Which "Christ" did Islam come into contact with?

[scapularkid8]

The Catholic/Jewish Christ or the Agnostic Christ? How was their interpretation of Christ formed.

(I am NOT trying to start an argument on the validity of Islam. We all have our opinions of it. I am merely asking this to understand Islams interpretation of the Messiah and how it came about.)

 

[Kadaveri]

Islam’s interpretation of ‘Christ’ is almost identical to the orthodox Jewish one, so that’s where it comes from.

 

[scapularkid8]

But Orthodox Judaism is nothing like the Judaism of the time of Jesus. Most of the major philosophies of O. Judaism came about AFTER Islam was formed…that dosen’t seem like a good comparison.

Kinda like saying “I learned how to read from my younger brother.” Somethings wrong there!

 

[Kadaveri]

Not really, since firstly we believe Islam is from God not from the Jews, and the fact that we have the same understanding is down to a mutual source. Or are you arguing that Orthodox Judaism got its interpretation of the Messiah from Islam? Quite an original theory, not one I’d favour however, since we’re not even talking about Jewish philosophy here we’re talking about prophecy, most of which can be found in the Tanakh, which was canonised centuries before Islam.

 

[exoflare]

Islam’s interpretation of ‘Christ’ is almost identical to the orthodox Jewish one, so that’s where it comes from.

Well the Jews don’t believe there was anything special about “Christ” at all. To them Jesus was no more than a heretic. Is this really a good comparison to make?

 

[Kadaveri]

Sorry I should have been more clear. What I meant was Judaism and Islam have an almost identical understanding of *what *‘the Messiah’ is; disregarding the fact that the Jews don’t believe he has appeared yet whereas Muslims identify him with Jesus (as).

 

[QuietTimes]

I also wanted to point out that the “Christ” that Islam came into contact with was from some heretical christians that really did not have a full understanding of who Christ really was. And that was the interpretation that muslims fall under today.

 

[Kadaveri]

Sorry I should have been more clear. What I meant was Judaism and Islam have an almost identical understanding of what ‘the Messiah’ is; disregarding the fact that the Jews don’t believe he has appeared yet whereas Muslims identify him with Jesus (as).

And Islam’s differing view on who Christ is has nothing to do with heretical Christians, QuietTimes; we simply don’t believe that he was divine.

 

[exoflare]

The Jews believed (still believe) that the Messiah will be a warrior or political figure of some sort, but in any case that his mission would be to restore the geographical nation of Israel to worldly power. How is this even close to what Muslims believe Jesus to be, much less what he actually was??

 

[Kadaveri]

Because, that’s what we believe Jesus (as) will do in his second coming.

 

[QuietTimes]

Then who is Waraqa? He was familiar with the Gospels and he affirmed muhhamed of his visions. You may deny that he was Christian but the a 9th century biographer of muhhamed, Ibn Hisham speaks of him in the is way of Waraqa…
“It has been said about the priest Waraqa that he was of the religion of Moses then of the religion of Esa [Jesus], may peace be upon them.”
Thats what I meant but of course you are free to deny this.

 

[exoflare]

Because, that’s what we believe Jesus (as) will do in his second coming.

I find that hard to believe… Muslims flat-out HATE the political state of Israel, as it is right now; I don’t think they would be too keen on the notion that one of their prophets will endow that nation (and Judaism itself) with unparalleled world power…

 

[Kadaveri]

I’m not denying it, but it’s rather outlandish to claim he is the man who taught Muhammad (saaw) everything about Jesus (as) seeing as they only met twice and Waraqa died a few days after that, years before Jesus (as) was even ever mentioned in the Qur’an.

And there’s also no evidence that Waraqa was a heretical Christian, at least not as far as rejecting the Nicene Creed.

 

[Kadaveri]

I know you may find it difficult to believe Exo, that’s perfectly understandable infact considering the standard Muslim view towards the modern state of Israel. But it doesn’t negate the fact that Muhammad (saaw) *did *make prophecies saying the Jews would return to Jerusalem towards the last days. Seeing how many of prophecies he made are coming true in these times, I don’t see how what he was referring to could be anything else than Israel as it exists today, regardless of how certain Arab nationalists prefer to ignore this.

And I’m not denying it QuietTimes, but it’s rather outlandish to claim he is the man who taught Muhammad (saaw) everything about Jesus (as) seeing as they only met twice and Waraqa died a few days after that, years before Jesus (as) was even ever mentioned in the Qur’an.

And there’s also no evidence that Waraqa was a heretical Christian, at least not as far as rejecting the Nicene Creed.

 

[QuietTimes]

Waraqa was a Nestorian.
He affirmed the visions.
muhhamed held many of their views.

 

[Kadaveri]

Nestorianism’s view of the nature of Jesus (as) isn’t remotely like that of Islam’s though, is it?

 

[Booklover]

I/ QuietTimes, but it’s rather outlandish to claim he is the man who taught Muhammad (saaw) everything about Jesus (as) seeing as they only met twice and Waraqa died a few days after that, years before Jesus (as) was even ever mentioned in the Qur’an.

And there’s also no evidence that Waraqa was a heretical Christian, at least not as far as rejecting the Nicene Creed.

How do you actually know that Muhammad met Waraqa only a couple of times?

How come Muhammad’s “revelations” died out after Waraqa’s death?? Muslims just don’t want to admit that Muhammad got many of his ideas from him.

Vickie

 

[QuietTimes]

Nestorianism’s view of the nature of Jesus (as) isn’t remotely like that of Islam’s though, is it?

You are right they hold very different beliefs, but none the less they both hold wrong views of Christ.

 

[Kadaveri]

How do you actually know that Muhammad met Waraqa only a couple of times?

There are Ahadith which say so. They first met each other outside the Kaba many years before Muhammad (saaw) received revelation, where Waraqa kissed Muhammad’s head, the next time they met was after Gabriel spoke to Muhammad (saaw) in the cave, and Waraqa died soon after.

How come Muhammad’s “revelations” died out after Waraqa’s death?? Muslims just don’t want to admit that Muhammad got many of his ideas from him.

I think you’ve got your chronology quite confused, Muhammad’s revelations didn’t die out after Waraqa’s death, they’d only just begun. The only verses that had been revealed at this time were the first five verses of Sura Al-Alaq (which has nothing to do with Jesus (as)).

QuietTimes:

You are right they hold very different beliefs, but none the less they both hold wrong views of Christ.

Because they both have differing views of Christ to Catholicism is hardly a good argument to claim one influenced the other, especially since as you note they are themselves very different.

 

[exoflare]

I know you may find it difficult to believe Exo, that’s perfectly understandable infact considering the standard Muslim view towards the modern state of Israel. But it doesn’t negate the fact that Muhammad (saaw) *did *make prophecies saying the Jews would return to Jerusalem towards the last days. Seeing how many of prophecies he made are coming true in these times, I don’t see how what he was referring to could be anything else than Israel as it exists today, regardless of how certain Arab nationalists prefer to ignore this.

Where is this prophecy you speak of about Israel? Please let me know if you could.

Anyway, I’m not even talking about specifically Arab nationalists here… in my experience it’s become pretty apparent that the vast majority of Muslims already have some kind of strong hatred toward the nation of Israel (usually even Jews in general, but especially toward Israel!)

The other thing is, I thought that Muslims already believed that the Jews were deprived of their status as the “chosen nation” of God so that it was later given to the Arabs? Wasn’t completely sure of this, but that was my impression.