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1holycatholic
Guest
Catholic means the same thing now as it did when Christ established the Catholic Church. Rationalizations don’t change that fact.
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Grace_Seeker
Guest
Look again at what you yourself just said…
In other words the Church of Jesus Christ is inclusive of more than just the Catholic Church. That’s all I’m saying. And you yourself just confirmed that to be true.
Yet you still make exclusive statement such as
What about those Eastern Churches you just mentioned, the Orthodox Church or the Coptic Church? Aren’t they also a part of the universal Church of Jesus Christ as well? I submit to you that they are. And if they are, then (because of what the term “catholic” actually means, despite centuries of abusing it in referring to just one particular ecclesiastical body, they are very bit as much catholic as the Catholic Church is. And by excluding them from identity in the one true universal church, you’re actually proving that you’re not so catholic yourself.
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Grace_Seeker
Guest
Agreed, and Catholic rationalizations that claim that Christ created the Catholic Church are just that, rationalizations.
I would also remind you, as I was reminded above, of what I’m sure you already know:
One can say that Jesus established the ecclesia, but not that he established anything called , Ignatius, not Jesus, was the first to ascribe that terminology to anything.
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Grace_Seeker
Guest
And when Justin Martyr speaks of the resurrection, using the words, (ἡ καθολικὴ ἀνάστασις – (Dial. 82) – does he mean that only Catholics are to experience the resurrection, or does he mean that there is a universal resurrection of all Christians?
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1holycatholic
Guest
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Christ_Imitator
Guest
Exactly! The “Church” is simply the body of Christ: those who choose to follow Jesus Christ and the words of the Holy Bible.
The church is not:
-a nice fancy cathedral filled with statues
-a conservative baptist bible church
-an orthodox church
-It is not a building at all.
Each one of us holds the key to the Lord’s kingdom within ourselves.
This is a little random, but it reminded me of a Contemp/Christan song that I heard on the radio: youtube.com/watch?v=QU6eu12Lshc&feature=related
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Jimmy_B
Guest
Hello CI,Exactly! The “Church” is simply the body of Christ: those who choose to follow Jesus Christ and the words of the Holy Bible.
The church is not:
-a nice fancy cathedral filled with statues
-a conservative baptist bible church
-an orthodox church
-It is not a building at all.
Each one of us holds the key to the Lord’s kingdom within ourselves.
This is a little random, but it reminded me of a Contemp/Christan song that I heard on the radio: youtube.com/watch?v=QU6eu12Lshc&feature=related
In your own words, what does it mean to “follow Jesus”?
Why are there so many Protestant, non-Catholic Christians who “follow Jesus” differently?
Some, who “follow Jesus”, believe that “Homosexual Marriage” is ok and some don’t, can you, explain why that is?
Do you support Homosexual Marriage?
Are Protestants who don’t support **“**Homosexual Marriage”, still part of the ““Body’s of Christ”? On the other hand, are Protestants who **do **support **“**Homosexual Marriage”, still part of the ““Body’s of Christ”?
One side says it’s a sin, the other side is ok with it….do you see a problem here?
Why do Protestants disagree, if they are part of the same “body”? How many “Body’s of Christ” are there anyways?
Do you believe that Catholics are part of the “Body of Christ”, if not then please explain?
In your opinion, is the Catholic Church wrong in it’s rejection of “Homosexual Marriage”?
Protestants disagree because of the errant Protestant belief, which allows for “Personal Interpretation of the Bible”. The problem is… that everybody interprets it differently. Can’t you see this? This belief has been a disaster for non-Catholic Christians.
Your thoughts?
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Jimmy_B
Guest
Hello Grace Seeker,
I’m Catholic, so obviously, Catholic and catholic both apply. We believe that the Catholic Church is the “Catholic Church” and it is the “universal church”.
I’m not a linguist, so I have no Idea what you just posted. I’m assuming that it came from the Bible, a Catholic book, so what ever it is, if it did come from the Bible, then it would support Catholicism, if viewed and understood in its proper context.
Are you a linguist, or language expert?
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Jimmy_B
Guest
Grace seeker,
Oops, I see that you were quoting Justin Martyr and not the Bible…got distracted for a moment. I do that sometimes, forgive me. However, I still don’t have any idea what you posted. However, I do know and I have read that the early reference to the Catholic Church by Justin Martyr referred to an actual religion, the Catholic religion, or the “Catholic Church”.
Catholic apologists, much smarter than I am and I’m sure some of whom are language experts, and experts in ancient documents, often use this quote to support the Catholic position.
The Catholic Church has been going over and studying this type of material for hundreds of years. The Catholic Church is the keeper of most of these documents and has been responsible for preserving and translating things like this.
I believe that the Catholic apologists before me, are correct in their definition. The Catholic Church has been there, since the beginning …no Protestant denomination for another 1400+ years.
If the Catholic Church wasn’t there from the beginning, then how do you explain the formation of the Bible? If not for the Catholic Church, how would you know about Justin Martyr in the first place?
I surrender to my Church; My Catholic Churches beliefs are my beliefs. I’ll post some sources when I have a chance. At the time of Justin Martyr, around 130AD there was only one Christian religion, so who else could he have been referring to? It couldn’t have been a non-Catholic, Protestant denomination.
Thank you for your post.
God bless you Pastor,
Jimmy
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raydg
Guest
The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (LCMS) does not support gay marriages. They are a conservative Lutheran body. Also in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, there is a conservative body that might break from the ELCA soon as they oppose the liberal leaning and teaching of the ELCA.
My past is that I was confirmed in the Lutheran Church in America, now part of the ELCA and attended a LCMS body before I moved to Moscow, Russia.
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centurion210
Guest
Grace Seeker,
The Catholic Church sees the Eastern Orthodox churches differently from Protestant churches. We believe reunification is possible because there are no “unresolvable” issues. The church views Protestants as separated brethren. There is no way the church can reconcile with “Protestantism” because there is no one belief among Protestants. The Catholic Church is the same universal Church that has existed since Jesus founded it on Peter. We never left. The one deposit of faith given us by the apostles is still intact in the Catholic Church. Over the centuries the Church has defended the faith against all heresies. Doctrine developed over time primarily as a result of defending this “deposit of faith”.
I mentioned earlier that you might find it helpful to study the early church. Your post reminded me that the other day (October 14) was the feast day of St. Callistus. He was a pope in the early third century. History notes that he had come in conflict with a rival named Hippolytus. The pope wanted to show mercy to those who fell away from the faith. You see, as I mentioned in another post, the early church was very strict on sin and repentance.Hippolytus was opposed to reconciling fallen away members.
If you choose to study the early church you will see why it developed as it did. There were constant challenges to the faith. You seem like a very thoughtful person and I believe you are genuinely interested in seeking knowledge. As I mentioned previously, there is all information in the world available to you; you just need to look for it.
It is really impossible to go into great detail on these forums but I know from reading these
posts, that there are many, many well-informed posters who can guide you to the information. After all, that is why you are on this website,correct ?
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1holycatholic
Guest
The Church is authoritative. The Bible proceeds from the Church, not the other way around.Exactly! The “Church” is simply the body of Christ: those who choose to follow Jesus Christ and the words of the Holy Bible.
The church is not:
-a nice fancy cathedral filled with statues
-a conservative baptist bible church
-an orthodox church
-It is not a building at all.
Each one of us holds the key to the Lord’s kingdom within ourselves.
This is a little random, but it reminded me of a Contemp/Christan song that I heard on the radio: youtube.com/watch?v=QU6eu12Lshc&feature=related
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rinnie
Guest
Amen. And the same Catholic Church Peter and the Apostles started.
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Grace_Seeker
Guest
As has been already pointed out, not even the term “catholic” was used until after the death of Peter and all of the rest of the apostles. Every Christian who lived at the time of the apostles and every Christian who has inherited and ascribes to the faith taught by the apostles is a member of the church which Christ establised. I dispute with those protestants who would say that Catholics are not part of that company of the faithful followers of Jesus Christ. And I dispute with Catholics who say that protestants and others are not part of that company of faithful followers of Jesus Christ. Yes, there are differences among us, but we all still follow Christ. We all acknowledge him as Lord and Savior. We all proclaim him as God incarnate among us, crucified, died and risen. One who’s death brought atonement for sins and who’s resurrection secures for us the promise of new and eternal life. We are one in these things which he hold in common, and it is that oneness that Paul was talking about in Ephesians 4. It is that oneness which makes us one in Christ. And I hold it is that oneness (not an institution) which is what Ignatius was describing when he first spoke of the catholic church. Despite schism and divisions over lesser things that common catholic faith remains among Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant alike. In that sense we are all both orthodox and catholic. And based on the protestations of many here that though we are acknowledged as one body in Christ that we can’t be one church, then it appears that we are probably all protestants as well.
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1holycatholic
Guest
So every baby that is not named immediately at birth is not the child of it’s parent? Or the child who grows up and gets a nickname or a title is no longer the child of it’s parent?
mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/rolleye/rolleye0018.gif
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Jimmy_B
Guest
**
"…every Christian who has inherited and ascribes to the faith taught by the apostles…"
*******Hello again Grace Seeker,
There are going to be many, so-called “Christians” from every denomination who will end up in hell, because of how they “ascribed to the faith”. The Reverend, Jim Jones comes to mind. Those who have betrayed Christ and the Catholic Church come to mind….
The problem is that Protestants cannot agree on how it is that Christians are to “ascribe to the faith” or what it means to “ascribe to the faith”.
The problem is that by not “ascribing” to certain aspects of Christianity, one is rejecting Christ and committing a sin.
The problem is that how some non-Catholic, Christians have “ascribed to the faith”, based on their own personal interpretation of the Bible, and this has lead to heresy and sin.
This issue of certain non-Catholic, Christian denominations officially adopting a “Christian belief”, which allows for “Homosexual Marriages”, and where some Protestant Reverends’ and Pastors have presided over “Homosexual Marriages” is a perfect example…
Can’t you see the problem here?
I would like to hear your thoughts.
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Jimmy_B
Guest
The reality is that Protestants can spend a lifetime being critical of beliefs found in other Protestant denominations but they are not. The arguments from Protestant, non-Catholic Christians seem to be primarily focused on Catholicism. I have never seen, for example, a thread here started by a Protestant, non-Catholic Christian, addressing “Christian religious leaders” like, Jim Jones, David Koresh or Marshall Applegate. Now, why is that? Is it because these are examples of “personal interpretation of the bible” gone wrong?
I think so.
Am I wrong?
I think so.
Am I wrong?
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Grace_Seeker
Guest
That might be your experience, but it is not mine. This is a Catholic forum, and I suspect that is why some of the conversations are as they are. I would just as vehemently disagree with a fellow protestant who proposed that only adult full immersion baptism was valid as I do with the interpretation here of what the church is. And on these very forums I have argued against those misguided protestants who have attacked the Catholic Church as being of the devil. Perhaps you just aren’t aware of these things because your scope of reference is limited.
As far as some of the individuals you mention above, while I didn’t know David Koresh, and have never even heard of Marshal Applegate, I can talk from personal knowledge about Jim Jones.
Jones happened to attend the same seminary that my father did. They were classmates, with my father a few years his senior. My father was serving as pastor of a Methodist Church and he came to my father interested in how he might receive an appointment as well. In our denomination there is a very deliberate process one must go through. The purpose of this process is all about discernment. To encourage personal discernment on the part of those who seek to enter ministry to affirm that they have a call and discernment on the part of the church to confirm that we recognize both the gifts and graces and right deportment and psychological temper to serve the church without hurting it. We are not perfect in this process, but I can report that Jim Jones failed the test. He then sought my father out again, trying to figure out a way around the system, and as I remember the story, my father plainly told him that what he needed to do was to deal with the internal demons that we recognized even then. Now, here is where the Catholic model of simply one single church administrative government would be nice. Because he had options, Jones simply shopped himself around till he found a denomination that would ordain him. And it must be recognized that he did a lot of good work at first. But those demons re-emerged, and though the church he was serving asked him to leaven, the system he was in allowed him to keep his ordination and he simply found a new church. There in time he would elevate himself to such a place of dominance that he would eventually wreak the havoc that made international news.
Would this never have happened within the Catholic system? Maybe not with Jim Jones. But the problem with Jones was not just theology. It was a psychological impairment, and there have certainly been many in every faith community that have go awry in these ways. That he found a system in which he did not have to answer to any higher authority than the congregation that he was able to sway with his personal charm and magantism and thereby rule with autocratic authority was a probelm. But any system that allows for autocratic authority to be vested in the hands of one person may fall victim to the problems of megalomania. And if one looks at the history of the Catholic Church I doubt that one will find it devoid of such occurances either.
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livi
Guest
The Roman Catholic Church is against gay marriage.
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centurion210
Guest
.
That was an excellent answer. One of the things that has really drawn me closer to my Catholic roots is realizing that although the 2000 year history of the Catholic Church is, as you say, checkered with some truly sinful leaders (not many though), none ever taught error. Their personal lives may have been scandalous but they did not mess with the deposit of faith given us by the apostles. It really makes Matthew 16 come to life. When you look at the failings of Peter and realize that Jesus still chose him and the other 11, but he promised to never let the Church fail.
When I look at the Catholic Church today, I look at what it teaches and what it does around the world. I see that is willing to take on all the social issues.without comprimising age old biblical teachings on morality. And of all the Chritian Churches, it is the only one that still realizes the danger found in artificial contraception.
The roots of gay marriage can be found in the acceptance of contraception. Ever since the Lambeth Conference of 1930;it has been all downhill from there. Pope Paul VI was ridiculed by almost evryone when he issued “Humanae Vitae” in 1968. Anyone who chooses to read it will see how prophetic he was.
It is also true that the papacy and the magisterium are what make the church strong. I don’t think many outside the church realize the limitations of papal infallibility. It is a prime reason the has lasted 2000 years. There is no other continuous organization in the world that has lasted that long.
It is The Church, warts and all !
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