Which Christian denominations support Gay Marriage?

[OneTrueCathApos]

Jimmy B,

I read an interesting wiki article about Gay Bishops. It notes one in Catholic history that installed his lover as Bishop of Orleans (iirc) and that the Pope ignored it. It also notes Cardinal Spellman’s alleged homosexuality and alleged relationship. In addition, we need not go into the many media reports of homosexual relationships among Roman Catholic clergy. In fact, I think I even recall EWTN mentioning the concern the church had about homosexuality in the seminaries. The Wiki article mentions other modern Roman Catholic Bishops who are gay. It also links another Wiki article with an estimate of gay Roman Catholic priests at around 33%.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_bishops

I think the point is that even if the Roman Catholic Church does not officially support gay marriage there has been what some allege as an existent gay sub culture and one that has gone on for some centuries. Robert Weakland of course being the latest Catholic Bishop to come out of the closet. He has written his autobiography.

I am certainly not implying that you (Jimmy) have been smug but others have sometimes pointed the finger at sexuality issues within other denominations when the Roman Catholic Church itself has struggled at all levels with the same issues. Human nature and sin I suppose.

Do you not understand that the Catholic church has the lowest molestation rate of all Christians and non-Christians alike? Or do you just think it is a “Catholic” thing…the Catholic church has priests and bishops loyal to Jesus Christ and it’s Magesterium, to be celibate. They give their whole lives up and sacrifice their human yearnings for Christ, while other denominations could care less about this.

 

[Justy90]

Do you not understand that the Catholic church has the lowest molestation rate of all Christians and non-Christians alike? Or do you just think it is a “Catholic” thing…the Catholic church has priests and bishops loyal to Jesus Christ and it’s Magesterium, to be celibate. They give their whole lives up and sacrifice their human yearnings for Christ, while other denominations could care less about this.

That just doesn’t seem to add up. I have never heard of the Methodist child sex abuse scandal or the Jehovah’s Witness criminal sexual conduct debacle. The lowest child molestation rate in terms of percentages or what?? As of early in 2008, there were 107 Convicted Catholic clergy members of crimainal sexual conduct against minor boys. There is certainly more as of now. How does that qualify as lowest?

 

[RevDrNorth]

Do you not understand that the Catholic church has the lowest molestation rate of all Christians and non-Christians alike? Or do you just think it is a “Catholic” thing…the Catholic church has priests and bishops loyal to Jesus Christ and it’s Magesterium, to be celibate. They give their whole lives up and sacrifice their human yearnings for Christ, while other denominations could care less about this.

We are not talking specifically about molestation. In any case, you throw something (claim that the RCC has the lowest molestation rate) out without any fact to back up your statement. I recall Fr. Groeschel noting that the incidents of molestation were statistically no higher than the population at large (he gave percentages). This is most certainly an issue in many denominations.

The Wiki article is simply noting a number of homosexual Bishops within the Catholic Church ranging from the 11 th century where the one Bishop set his lover up as Bishop of Orleans and this was ignored by two Popes to Cardinal Spellmen’s alleged homsexuality and relationship to more current examples in the US and abroad. Bishop Weakland being probably the latest (he came out of the closet and wrote a biography).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_bishops

As I noted above, IIRC EWTN has spoke about concern over the gay subculture within catholic seminaries. The Wiki article links to another that estimates gay clergy as high as 33%. I suspect that the ability to remain single when being gay was perceived more negatively in society led to a higher percentage of gay clergy in the Catholic Church than other denominations. Makes logical sense.

The point is that we need to be careful when pointing fingers at other denominations in regard to sexuality issues and holding one church up as a bastion of orthodox sexuality when there has existed, as noted in the Wik articles, a gay subculture within it for some time that extends from the hierarchy on down. I think all churches need to adhere to biblical teaching on sexuality but this cannot simply be winked at. This is where I think Benedict is working to take control of the issue within the seminaries, etc. The Legionaries (worldwide conservative Catholic religious order) debacle is just another unfortunate situation that went on too long and was ignored (its leader Fr. Marcel had long been accused of sexual impropriety with seminarians and drug use). Fr. marcel was apparently bi sexual as he was discovered to have fathered a child who he was supporting. Pope Benedict removed him and he was not buired in the vatican where it had been planned but it Mexico.

*Note: There are many…many faithful Legionaries and our hearts have to go out to them. I saw two priests interviewed on EWTN with Raymond A. They were obviously devastated to have had a man they revered brought down in scandal and the Church acknowledging it. The Legionaries are a very conservative and loyal religious order and looking to their future. Keep them in prayer.

 

[1holycatholic]

That just doesn’t seem to add up. I have never heard of the Methodist child sex abuse scandal or the Jehovah’s Witness criminal sexual conduct debacle. The lowest child molestation rate in terms of percentages or what?? As of early in 2008, there were 107 Convicted Catholic clergy members of crimainal sexual conduct against minor boys. There is certainly more as of now. How does that qualify as lowest?

• 46 Methodist Ministers
• 140 Anglican/Episcopalian Ministers
• Visalia, CA – A 38-year-old Visalia man who was a leader in a local Jehovah’s Witness congregation may face up to 16 years in prison on charges of sexually molesting a 12-year-old congregation member. Louis Anguiano served until last year as an elder at the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah’s Witnesses at 5310 Caldwell Ave. He is accused of continuous sexual abuse, over a two-year period, of a girl who attended the same congregation. (The Fresno Bee, January 30, 2003)
  Visalian who was a Jehovah’s Witness leader accused by girl, 12.
• New Bedford, MA. An Attleboro Jehovah’s Witnesses minister, Ralph Heroux, 74, yesterday pleaded not guilty to charges of two counts of rape of a child and two counts of indecent assault and battery on a child under 14. (The Standard Times, Jan. 2, 2003)
  Minister charged with child rape
• MANHATTAN, KS. – A judge ruled Thursday that a man who was allegedly molested years ago by a Manhattan minister will be allowed to testify at the minister’s trial, where he will face charges that he molested a teen-age boy.

Brian N. Savage, of Manhattan, was bound over for trial in July. He faces two counts of aggravated criminal sodomy, two counts of criminal sodomy, two counts of aggravated indecent solicitation of a child and one count of aggravated indecent liberties with a child.

According to court records, Savage, 44, met the then-13-year-old victim at the Seventh Day Adventist church in Manhattan where Savage was a pastor and the victim attended. Savage took on a fatherly role, according to court documents. After a relationship developed, Savage began engaging in sexual acts with the boy, the records say. In at least one instance, Savage gave the boy $100 for oral sex. Some of the molestation took place at the church. (The Topeka Capital journal, Oct. 12, 2001
Jehovah’s Witnesses congregation in Othello sued in sex abuse case
http://www.tri-cityherald.com/news/2002/0123/story5.html

etc. etc. etc.

 

[RevDrNorth]

1holycatholic, Your post does nothing to demonstrate that the RCC has the lowest number. The link you provide lists abusers back for several years under for instance the Episcopal link and therefore we can assume that the stats for Catholic priests is also MUCH higher than the 107 quoted by Justy90 for a one year period.

In fact compared to the 140 Episcopal clergy going back several years mentioned above, there were approximately 11,000 allegations against 4,300 + priests in between the years 1952-2002. Of these 6700 were substantiated and 3300 could not be due to the death of the priests. This figure of course is low due to the fact that many more cases have come out since 2002 and this is just within the US and does not take into account the worldwide issue, some of which is only beginning to be brought to the surface in Ireland and most recently a big scandal in Italy.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases

Frankly, I do not see the point of the poster (OCTA) above trying to claim that the RCC has the lowest number of abusers (out of the clear blue). That is statistically incorrect. Also, no matter what denomination it is IS SAD and it is SIN.

 

[1holycatholic]

1holycatholic, Your post does nothing to demonstrate that the RCC has the lowest number. The link you provide lists abusers back for several years under for instance the Episcopal link and therefore we can assume that the stats for Catholic priests is also MUCH higher than the 107 quoted by Justy90 for a one year period.

In fact compared to the 140 Episcopal clergy going back several years mentioned above, there were approximately 11,000 allegations against 4,300 + priests in between the years 1952-2002. Of these 6700 were substantiated and 3300 could not be due to the death of the priests. This figure of course is low due to the fact that many more cases have come out since 2002 and this is just within the US and does not take into account the worldwide issue, some of which is only beginning to be brought to the surface in Ireland and most recently a big scandal in Italy.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases

Frankly, I do not see the point of the poster (OCTA) above trying to claim that the RCC has the lowest number of abusers (out of the clear blue). That is statistically incorrect. Also, no matter what denomination it is IS SAD and it is SIN.

Justy90 said:
I have never heard of the Methodist child sex abuse scandal or the Jehovah’s Witness criminal sexual conduct debacle.
I was providing examples that abuse had occurred in Protestant denominations.

Why isn’t sexual abuse a scandal in Protestant denominations?

 

[Justy90]

Justy90 said:
I have never heard of the Methodist child sex abuse scandal or the Jehovah’s Witness criminal sexual conduct debacle.
I was providing examples that abuse had occurred in Protestant denominations.

Why isn’t sexual abuse a scandal in Protestant denominations?

I can see the “Blame the media” card being played here very soon.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

Why isn’t sexual abuse a scandal in Protestant denominations?

Who says its not a scandal

I doubt there is anyone here who thinks the abuse of vulnerable people by clerics is NOT a scandal, regardless of denomination.

What many I think struggle with is the fact that as soon as the issue is raised, some catholics point to other denominations to look at themselves and make deceitful claims that abuse is worse in their denomination.

To validate such a claim, you need to produce evidence that the methodist church, the lutheran church, the jewish religion etc - INDIVIDUALY - has more substanciated abuse claims againts their clergy than does the catholic church. That’s simpy not the case.

And sadly I do not believe we have heard the last of it either

 

[Justy90]

Who says its not a scandal

I doubt there is anyone here who thinks the abuse of vulnerable people by clerics is NOT a scandal, regardless of denomination.

What many I think struggle with is the fact that as soon as the issue is raised, some catholics point to other denominations to look at themselves and make deceitful claims that abuse is worse in their denomination.

To validate such a claim, you need to produce evidence that the methodist church, the lutheran church, the jewish religion etc - INDIVIDUALY - has more substanciated abuse claims againts their clergy than does the catholic church. That’s simpy not the case.

And sadly I do not believe we have heard the last of it either

You are most assuredly right. It was decades that this horrible injustice happened to minor boys in the church while the priests involved were covered for and moved around. How deplorable is this? Tell the victims of these atrocities that the gates of hell didn’t prevail against the Catholic church and I’m certain that they would claim otherwise as they well should.

 

[VARC]

The most horrible part of the story wasn’t that boys were being molested by catholic preists (a lot of ministers have done that in many denoms) but rather that the bishops covered the whole thing up by moving the priest from parish to parish after every time the priest raped a boy. The biggest offender was Cardinal Law who, in order to avoid prosecution, received a promotion to one the most prestigious churches in Rome! What an outrage. The RCC’s biggest offenders, the bishops, got off scott free.

 

[1holycatholic]

You are most assuredly right. It was decades that this horrible injustice happened to minor boys in the church while the priests involved were covered for and moved around. How deplorable is this? Tell the victims of these atrocities that the gates of hell didn’t prevail against the Catholic church and I’m certain that they would claim otherwise as they well should.

Out of 2.1 billion Christians 1.1 billion are Catholic. There are nearly half a million Catholic priests. That even one committed such abuse is deplorable.

The Church does not teach that child abuse is anything but gravely sinful.

In the few months that your denomination has existed have they condemned contraception as gravely sinful, as all Protestants taught prior to the Lambeth conference in 1930?

THE DECLINE CONTINUES: Episcopalians Support Pro-Abortion rally

The overwhelming majority, if not all Protestants teach that contraceptive use is acceptable (even though they unanimously taught that their use was sinful) with full knowledge that some contraceptives function as abortifacients. Even more disturbing is that many Protestants, going by the Bible alone, endorse abortion.

If you expect the Church to be sinner free you will never find it. If you want a “Church” that will confirm you in your sin there are tens of thousands of Protestant denominations that will accommodate you.

 

[NewAgeCatholic]

States can put it on the ballot. If it becomes the law of land, we have to recognize it. Until they do, and it is approved by the voters, it is NOT the law of the land. I vote against it. I have no issue those of same sex living together and sharing each other sexually but will not ensorse them any queer marriage rights.

 

[BrianH]

• 46 Methodist Ministers
• 140 Anglican/Episcopalian Ministers
• Visalia, CA – A 38-year-old Visalia man who was a leader in a local Jehovah’s Witness congregation may face up to 16 years in prison on charges of sexually molesting a 12-year-old congregation member. Louis Anguiano served until last year as an elder at the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah’s Witnesses at 5310 Caldwell Ave. He is accused of continuous sexual abuse, over a two-year period, of a girl who attended the same congregation. (The Fresno Bee, January 30, 2003)
  Visalian who was a Jehovah’s Witness leader accused by girl, 12.
• New Bedford, MA. An Attleboro Jehovah’s Witnesses minister, Ralph Heroux, 74, yesterday pleaded not guilty to charges of two counts of rape of a child and two counts of indecent assault and battery on a child under 14. (The Standard Times, Jan. 2, 2003)
  Minister charged with child rape
• MANHATTAN, KS. – A judge ruled Thursday that a man who was allegedly molested years ago by a Manhattan minister will be allowed to testify at the minister’s trial, where he will face charges that he molested a teen-age boy.

Brian N. Savage, of Manhattan, was bound over for trial in July. He faces two counts of aggravated criminal sodomy, two counts of criminal sodomy, two counts of aggravated indecent solicitation of a child and one count of aggravated indecent liberties with a child.

According to court records, Savage, 44, met the then-13-year-old victim at the Seventh Day Adventist church in Manhattan where Savage was a pastor and the victim attended. Savage took on a fatherly role, according to court documents. After a relationship developed, Savage began engaging in sexual acts with the boy, the records say. In at least one instance, Savage gave the boy $100 for oral sex. Some of the molestation took place at the church. (The Topeka Capital journal, Oct. 12, 2001
Jehovah’s Witnesses congregation in Othello sued in sex abuse case
http://www.tri-cityherald.com/news/2002/0123/story5.html

etc. etc. etc.

IF we are discussing molestation statistics, the samples linked are not going to help. First of all, denomination with similiar names, ie Methodist but different Methodist denominations, are lumped together. Most of the cases do not involve a coverup(one alledged exception) and many of the links involve allegations only. Sometimes people are listed three times as well but counted in the total.
Many of the people are also listed a “youth workers” and not clergy themselves.
Statistically speaking we would have to know how many clergy in each denomination over the entire span and then the percentage. Really that would be impossible to do.
The claim made then cannot be proven. Catholic priests do not have the lowest molestation rates; I am not certain who does without have all the facts.

 

[1holycatholic]

States can put it on the ballot. If it becomes the law of land, we have to recognize it. Until they do, and it is approved by the voters, it is NOT the law of the land. I vote against it. I have no issue those of same sex living together and sharing each other sexually but will not ensorse them any queer marriage rights.

IIRC it’s been on the ballot thirty times and it has failed every time.

I’m unable to recognize a fiction (homosexual “marriage”) as reality. The state will have to forcibly impose homosexual marriage on the populace.

 

[1holycatholic]

IF we are discussing molestation statistics, the samples linked are not going to help. First of all, denomination with similiar names, ie Methodist but different Methodist denominations, are lumped together. Most of the cases do not involve a coverup(one alledged exception) and many of the links involve allegations only. Sometimes people are listed three times as well but counted in the total.
Many of the people are also listed a “youth workers” and not clergy themselves.
Statistically speaking we would have to know how many clergy in each denomination over the entire span and then the percentage. Really that would be impossible to do.
The claim made then cannot be proven. Catholic priests do not have the lowest molestation rates; I am not certain who does without have all the facts.

If you admit to having insufficient facts then how can you assert that Catholic priests do not have the lowest molestation rates?

The point is that no group is immune from this problem. Public schools have a massively larger problem than any religious organization.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

We are not talking specifically about molestation. In any case, you throw something (claim that the RCC has the lowest molestation rate) out without any fact to back up your statement. I recall Fr. Groeschel noting that the incidents of molestation were statistically no higher than the population at large (he gave percentages). This is most certainly an issue in many denominations.

The Wiki article is simply noting a number of homosexual Bishops within the Catholic Church ranging from the 11 th century where the one Bishop set his lover up as Bishop of Orleans and this was ignored by two Popes to Cardinal Spellmen’s alleged homsexuality and relationship to more current examples in the US and abroad. Bishop Weakland being probably the latest (he came out of the closet and wrote a biography).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_bishops

As I noted above, IIRC EWTN has spoke about concern over the gay subculture within catholic seminaries. The Wiki article links to another that estimates gay clergy as high as 33%. I suspect that the ability to remain single when being gay was perceived more negatively in society led to a higher percentage of gay clergy in the Catholic Church than other denominations. Makes logical sense.

The point is that we need to be careful when pointing fingers at other denominations in regard to sexuality issues and holding one church up as a bastion of orthodox sexuality when there has existed, as noted in the Wik articles, a gay subculture within it for some time that extends from the hierarchy on down. I think all churches need to adhere to biblical teaching on sexuality but this cannot simply be winked at. This is where I think Benedict is working to take control of the issue within the seminaries, etc. The Legionaries (worldwide conservative Catholic religious order) debacle is just another unfortunate situation that went on too long and was ignored (its leader Fr. Marcel had long been accused of sexual impropriety with seminarians and drug use). Fr. marcel was apparently bi sexual as he was discovered to have fathered a child who he was supporting. Pope Benedict removed him and he was not buired in the vatican where it had been planned but it Mexico.

*Note: There are many…many faithful Legionaries and our hearts have to go out to them. I saw two priests interviewed on EWTN with Raymond A. They were obviously devastated to have had a man they revered brought down in scandal and the Church acknowledging it. The Legionaries are a very conservative and loyal religious order and looking to their future. Keep them in prayer.

We, as Catholics do not consider Wiki a credible resource. Furthermore, no attorney has made more money than non-Catholic Jeff Anderson. It was estimated by the Associated Press that he’d won 60 Million in settlements from Catholic Dioceses. People saw this as a way to make money and a lot of it were nothing more than witch hunts.
In 2005, there were 5 cases of sexual misconduct among 42,000 priests. You exaggerate your findings, yet rely on Wiki for your information.
There are more people seeking the priesthood in droves today than ever before. If you say this isn’t so, you do not know what each Diocese has in terms of the numbers of priests that are available, since there are thousands of these Dioceses. And in every country.

 

[LondonIrish]

In 2005, there were 5 cases of sexual misconduct among 42,000 priests.

Hello OneTrueCathApos

Do you have a source for this figure of 5 cases? As you rightly point out, it’s very important to have credible sources. Does your figure come from official court or church documents? It would be great if it does.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Hello OneTrueCathApos

Do you have a source for this figure of 5 cases? As you rightly point out, it’s very important to have credible sources. Does your figure come from official court or church documents? It would be great if it does.

Sure. The Catholic League, and the article is an interesting one. [www.catholicleague.org/release should](www.catholicleague.org/release should) help you find it.

 

[LondonIrish]

Sure. The Catholic League, and the article is an interesting one. [www.catholicleague.org/release should](www.catholicleague.org/release should) help you find it.

Hello OneTruecathApos

I’m having what my daughter calls a ‘‘senior moment’’ I’ve scoured the catholic league website you linked and I cant find any article that says there were only 5 cases of priestly misconduct in 2005. Most of the articles on abuse except one seem to be written before 2005 and one in 2006. Having read them, I cant see the reference for the 5 cases you mention. I would love to send the link to a friend of mine. Can you help me? Can you provide a direct link to the church document and relieve my ‘‘senior moment’’

 

[1holycatholic]

Hello OneTruecathApos

I’m having what my daughter calls a ‘‘senior moment’’ I’ve scoured the catholic league website you linked and I cant find any article that says there were only 5 cases of priestly misconduct in 2005. Most of the articles on abuse except one seem to be written before 2005 and one in 2006. Having read them, I cant see the reference for the 5 cases you mention. I would love to send the link to a friend of mine. Can you help me? Can you provide a direct link to the church document and relieve my ‘‘senior moment’’

I put in abuse 2005 and came up with this.
For the year 2005, there were 21 allegations that involved minors as victims, but only five were found to be credible; two were still under investigation and in two instances there was insufficient information.
For the sake of argument, let’s group the two cases under investigation with the two cases where there wasn’t enough information and add them to the five where there are credible allegations. That brings us to a total of nine priests. Now do the math: we had approximately 42,000 priests in 2005, which means that .02 percent had a credible accusation made against him last year.
But this is off topic. The thread is titled: Which Christian denominations support Gay Marriage?