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Lampo
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Would he be a Missouri Synod Lutheran? Wisconsin Synod? ELCA? All of them?
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Genesis315
Guest
Which is the most conservative and anti-Catholic? That’s the one he would join.
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Contarini
Guest
I don’t think questions like that can be answered. For all we know, if Luther came back today he would smite his breast and become Catholic. Or he might run into some of the Orthodox who are sympathetic with positive aspects of Protestantism, and decide they had the answer. Or he might found his own apocalyptic sect. . . .
It’s certainly fair to say that the LCMS is closer to the historic, confessional teachings of Lutheranism than the ELCA. Those teachings were themselves not identical with Luther’s original ideas, though. I don’t really have a handle on the differences between Missouri and Wisconsin–I have had no contact with practicing members of the WELS.
Edwin
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Steadfast
Guest
I agree with Edwin’s assessment.
Luther would have had some difficulties with the “evangelicalization” of LCMS Lutheranism; their effective jettisoning of confession and their lack of appreciation for the virgin, but, by and large, he would probably be in line with them.
He would probably have some problems with their statements on biblical inerrancy but once it was explained to him why they felt the need to make them; i.e. what the alternative was, I think he would have understood.
Luther would have had some difficulties with the “evangelicalization” of LCMS Lutheranism; their effective jettisoning of confession and their lack of appreciation for the virgin, but, by and large, he would probably be in line with them.
He would probably have some problems with their statements on biblical inerrancy but once it was explained to him why they felt the need to make them; i.e. what the alternative was, I think he would have understood.
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Contarini
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Of course, I would like to think that if Luther came back today Pope Benedict would invite him over for dinner (as he did to the more heretical–IMHO–Hans Kung), give him a copy of Introduction to Christianity (which addresses most of Luther’s valid concerns), and show him gently the errors of his ways.
But that’s a daydream. . . . not the Pope’s side of it, but Luther’s. Luther was a very stubborn man and it would take a lot to win him over–probably a miracle of grace.
That is assuming that the Luther who came back was the 1546 Luther. If the Luther of 1517 or even maybe 1521 came back I think Pope Benedict would stand a good chance of persuading him.
Edwin
But that’s a daydream. . . . not the Pope’s side of it, but Luther’s. Luther was a very stubborn man and it would take a lot to win him over–probably a miracle of grace.
That is assuming that the Luther who came back was the 1546 Luther. If the Luther of 1517 or even maybe 1521 came back I think Pope Benedict would stand a good chance of persuading him.
Edwin
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Genesis315
Guest
Nah, just a good laxitive.
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JLSacred
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I’m sure the Luther would be comfortable with the Catholic Church of today. In fact, he might think it’s too liberal. He’d be totally shocked by many changes in the world and the church.
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The_Truthinator
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Martin Luther would more than likely be appalled still at many of the Catholic Church’s dogma, but also at certain Protestant and Lutheran branches. He’d probably have a favorite, but who that’d be, I don’t know.
Maybe when they (whoever they are) get to Heaven, Luther will turn to God and say, “Those are the seeds I planted–and the ones you grew, remember?”
(Yes, I believe Luther was most likely saved, and I’m very optimistic about John Paul II, as well. Although Leo is damned, of that I feel certain.)
Maybe when they (whoever they are) get to Heaven, Luther will turn to God and say, “Those are the seeds I planted–and the ones you grew, remember?”
(Yes, I believe Luther was most likely saved, and I’m very optimistic about John Paul II, as well. Although Leo is damned, of that I feel certain.)
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Steadfast
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Wow, I am glad you’re not God.
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Contarini
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Well, neither of these things are evident at Concordia Seminary in Fort Wayne (from which I have overdue books, as this thread has reminded me). They have times of confession prominently posted on the outside of their chapel, and when I introduced myself to a professor there and told him that I taught at the nearby evangelical college, his first question was: “Are you a fundamentalist?” Hardly evidence of “evangelicalization” (since my college is in fact not fundamentalist but a fairly moderate, generic evangelical institution).
Edwin
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Steadfast
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Right now, in the LCMS, there is a rift between the seminaries with the one in St. Louis being accused of “unionism” and compromise and with the one in Ft. Wayne being accused of crypto-romanism.
I know some LCMS churches have confession but they’re like hen’s teeth in the larger scheme.
But still, I guess it’s better than the Piskies.
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Mary3
Guest
That’s my first reaction to this question. Luther has spent the last 500 years being enlightened. If he came back today, it would be a more humble, chastened Luther.
I like to envision him coming back as a new reformer, and working hard to reform us again, but this time working against those who dissent from orthodox Catholicism. The reformed Luther would be on a mission to reunite the Church having been shown his errors, and having been cleansed of his pride and arrogance.
It’s as good a fantasy as any…
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francesco920
Guest
Perhaps if Luther were to come back today he’d be shocked and dismayed by how his actions have led to such disunity among Christians, especially among Protestants? Perhaps he’d be dismayed that the dominant force of Protestantism today, Evangelicalism, denies the necessity of baptism for salvation among other things? And perhaps he’d repent when he saw what his errors have done and return to the Catholic Church?
Or, perhaps he’d do none of those things. I don’t know; I’ve never met the man myself.
Or, perhaps he’d do none of those things. I don’t know; I’ve never met the man myself.
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StevenFrancis
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None of them. I believe he would have come to abandon sola scriptura, and would have reconciled with Rome. They, did, over time, after all institute a great number of his changes.
It’s my understanding that Luther did not want to split from the Catholic Church anyway. He wanted some changes made, and he had many issues with the Pope at the time. Many of those changes ended up happening, and I think he’d find today’s papacy just fine. My sense is that he would have long ago reconciled with The Church, and would be a Catholic. I’m not completely sure he’d even understand the modern Lutheran Church. If he did look at one of them at all, I suppose it would be the one that is oldest and closest to both the Catholic Church, and his ideas. He loved the liturgy, the Eucharist (and the other sacraments), Mary, the Saints etc. Much of which is very subdued and Downplayed in the modern Lutheran Church.
So which Lutheran church would Martin agree with today?? The Holy Catholic Church.
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The_Truthinator
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Me too!
Sorry about that …
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gcnuss
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Speaking from one Lutheran perspective, I think that Luther might well be at the forefront of today’s ecumenical discussions between Lutherans and Catholics. If one takes that point of view, he would be most likely to agree with the ELCA, the one (out of three) major US Lutheran body that does not espouse anti-Catholicism and that encourages ecumenical dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church.
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Contarini
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That doesn’t surprise me given my experience of them! They’re really a blessing to have in the area–they have a wonderful library with an excellent collection of patristic texts in particular (they’re actually stronger on the Fathers than on the Reformation on the whole!).
Edwin
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LutheranDK
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I would be interested in knowing what grievance points of Luther’s the Catholic church later adopted?
I didn’t know.On another note, I think Luther would be a Lutheran
D), but which “branch” of the Lutheran church is something which I do not know. Certainly none of the “Lutheran” state churches, that’s for bleeding sure. He’d quite possibly have a heart attack when he found out what these “churches” are saying in his name.From what I know of the LCMS, I think that one would be a likely candidate.
The ELCA, I consider much like I consider the “Lutheran” state churches, but I’ve never heard about this “WELS”?
One thing I DO believe I’m rather sure of is that Luther would not return to Catholicism. If you read Luther’s writings, it is clear that there are certain dogmas he will not abandon, no matter the cost, and among these are the Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide-doctrines.
(if anyone is interested in what the man we are discussing actually wrote, they can be read at www.lutherdansk.dk. In Danish, but if you scroll down, some of his work will emerge in English)
In any case, this discussion is academic, because like the rest of the dead, Luther is no more, and will only become alive, conscient, again on the Last Day
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Cat
Guest
Sorry to be a negative nelly, but from what I have read of Martin Luther, I think he would grouch for a few years about every denomination, then start a totally new denomination that, this time, got EVERYTHING correct!
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