Which church did Jesus set up...the Roman Catholic Church or Eastern Orthodox Church?

[paul_c]

What would be the criteria for the determination of the correct doctrine and authority? Your Way relies on tradition and an infallible earthly vicar with a magesterium for validation.

Jesus gave the authority for determining correct Doctrine to St. Peter. That is the Way.

The Way to which I refer is validated by Jesus, The Scripture, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus told His disciples, The Way, that He would send another Comforter who would lead in all Truth. Jesus prayed to Father to sanctify them in The Truth; Thy Word is Truth. Jesus also said He would be with them throughout the age. He has kept His promises. He is faithful, even when we are not.

Yes, that Way that was validated by Jesus in the scriptures is the Catholic Church.

Jesus gave no permission to add to or take away from The Word; nor did He appoint an earthly vicar and vicar-archy as executors/legislators.

Of course he appointed an Earthly Vicar. have you never read Matthew 16, Luke 22 or John 21?

The basic question of this thread adds to my basic point: there is a long standing schism between East and West; and it regards authority and doctrine. Both sides cannot be right. By the same token, both sides could be wrong.

Let God be found true, and every man a liar.

Peace,

James Least

Yes, it does regard Authority and doctrine. But that doesn’t have anything to do with your claims for the Way…

 

[Cinder]

Follow the papacy. It can be traced backwards from Pope Benedict VI to St. Peter. Yes, the was a time when we actually had 2 popes at the same time,and we had some that weren’t very nice or holy, but regardless, you can trace from now to St. Peter which verifies that the Catholic Church is the true Church of Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke very clearly when he spoke on this, much like He did in John 6:66. He didn’t pull punches then and he didn’t when he gave Peter the keys to the kingdom.

 

[JRKH]

It does answer the question - neither and both - for in the kingdom of heaven view, God no longer resides in a building made with human hands but renewed man is the temple of the Holy Spirit. The church Jesus set up is the body of Christ where ever they happen to fellowship.

You view Jesus putting ultimate power into Peters’ hands and then Peter passing that power down mostly through the eyes of tradition outside of Scripture even though you reference some Scripture. I view Scripture showing all Apostles being given authority and Jesus giving Paul amazing revelation and authority into the kingdom of heaven even though Paul did not walk with the earthly Jesus. This authority then passes to the believer in proportion to their calling but available at all times by faith.
In this, you confuse spritual gifts with authority…
you are absolutely correct in saying that God can choose whomever he wishes to have great effect on His Church. Such a one might be a great “churchman” or might be a humble child. Gifts of prophesy, healing, evangelization etc are all gifts given freely and in proportion…
However - the Authority given to Peter, and the Apostles, and subesquently to their successors deals more with the protection of the Gospel from corruption that can enter via “extra-ekklesia” means. That is by means outside of The Church, including private interpretation.

To me this demonstrates a difference between OT and NT. Ultimate visible authority of the high priest in the old and a distributed authority by Jesus as the ultimate authority through the Holy Spirit to the believer who is part of a group of believers voluntarily subject to one another. It was that way with Paul, he voluntarily compared his gospel with the Apostles’ but was not subject to them, Galatians chapter 2.

What do you believe would have been the result if “those of repute” HAD found things in Paul’s preachings that were problematic?
What are biblical examples of what occurred when such differences arose?
The examples in Gal 2 between Peter and Paul over circumcision, ultimately went to Jerusalem in Acts 15 and was resolved, not by having two “branches” of christianity, but by determining one correct doctrinal position.

Initially, the twelve and then Paul taught the gospel of Jesus which then was written down overseen by the Holy Spirit to be viewed by all generations to come. So today I have the teaching of the Apostles revealed by the Holy Spirit as if I was there when it was written. I can make wrong assumptions but Jesus promised that I would not be left there for the Holy Spirit will guide and Jesus will never leave me or forsake me.

me…me…me Where is the community in all of this, I. Me. My…?
Jesus tells us to “Tell it to The Church” (ekklsesia, community). He says that the Church has the authority to bind and loose. The Church associated with the Rock of St Peter.

Yes, we have the Holy Spirit, and Yes we can make wrong assumptions…Which is WHY we have the Church, composed of other people who have the Holy Spirit. It is by and through The Church that we may test our assumptions, just as Paul tested his against the elders of the Church in Galatians 2.

The error comes in when I want to bring someone into subjection to my gospel when it differs from the gospel of Jesus and I demand obedience from others. Scripture says that error promises freedom but brings you into bondage.

Scripture also says “tell it to The Church” and to “listen to The Church” and failure to do so results in being “treated as a tax collector”…
“My Gospel” can only differ from “Christ’s Gospel” when it is seperated from His Authoritative Church.

Due to the large Jewish contingent, the Roman church was politically given the preeminence. Thus adherrence to OT thinking about a single ruler. To this end history shows that it split a number of times due to political corruption by demanding papal supremecy. By demanding obedience the RCC brings into bondage what should be free. While elements of the RCC are true gospel, others are not supported by Scripture.

Or at least your personal (non-ekklesia) interpretation of Scripture

Finally, that is why I wrote that Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. There is no mediator between the believer and Jesus. We submit to one another by love.

We submit also to His Church in Love as well as in scriptural obedience to Christ’s own words.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

What would be the criteria for the determination of the correct doctrine and authority? Your Way relies on tradition and an infallible earthly vicar with a magesterium for validation.

Not “your way…” but Christ’s way for He is the one who set it up and has protected it for nearly 2000 years.

The Way to which I refer is validated by Jesus, The Scripture, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus told His disciples, The Way, that He would send another Comforter who would lead in all Truth. Jesus prayed to Father to sanctify them in The Truth; Thy Word is Truth. Jesus also said He would be with them throughout the age. He has kept His promises. He is faithful, even when we are not.

You are correct. The way, (His Catholic Church) is validated by Jesus, the Scriptures (compiled by His Church) and the Holy Spirit (Invoked by the Church constantly).

**Jesus gave no permission to add to or take away from The Word; **
I love this. in the passage above this one, you refer to Christ sending the comforter to lead us into all truth, then in this passage you want to restrict the comforter to only that which has been written.
By the way I’d like to see where Christ has “given no permission”…

nor did He appoint an earthly vicar and vicar-archy as executors/legislators.

Ah - But He did…He did…He did…and Scripture clearly says so and demonstrates it.
See Mt 16:17-19, Mt 18:15-18 and Acts 15
The only reason you don’t see this is because you (and others who sprout from the reformation) insist on gutting any such authority from the Gospel. You fall into the trap of “twisting the gospel to (your) own destruction”.

The basic question of this thread adds to my basic point: there is a long standing schism between East and West; and it regards authority and doctrine. Both sides cannot be right. By the same token, both sides could be wrong.

And yet look at what the primary differences are AND the similarities.
Neither of the most ancient Churches believe in Sola Scriptura. Both Churches accept the three legged stool of Scripture, Tradition, and Magisterial teaching authority. Both accept the councilior Model shown in Acts 15. Both have an authoritative heirachy. Neither accepts that “personal interpretation” outside of the confines of established doctrine is acceptable until and unless it is submitted to the scrutiny of “The Church” (Mt 18 and Acts 15)

Yes there are differences between the two in how the heirarchal authority should be excersized and expressed. There are also doctrinal differences (mostly post schism) that will need to be worked out.
BUT—
While certain groups look with glee on thse differences and point to them as some sort of fatal flaw, they (and you) fail to see the huge similarities, that date allt he way back to the apostles that undercut many of the foundational assumptions made by the post reformation groups.

Peace
James

 

[gtrenewed]

These are empty words. God ever resided in a temple made with human hands. He’s omipresent.

How can Scripture be empty words? While God is omnipresent, He chose by covenant with Moses to dwell in tents in the ark and with Solomon to dwell in a temple in the ark. If you don’t understand this you cannot understand the temple veil ripping as Jesus died on the cross nor can you understand the new covenant or the Eucharist. Also, 1Cor3:16, “Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?”

Scripture definitely does not give all the Apostles equal authority

 

[diggerdomer]

My statement may have been a bit overly “blustery” thanks for bringing it to my attention. However, the Church does teach in the Catechism that,
882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter’s successor, “is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful.” “For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered.”
I know of no one else save Christ himself who has such authority.
Of course the Pope should always excersize such authority in communion with the college of bishops comprising the magisterium of The Church.
This is more fully covered in HERE.

Peace
James

According to Vatican II and the Catechism, the Bishop of a diocese as similar authority over his diocese.

Still, as you note, I think the idea of the Pope being second only to Christ is best left unsaid.

 

[diggerdomer]

Follow the papacy. It can be traced backwards from Pope Benedict VI to St. Peter. Yes, the was a time when we actually had 2 popes at the same time,and we had some that weren’t very nice or holy, but regardless, you can trace from now to St. Peter which verifies that the Catholic Church is the true Church of Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke very clearly when he spoke on this, much like He did in John 6:66. He didn’t pull punches then and he didn’t when he gave Peter the keys to the kingdom.

And there were times when we had 3 popes.

 

[JRKH]

And there were times when we had 3 popes.

There were times when we had one pope and one or two pretenders…

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

According to Vatican II and the Catechism, the Bishop of a diocese as similar authority over his diocese.

This is true. Each Bishop, including the Bishop of Rome is constrained to an extent by the historical teachings of The Church and each has the freedom of interpretation of those teachings for the faithful under their charge.
The benefit of the magisterium as a whole, headed by the Pope, is that these teachings and interpretations can be discussed, coordinated, amplified, monitored and clarified as needed in an orderly and universal (catholic) manner.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit on all of the disciples. Jesus washed the feet of all the Apostles. Jesus taught all the disciples. In Matthew 28:16-20 and Mark 16:14-20 Jesus commissions the eleven Apostles with authority and power.

But did He give them all the Keys to the Kingdom?

It is reasonable to disagree with your interpretation of these Scriptures, especially since Acts does not seem to clearly show Peter taking the authority. Paul develops more doctrine than Peter and Paul claims equal authority.

It seems you make as many assumptions as we do. Your reference to, I assume, Acts 15 indeed does not show Peter “taking authority” but it does demonstrate that Peter and his words were held in high regard.
Also your assertion that “Paul developed more doctrine thatn Peter”, seems to presume that this was somehow done in a vacuum rather than in a collaborative manner.
A collaboration that is supported by Acts 15 as well as the passage you allude to from Gallatians in the following.

That was very little in the chapter, mostly he talked of his equality, verse6 “but from those who were of high reputation (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)-well, those who were of reputation contributed nothing to me.”

They contributed nothing to me - meaning of course that they “could have” contributed to him, just as he could have contirbuted to them.
Co-operation…Councilior…collaboration…Authoritative in Unity.

The Holy Spirit guides each believer and when two or more are gathered in Jesus’ name He is in the midst of them. Since each believer is guided when believers assemble as a church they are guided.

Nicely put until, like the Judaizers adn the church in Antioch, two, “Spirit Guided” groups hold opposing views. Then what is to be done?
There’s that pesky problem again… how does Christ tell us to resolve such matters among those who are sincere believe they are “spirit guided” and yet disagree?

Peace
James

 

[romesweethome]

I don’t see the successor of peter, with his primary role as shepherd of Jesus sheep and lambs(all of them) in the eastern church. I do see it in the catholic church. By the way, where is the worldwide ministry and outreach to the sick, dying, alcoholics, etc…in the eastern church? how many eastern priests gave their lives for others in nazi germany? I am not familiar with all of the martyrs of the eastern church. Did the eastern church battle islam in the middle ages when the faith was at risk for being killed off? Can someone clarify these things for me? thanks rsh

 

[gtrenewed]

But did He give them all the Keys to the Kingdom?

Keys of the kingdom in OT were used by the chief steward to open treasure houses. Since Jesus’ kingdom of the NT is spiritual, these keys are spiritual and open spiritual treasure houses, therevelation and gifts of the Spirit. The rock or foundation that the church is built on is revelation from the Spirit of God. We see Peter use some of these keys at Pentecost and at Corneleus’ house. But we also see Paul, independently and directly from Jesus, given these keys and Stephen given these keys.

It seems you make as many assumptions as we do. Your reference to, I assume, Acts 15 indeed does not show Peter “taking authority” but it does demonstrate that Peter and his words were held in high regard.
Also your assertion that “Paul developed more doctrine thatn Peter”, seems to presume that this was somehow done in a vacuum rather than in a collaborative manner.
A collaboration that is supported by Acts 15 as well as the passage you allude to from Gallatians in the following.

 

[gtrenewed]

I don’t see the successor of peter, with his primary role as shepherd of Jesus sheep and lambs(all of them) in the eastern church.

The text in John 21 used to identify Peter as primary shepherd that you allude to is understood by many as Jesus forgiving Peters’ three denials with three restorals so Peter could go forth as an Apostle. When Jesus says “go forth and strengthen your brethren”; He is meaning that there is restoration from the depths of failure so remind them of this. It is not about living in perfection but in the security of Jesus’ redemption while we mature to perfection.

By the way, where is the worldwide ministry and outreach to the sick, dying, alcoholics, etc…in the eastern church? how many eastern priests gave their lives for others in nazi germany? I am not familiar with all of the martyrs of the eastern church

 

[James_Least]

Yes there are differences between the two in how the heirarchal authority should be excersized and expressed. There are also doctrinal differences (mostly post schism) that will need to be worked out.
BUT—
While certain groups look with glee on thse differences and point to them as some sort of fatal flaw, they (and you) fail to see the huge similarities, that date allt he way back to the apostles that undercut many of the foundational assumptions made by the post reformation groups.

Peace
James

---

A similar analogy could be made for similarities between Anglicans and Rome. Similarities do not establish truthfulness. Without an agreed upon divine standard for comparison there really is no basis for a discussion. Adding the traditions of men to the mix just makes the situation more polluted.

Dating back to the apostles is an abberation of the Encyclopedia approved by the Holy See. Where is the outside, unbiased third party (name removed by moderator)ut? There is no list of popes in the scripture. Then there are the antipopes and the selling of papacies and bishoprics. There has been a lot of coverup even through today. This is the Church Jesus is building? One must seriously wonder. Someone is not being led by the Holy Spirit. There is something glaringly bogus about the wonderful world of the religion of man.

Where will we be in 100 years?

Even so, come Lord Jesus.

Peace,

James Least

 

[josephdaniel29]

I don’t see the successor of peter, with his primary role as shepherd of Jesus sheep and lambs(all of them) in the eastern church. I do see it in the catholic church. By the way, where is the worldwide ministry and outreach to the sick, dying, alcoholics, etc…in the eastern church?

Orthodox Christian Mission Center

Fellowship of Orthodox Christians United to Serve

Hogar Rafael Ayau Orphanage

Orthodox Tanzania

how many eastern priests gave their lives for others in nazi germany?

Holy New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia

Father Arseny

I am not familiar with all of the martyrs of the eastern church. Did the eastern church battle islam in the middle ages when the faith was at risk for being killed off? Can someone clarify these things for me? thanks rsh

Orthodox and many Catholics still live under the yoke of Islam and face heavy persecution in places such as Turkey.

Ecumenical Patriarch on Christian Persecution in Turkey

In Christ
Joe

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
These are empty words. God ever resided in a temple made with human hands. He’s omipresent.

Do you really think God, creator of the universe could be contained within the tents or the temple? Yes, the spirit resides in you as well. That’s what omnipresent means.

Quote:
Scripture definitely does not give all the Apostles equal authority

Yes the Apostles had authority and power, but Peter was the one Jesus singled out as the leader.

Quote:
Read Matthew 16, Luke 22 and john 21. Peter is clearly singled out for leadership. And no where does it say that that authority passes to each believer. Authority in scripture is passed by the laying on of hands (ordination).

I suggest that you re-read Acts. In Acts 1, Peter leads the apostles in replacing Judas. In Acts 2, Peter speaks for the Apostles in explaining Pentacost to the crowds and it is Peter who tells the first converts what to do to be saved (be baptized. It is Peter who heals the lame man in Acts 3 and it s Peter who defends the apostles before the Sanhedrin in Acts 3-4. It is Peter who brings Tabitha back from the dead. It is Peter who
condemns Anias and Sapphira. it is Peter that brings Cornelius to the faith and it is Peter who makes the difinitive Doctrinal statement at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. Paul is a missionary and a theologian but he is not the leader of the Church.

Quote:
In Galations 2, Paul talked of validating

NonCatholics are always forced into explaning away scripture that doesn’t support their theology.

Quote:
Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would guide the church. You have separated yourself from the Church that Holy Spirit is guiding. That’s why you have these erroneous views.

This simply is not true. If it was true, you wouldn’t have the obvious situation being played out right now where different beleivers come to different conclusions on the same scripture passages

Quote:
The error comes in when you differ from the teachings of the Church. Why do you assume the Church with its tradition and millions of scholars is in error and you, alone with your thoughts, are correct?

The fact still remains that you have different views than that of the Catholic church. How could that be true if Jesus protects all believers? Apparently being a believer doesn’t mean you understand the truth properly. Someone is wrong. It could be the 1.2Billion catholics or it could be you.

Quote:
What large Jewish contingent? The Jews had no political or temperal power over Rome.

Actually, paul was writing to Gentiles in Rome:
Romans 1: 13
I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that I often planned to come to you, though I was prevented until now, that I might harvest some fruit among you, too, as among the rest of the Gentiles.

Quote:
The church split because people like you felt they know more about salvation than the Church to which it was entrusted

What errors are you speaking about?

 

[diggerdomer]

I don’t see the successor of peter, with his primary role as shepherd of Jesus sheep and lambs(all of them) in the eastern church. I do see it in the catholic church. By the way, where is the worldwide ministry and outreach to the sick, dying, alcoholics, etc…in the eastern church? how many eastern priests gave their lives for others in nazi germany? I am not familiar with all of the martyrs of the eastern church. Did the eastern church battle islam in the middle ages when the faith was at risk for being killed off? Can someone clarify these things for me? thanks rsh

What, in your understanding, is the difference between the eastern church and the catholic church?

 

[JRKH]

I agree that a group or council of believers is the Scriptural process of resolving disputes. However, a supreme ruler is never demonstrated but a group. As I said, this notion of a supreme ruler comes much later and it denigrates into the travesty of the medieval papacy leading to a number of splits including the reformation.

James, I don’t have a problem with the idea of a “chairman of the board of leaders” but I disagree that this is divinely mandated and proves that the RCC and those that agree are the only true church.

gtrenewed,
All of the other arguing aside, your statement above which I bolded, gets to the heart of the matter.
I am glad that you don’t have a problem with a “chairman of the board”. I hope that you can then take another step and recognize that the idea of a “universal” teaching authority. That a single body, (The Body of Christ) needs to have a single understanding on doctrinal matters and accept these understandings regardless of any personal misgivings.
In other words instead of one city having 15 church groups each teaching different doctrines (all claiming the Holy Spirit and the Bible), shouldn’t there be one, unified understanding and teaching??

Does this not make sense?

Peace
James

 

[gtrenewed]

gtrenewed,

All of the other arguing aside, your statement above which I bolded, gets to the heart of the matter.
I am glad that you don’t have a problem with a “chairman of the board”. I hope that you can then take another step and recognize that the idea of a “universal” teaching authority. That a single body, (The Body of Christ) needs to have a single understanding on doctrinal matters and accept these understandings regardless of any personal misgivings.
In other words instead of one city having 15 church groups each teaching different doctrines (all claiming the Holy Spirit and the Bible), shouldn’t there be one, unified understanding and teaching??

Does this not make sense?
Peace
James

 

[gtrenewed]

Do you really think God, creator of the universe could be contained within the tents or the temple? Yes, the spirit resides in you as well. That’s what omnipresent means.

Scripture says so, not my words. The Spirit residing in my heart is not what omnipresent means for God was omnipresent before He came to live in the heart of the believer.

Yes the Apostles had authority and power, but Peter was the one Jesus singled out as the leader.