmas when I first “reverted” back to the Church. What I hope for you is that you can get to a place where you can accept what the Church says about any issue you’re shaky on, even if you can’t understand it. You’re not required to understand it, just to believe that it is- somehow- true because the Church says it is.

In my case, once I’d done that, a more solid “understanding” of the dogmas that had confused me came to me. It was like a gift of faith.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I don’t know where it’s written or who’d say that you’re not Catholic, because of what you’re going through. You have some doubts, or some things you’re not 100% on. You do need to try and accept all of the teachings of the Church though. Think of it this way-- if you actively reject even one doctrine, then you’re saying that the Church is either deceived or is being dishonest with us about that issue. Either one of those presuppositions will eventually destroy the foundation of your faith. Either all at once or it’ll chip away at it. I’ve personally seen this happen several times, with friends of mine who eventually left the Church. The crack in the foundation that started it all, with all of them, was questioning the authority of the Church to teach infallibly on matters of faith and morals.

Anyhow…I’ve been sorta where I imagine you are. I especially had issues with some of the Marian dogmas when I first “reverted” back to the Church. What I hope for you is that you can get to a place where you can accept what the Church says about any issue you’re shaky on, even if you can’t understand it. You’re not required to understand it, just to believe that it is- somehow- true because the Church says it is.

In my case, once I’d done that, a more solid “understanding” of the dogmas that had confused me came to me. It was like a gift of faith.

Fair enough…of course I don’t think I even know all that the Church teaches…it’s not even that I disagree with it…I just don’t know. And that all takes time…to learn, to pray about, and to move into that place of surrender. Which is where some people might be. Sure I’m reading the Catechism…but have you seen how thick that thing is? It’s not built for speed reading either

 

[Deb_H]

Fair enough…of course I don’t think I even know all that the Church teaches…it’s not even that I disagree with it…I just don’t know. And that all takes time…to learn, to pray about, and to move into that place of surrender. Which is where some people might be. Sure I’m reading the Catechism…but have you seen how thick that thing is? It’s not built for speed reading either

I love the way you worded that … moving in to a place of surrender … yup … thats it . thank you

 

[SimonDodd]

As much as I admire the orthodoxy of some of the above posters, orthodoxy was not the point in question. The question was “Where’s the love?” The OP’s statements made it clear he is at least slightly uncomfortable with the way Catholics have been treating each other.

JerryS answered this already. Love isn’t always about comfort. It’s rarely a comfortable situation to be told that you’re wrong, yet we don’t love an alcoholic by saying “Sure, have another!” I would bet that interventions are “at least slightly uncomfortable”; Nevertheless, they are done in love.

To reject the teaching authority of the Church is to become, by definition, a protestant. For those who see that as a problem, love counsels correction, not latitudinarianism.

 

[wisdomseeker]

As shown in some of the above posts that someone MUST believe 100% of what the church says to be a “Catholic”.
Yet that is NOT taught in many RCIA, CCD, etc For that matter not much doctrine is taught at all, but are expected to blindly believe whatever the church says… because it’s what the church says.
So we are letting new people in the church then via RCIA without making them sign or verbally agree to follow and believe all church teachings? Seems pretty straight forward to me… BUT that’s not what is done.

you mean there is no profession of faith. i remember during confirmation the priest asks, do you believe all that the CC teaches? i said, yes.
didnt you go through this?

 

[quiet52]

Almost every year an RCIA participant asks if Catholics who disagree with one or more teachings are still Catholic … like “What about Catholics who believe birth control is okay?” My answer is always short and simple: “They are still Catholic, but they are unfaithful Catholics.”

 

[PJM]

=Dave in Dallas;6931359]I (and some others I know) have been told by numerous people on here that we’re not really Catholics or are bad Catholics at the very least.

If I don’t believe 100% of what the Church teaches – and I am referring to items like IC & Papal Infalibility… then I am not even really Catholic… forbid that anyone find out what a terrible sinner I am!

I believe that there is no perfect church… However that’s not to say that there’s not a historical church or a church that’s better than another…

Dave interestering that you find this humerous. God certainly does not.

What’s your view of the Bible?

And clarify for dummy me what “IC” is?

While you remain a “catholic” in name, nevertherless you are an uninformed and non-practicing Catholic. Eternity is a LONG time. You my wish to at least attempt to learn and debate the issues you choose not to accept.

God will JUDGE each of us NOT on what we beleive, but what He has made POSSIBLE [including opportunities such as I am ofering you now] for us to beleive. Not simply what we know; but what we COULD know, SHOULD know.

Think and pray about it friend.