Which biblical stories can a Catholic not accept as literal?

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PNEUMA said:
Would Jesus do something like that ? No, he had another understanding of God, that he by the way knew very well.
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First of all, Jesus is God. Second of all, to suggest the God of the OT is different from the God of the NT is heresy. You sound like a Marcionist.
 
James248 said:
First of all, Jesus is God. Second of all, to suggest the God of the OT is different from the God of the NT is heresy. You sound like a Marcionist.
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The OT writers didn’t know God, as well as Jesus did. They got the wrong picture of God and several other things.
 
PNEUMA said:
The OT writers didn’t know God, as well as Jesus did. They got the wrong picture of God and several other things.
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May I offer a suggestion.

The writer of the first three amazing chapters of Sacred Scripture was able to communicate God’s truth about the dawn of human history.
 
grannymh said:
May I offer a suggestion.

The writer of the first three amazing chapters of Sacred Scripture was able to communicate God’s truth about the dawn of human history.
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In a highly symbolic way, yes. Cause there was no literal garden of paradise. The humans were with God, but lost contact with or died to God. That’s what the writer is saying.
 
PNEUMA said:
The OT writers didn’t know God, as well as Jesus did. They got the wrong picture of God and several other things.
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No, they had an incomplete picture of God. If Christ is the fullness of revelation, then the OT does not express the fullness of revelation, but it is still an inseparable part of the whole.
It’s not correct to say “wrong” picture (although it’s easy to see where language has it’s limitations here in light of the “dark passages” of the OT).
 
James248 said:
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God did command Joshua to completely exterminate the Canaanites, as He told Saul to wipe out the Amalekites. Because of Saul’s disobedience, Haman was able to make the decree to wipe out the Jews in Shushan.
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Many Catholics Scripture scholars (most?) do not accept this fundamentalist-leaning interpretation of these passages. P Benedict himself cautions us to read these in light of the culture and way of understanding God which the ancient peoples had. P Benedict in Verbum Domini exhorts us to always look to Christ as the ultimate hermenutical key to Scripture. When we see Christ, we see the full revelation of God, and we know how He is. Some of these interpretations run afoul of God’s revealed will in Christ, and his way of “treating” human beings.

Nonetheless, they are still literal, and have God’s inspired message to convey. They cannot be disregarded even if they are read with a spiritual sense.
 
PNEUMA said:
In a highly symbolic way, yes. Cause there was no literal garden of paradise. The humans were with God, but lost contact with or died to God. That’s what the writer is saying.
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No literal paradise is correct, because Paradise is often used to explain the Beatific Vision. However, because Adam is in the State of Original Holiness, we can understand “paradise.” Genesis 1: 27.

Please note that a blood and guts human needs food. Genesis 2: 15
 
goout said:
Many Catholics Scripture scholars (most?) do not accept this fundamentalist-leaning interpretation of these passages. P Benedict himself cautions us to read these in light of the culture and way of understanding God which the ancient peoples had. P Benedict in Verbum Domini exhorts us to always look to Christ as the ultimate hermenutical key to Scripture. When we see Christ, we see the full revelation of God, and we know how He is. Some of these interpretations run afoul of God’s revealed will in Christ, and his way of “treating” human beings.

Nonetheless, they are still literal, and have God’s inspired message to convey. They cannot be disregarded even if they are read with a spiritual sense.
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Well they’re wrong.
 
James248 said:
Allegorizing everything doesn’t help or do justice to the text. This is what Bishop Barron is doing. Those who do this don’t get that the context is clearly historical.

Check this link.

unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2009/02/genocide-of-joshua-part-1.html?m=1
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He’s not “allegorizing everything”. 🤷
And he’s a well respected teacher, and a bishop. I think I would take what he says with a little less flippancy.

And who wrote the article you referenced? It seems it’s unattributed.
The article misunderstands what inspiration is. It dismisses spiritual senses of scripture as modernist.
Who wrote it?
 
goout said:
He’s not “allegorizing everything”. 🤷
And he’s a well respected teacher, and a bishop. I think I would take what he says with a little less flippancy.

And who wrote the article you referenced? It seems it’s unattributed.
The article misunderstands what inspiration is. It dismisses spiritual senses of scripture as modernist.
Who wrote it?
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Nope. Yours and Pnuema’s claims that the OT writer had a bad understanding of God is wrong. God actually commanded the deaths of the Canaanites under herem warfare.

The Canaanites weren’t innocent. Their culture was abbhorent to God and perverse. So instead of asking “How can a loving God command the extermination of a people?” ask “How innocent were the Canaanites?”

The story of Joshua is a story of God blessing those who fear Him and punishing those who scorn Him. It is a warning to those who laud God’s Mercy and ignore His Justice.
 
James248 said:
Nope. Yours and Pnuema’s claims that the OT writer had a bad understanding of God is wrong. God actually commanded the deaths of the Canaanites under herem warfare.

The Canaanites weren’t innocent. Their culture was abbhorent to God and perverse. So instead of asking “How can a loving God command the extermination of a people?” ask “How innocent were the Canaanites?”

The story of Joshua is a story of God blessing those who fear Him and punishing those who scorn Him. It is a warning to those who laud God’s Mercy and ignore His Justice.
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Can you give us the author of your link?

What you say above is about half true and the line of thought is not in line with mainstream Catholic Scripture interpretation. Not just modern thought, but going back all the way to Origen, as referenced by Bp Barron.

Catholic Scripture interpretation is never an individualist thing. It’s always read in the context of the whole, which includes the Church.
 
goout said:
Can you give us the author of your link?

What you say above is about half true and the line of thought is not in line with mainstream Catholic Scripture interpretation. Not just modern thought, but going back all the way to Origen, as referenced by Bp Barron.

Catholic Scripture interpretation is never an individualist thing. It’s always read in the context of the whole, which includes the Church.
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Origen was wrong in many things. He had thoughts of the Trinity being hierarchical and taught salvation for the devil.
 
James248 said:
Origen was wrong in many things. He had thoughts of the Trinity being hierarchical and taught salvation for the devil.
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What’s your point? That Origen was a human being? Can you address the topic?

Who wrote the link you referenced as authoritative?
 
goout said:
What’s your point? That Origen was a human being? Can you address the topic?

Who wrote the link you referenced as authoritative?
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My point is that using Origen is faulty. The fact that God commanded the Israelites to devote their cities to the LORD under “herem” warfare remains. God is God. If He wants to order someone to kill another, he can do it.
 
James248 said:
My point is that using Origen is faulty. The fact that God commanded the Israelites to devote their cities to the LORD under “herem” warfare remains. God is God. If He wants to order someone to kill another, he can do it.
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You’re entitled to your interpretive opinion. Origen’s and Bp Barron are faulty according to who? Don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone but you say that Origen or Bp Barron have faulty interpretations of this passage.

Can you see the difference between capability and revealed nature? That fact that a being has the power and ability to do something does not mean it’s in his revealed nature.
If you listened to Bp Barron’s talk, the scrolls are read through the lens of Christ as the lamb slain.

As long as we are taken the bible in literalist fashion, do you believe the world was created in 6 days, and there is a dome over the skies?

And who wrote the article you referenced. That is the only thing you have presented as backup for your position and you seem to now be avoiding it.
Scripture is always interpreted in a community, not as individuals.
 
goout said:
You’re entitled to your interpretive opinion. Origen’s and Bp Barron are faulty according to who? Don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone but you say that Origen or Bp Barron have faulty interpretations of this passage.

Can you see the difference between capability and revealed nature? That fact that a being has the power and ability to do something does not mean it’s in his revealed nature.
If you listened to Bp Barron’s talk, the scrolls are read through the lens of Christ as the lamb slain.

As long as we are taken the bible in literalist fashion, do you believe the world was created in 6 days, and there is a dome over the skies?

And who wrote the article you referenced. That is the only thing you have presented as backup for your position and you seem to now be avoiding it.
Scripture is always interpreted in a community, not as individuals.
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The Book of Joshua is part of Israel’s history. This is clearly not an individual interpretation I came up with on my own.

From this link: www.agapebiblestudy.com/Joshua/Joshua_Lesson_3.htm
Joshua 6:17-21 ~ Joshua places Jericho under the Curse of Destruction (Herem)
17 The city and everyone in it must be devoted to Yahweh under the curse of destruction [herem]; the life of Rahab the prostitute alone must be spared, with all those with her in her house, since she hid the messengers we sent. 18 But beware of the curse of destruction, yourselves, for fear that, moved by greed, you take something lying under the curse; that would put the camp of Israel under the same curse and bring disaster on it. 19 All the silver and all the gold, everything made of bronze or iron, will be consecrated to Yahweh and put in his treasury.’ 20 The people raised the war cry, the trumpets sounded [Then when the trumpets sounded, the people raised the war cry]. When the people heard the sound of the trumpet, they raised a mighty war cry, and the wall collapsed then and there [the wall fell under it]. At once the people stormed the city, each man going straight forward; and they captured the city. 21 They enforced the curse of destruction [herem] on everyone in the city: men and women, young and old, including the oxen, the sheep and the donkeys, slaughtering them all.
…] = literal translation (IBHE, vol. I, page 571).

On the first six days, the priests blew the horns constantly and the warriors marched one circuit around the city (verse 8). On the seventh day, the horns are silent after the seventh circuit of the city. Then, as soon as the priests made a prolonged blast on the horns, Joshua gave an explicit signal to raise the war cry (see verses 16 and 20), and the walls fell down.

Question: Why is Jericho placed under the curse of destruction [herem]? See Gen 15:16; Lev 27:28-29.
Answer: This is a holy war in which the Israelites are God’s instruments of divine justice in punishing the Amorites of Jericho for crimes against humanity. Therefore, the Israelites cannot profit in any way from the deaths of the enemy, and the lives of the inhabitants and all material goods are forfeited to Yahweh.

Question: Does this mean those souls are lost for all eternity? See Lk 16:19-31; 1 Pt 3:18-19; 4:6; CCC 633.
Answer: Certainly not. All souls went to Sheol/Hades. Those who were righteous waited with Father Abraham; those who were sinners received a purifying punishment in atonement for their sins. All had the opportunity to hear Jesus preach the Gospel of salvation when He descended to the abode of the dead after His death on the Cross. Those who believe in Christ and embraced the gift of eternal salvation were led by Jesus into the opened gates of heaven.

Question: What was to be destroyed and what was to be saved?
Answer: All life "men, women, children and all livestock were to be killed, their lives forfeited as tribute to Yahweh. Everything else was to be burned, including textiles and foodstuffs. The exception was anything made of gold, silver, brass, or iron; those items were to be given to the Sanctuary of Yahweh.

Question: What two warnings does Joshua give the Israelite warriors in verses 17b and 18?
Answer:

Rahab and her family must be protected because of the oath sworn by the two spies that Israel is obligated to enforce.
If they violate the curse of destruction on the city of Jericho, they will endanger the entire Israelite camp.
The wall did not fall inward "it fell outward “under itself” so that the Israelites had a level assent, going straight forward into the city.
 
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