Which church Fathers wrote that Mary is the Woman of Rev 12?

[kyleforu]

What church Fathers wrote that Mary is “the Woman” of Revelation chapter twelve? The woman with 12 crowns and is in heaven. I have the early church fathers software and I am unable to find where any church father wrote that? Would someone please help and tell me their names and what writings to look in? Thanks.

 

[levi86]

kyleforu:

What church Fathers wrote that Mary is “the Woman” of Revelation chapter twelve? The woman with 12 crowns and is in heaven. I have the early church fathers software and I am unable to find where any church father wrote that? Would someone please help and tell me their names and what writings to look in? Thanks.

Even if the Church Fathers didn’t write on it isn’t it pretty obvious who the woman is?

 

[Della]

I found this on the Catholic Encyclopedia online regarding this question from the article The Blessed Virgin Mary (edited for clarity):

Cardinal Newman [110] considers two difficulties against the…interpretation of the vision of the woman and child [as referring to Mary]: first, it is said to be poorly supported by the Fathers; secondly, it is an anachronism to ascribe such a picture of the Madonna to the apostolic age. As to the first exception, the eminent writer says:

Christians have never gone to Scripture for proof of their doctrines, till there was actual need, from the pressure of controversy; if in those times the Blessed Virgin’s dignity was unchallenged on all hands, as a matter of doctrine, Scripture, as far as its argumentative matter was concerned, was likely to remain a sealed book to them.

After developing this answer at length, the cardinal continues:

As to the second objection which I have supposed, so far from allowing it, I consider that it is built upon a mere imaginary fact, and that the truth of the matter lies in the very contrary direction. The Virgin and Child is not a mere modern idea; on the contrary, it is represented again and again, as every visitor to Rome is aware, in the paintings of the Catacombs. Mary is there drawn with the Divine Infant in her lap, she with hands extended in prayer, he with his hand in the attitude of blessing.

Also, in his book, “True Devotion to Mary,” St. Louis de Montfort postulates that the treasures of the faith regarding Mary were mostly hidden from the early Church and the Fathers because God intended them to be mined later, from the revelation of Christ, for an age that would need her more. I think he was dead on and prophetic as well, for if ever an age needed the image of the Queen of Heaven resplendent and triumphant after enduring White Martyrdom, it’s the Church following the Reformation, which has seen a steady decline amongst all Christians in belief, not only in Mary’s place in salvation history, but worse, in her Son and the validity of his mission. This is why St. Louis tells us that a full understanding of her place was reserved until later, so that this fuller understanding might help revive the faith of Christians in the truths of her divine Son’s life, death and resurrection.

 

[RyanL]

It’s hard to get people to say “Revelations 12” when the chapter system wasn’t devised for centuries to come, but here’s a start:

  				"He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded  						from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it  						derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived  						the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin  						Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings  						to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the  						Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is  						the Son of God; and she replied, 'Be it unto me according to thy word.' And by  						her has He been born, to whom we have proved **so many Scriptures refer**, and by  						**whom God destroys both the serpent** and those angels and men who are like him;  						but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and  						believe upon Him." *Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (A.D. 155).*

“As Eve had believed the serpent, so Mary believed the angel. The delinquency which the one occasioned by believing, the other by believing effaced. But (it will be said) Eve did not at the devil’s word conceive in her womb. Well, she at all events conceived; for the devil’s word afterwards became as seed to her that she should conceive as an outcast, and bring forth in sorrow. Indeed she gave birth to a fratricidal devil; whilst Mary, on the contrary, bare one who was one day to secure salvation to Israel, His own brother after the flesh, and the murderer of Himself. God therefore sent down into the virgin’s womb His Word, as the good Brother, who should blot out the memory of the evil brother. Hence it was necessary that Christ should come forth for the salvation of man, in that condition of flesh into which man had entered ever since his condemnation.” Tertullian, Flesh of Christ, 17 (A.D. 212).

He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption." Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235). “This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

*“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” **Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373) ***.

More here.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[IanS]

One thing that people need to understand is that in early Christianity it was not necessary to defend the common beliefs about Mary because they were well known an accepted by all. Catholics today hold the same beliefs about the Blessed Mother as the first Christians. However, through heresies within the Church regarding Christ and His mother, the Church had to reaffirm what she had always believed to protect the truth.

What’s going on in Revelation 11-12 should be obvious. Who is this “woman”? All Christians agree that the child is Christ so the woman must be Mary. Some argue that he woman is the Church. But how could the Bride of Christ give birth to Christ? Only Mary could literally give birth to Christ.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

levi86:

Even if the Church Fathers didn’t write on it isn’t it pretty obvious who the woman is?

Probably Israel, the Church, or both ​

As of 1957, the interpretation of the woman as Mary since Trent had 26 Catholic interpreters in its favour. The interpretation of the woman as the Church had 62 of them in its favour. The 1814 Haydock NT noted that “most interpreters” interpreted the woman as the Church; and that there might be an implied reference to Mary.

So the “assumption” that it must be Mary is a very recent one.

ISTM - FWIW - that the text does not support the Marian interpretation; no other “sign” in the book is an individual human being, for a start. Which is not to say the text cannot be applied to Mary in a secondary sense - but its application to her for devotional or homiletic purposes is not intended as a proper exposition of the text itself. Its use in Signum Magnum by Paul VI is not a commentary on the text - that is a different kind of writing entirely.

IMO the woman is the Jerusalem Church during the Jewish War of 66-73. ##

 

[NotWorthy]

St. Proclus (died 446 or 447)

“ Eve has been healed…and Mary is venerated (adored), because she has become mother and handmaid, cloud and chamber, and ark of the Lord…”

St. Ephrem (c. 306-373)

“With the rib that was drawn out of Adam, the wicked one drew out the heart of Adam. There arose from the rib i.e., Mary], a hidden power which cut off Satan as Dagon. For in that ark [Mary again], a book was hidden that cried and proclaimed the Conqueror. There was then a mystery revealed, in that Dagon was brought low in his own place of refuge. The accomplishment came after the type, in that the wicked one was brought low wherein he trusted…Fulfilled was the mystery. Blessed is He who by the true Lamb redeemed us, and destroyed our destroyer as He did Dagon”

Chrysippus

“An ark truly royal, an ark most precious is the ever-Virgin Mother of God, an ark which received the treasure of entire sanctification… but an ark whose architect and inhabitant, pilot and merchant, companion of the way, and leader, was the Creator of all creatures, all which He bears in Himself, but by all is not contained”

Notworthy

 

[Todd_Easton]

I looked through the index of scriptural citations in the Early Church Fathers series at www.ccel.org but found no references at all to the woman of Revelation 12, let alone to any references to Mary being that woman.

I have not seen the following texts for myself but …

Apparently, St. Epiphanius of Salamis (died A.D. 403) mentions the interpretation that the woman of Revelation 12 is the Virgin Mary, though he himself was uncertain about that identification. He supposedly mentions this when writing against the Antidicomarians, heretics who said that Mary had relations with Joseph after Jesus was born. (St. Epiphanius, Haer. 78, 11)

Apparently, St. Bernard of Clairvaux (died A.D. 1153) identifies the woman of Revelation 12 with the Virgin Mary. (St. Bernard, De B. Virgine, 2)

By the way, apparently, Pope St. Gregory the Great (died A.D. 604) identifies the woman of Revelation 12 with the Church. (St. Gregory the Great, Moralia in Job, 34, 12)

Also, I read a Protestant commentary that said the Virgin Mary was depicted in art as the queen of heaven after the fourth century.

 

[kyleforu]

Well, I managed to find out what the early Catholic church really believed about “the woman” of Rev 12. It is NOT Mary, John was refering to, but the church. So the modern teaching that Mary is the woman of Rev 12 is a false teaching.Here is the quote.

" Now, concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary, John also speaks thus: “And I saw a great and wondrous sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun …By the woman then clothed with the sun, he meant most manifestly the Church, endued with the Father’s word, whose brightness is above the sun. And by the “moon under her feet” he referred to her being adorned” (Hippolytus, Treatise on Christ and Antichrist).

“The woman clothed with the sun, and having the moon under her feet, and wearing a crown of twelve stars upon her head, and travailing in her pains, is the ancient Church of fathers, and prophets, and saints, and apostles, which had the groans and torments of its longing until it saw that Christ, the fruit of its people according to the flesh long promised to it, had taken flesh out of the selfsame people” (Victorinus, Commentary on the Apocalypse)."

 

[Church_Militant]

Kyle,

I don’t care what any commentary says, if you read that passage there is no way in the cosmos that that can be anyone other than the Blessed Virgin and the context of that passage is pretty clear as well.

It’s crazy to try to say anything else, since it was not the church that birthed Christ, but Mary.

It is confusing because John’s visions are so complex and as with many prophetic things it may have multiple meanings and fulfillments, but you are wrong to assert that this is a false teaching. The context does not support that allegation.
Pax tecum,

 

[kyleforu]

But this is what an early CHURCH FATHER wrote;

" Now, concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary, John also speaks thus: “And I saw a great and wondrous sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun …By the woman then clothed with the sun, he meant most manifestly the Church, endued with the Father’s word, whose brightness is above the sun. And by the “moon under her feet” he referred to her being adorned” (Hippolytus, Treatise on Christ and Antichrist).
Also how could Mary be the woman of Rev 12 anyway when this woman gives birth to a child IN PAIN. Giving birth to a child for a woman, is the result of Adam's sin. The Catholic church teaches the Mary of the church gave birth to Jesus WITHOUT any pain. Also this woman flees into the wilderness AFTER the male child goes back to heaven. When did Mary ever go off into the wilderness for 3 1/2 years after Jesus rose from the dead and went back to heaven to his father? It never happened.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Figures in Revelation have more than one meaning. As I understand it, the Woman of Rev 12 has three: Holy Israel, Holy Mother, and Holy Church. Mary represents Holy Israel in her obedience to the Judaic Law, and also represents Mater Ecclesia in perfect obedience to Jesus Christ. She was clearly a Holy Mother as well. Sancta Mater and Mater Ecclesia are linked in this passage and the liturgy of the Catholic Church since the patristic period. There need not be a false trichotomy between the three meanings of this figure. Pain, I believe, is figurative of suffering endured by Holy Israel in giving “birth” the Messiah, and the suffering endured by the Holy Mother Mary in giving birth to the long-awaited Messiah. It need not necessarily literally mean physical pain of Mary in childbirth. Furthermore, pain and suffering do not necessarily imply original sin. Jesus had pain and suffering, yet it was not due to original sin. Nor was Mary’s suffering.

As I understand it, the early church liturgy (5th cent.?) for the Feast of the Assumption of Mary read from this particular passage.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

The Douay-Rheims commentary on Rev 12:1 states:

“A woman”… The church of God. It may also, by allusion, be applied to our blessed Lady. The church is clothed with the sun, that is, with Christ: she hath the moon, that is, the changeable things of the world, under her feet: and the twelve stars with which she is crowned, are the twelve apostles: she is in labour and pain, whilst she brings forth her children, and Christ in them, in the midst of afflictions and persecutions.

 

[NotWorthy]

Each Bible Passage can have multiple meanings, but they can not dispute one another. As we’ve shown, many early Fathers fondly called Mary the Ark of the Covenant.

Pain in Child-birth, God promised Eve he would increase the pains of child birth in Genesis, not create pains when there were none. So its safe to assume Mary had some pains.

I think “It’s Just Dave” had it right. There are three interpretations of this passage. Each standing on their own firm ground.

Notworthy

 

[Todd_Easton]

St. Irenaeus of Lyons, writing about A.D. 189 seems to describe the Virgin Mary’s womb when he says:
Again, there are those who say, “He is a man, and who shall know him?”(14) and, “I came unto the prophetess, and she bare a son, and His name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Mighty God;”(15) and those [of them] who proclaimed Him as Immanuel, [born] of the Virgin, exhibited the union of the Word of God with His own workmanship, [declaring] that the Word should become flesh, and the Son of God the Son of man (the pure One opening purely that pure womb which regenerates men unto God, and which He Himself made pure); and having become this which we also are, He [nevertheless] is the Mighty God, and possesses a generation which cannot be declared. (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, book 4, chap. 33, paragraph 11.)
If the Virgin Mary’s womb is ‘that pure womb which regenerates men unto God’, then that would seem to make her the mother of “those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus” (Rev 12:17) and thus the woman of Revelation 12.

 

[Augustine]

kyleforu:

The Catholic church teaches the Mary of the church gave birth to Jesus WITHOUT any pain.

No, she does not teach this, neither postively nor negatively.

 

[Wisdom]

Unlike fundamentalism, Catholcism views many passages in the Bible to have a polyvanlent meaning, meaning multiple interpretation can be valid in particualar when dealing with mythology and apocalytpic passages which is heavily referred to in Revelation its not a case of having one absolute interpretation thus the Church Fathers have referred to this passage as the people of Israel, the Church and of course Mary. Also Mary has been often referred to as a type of the church by the fathers and the church so its not problematic at all for such an interpreation. The Church fathers nevery say that this is the defacto interpreation and that she can’t be Mary nor do the fathers say its Mary and can’t be the church.

The either or mindset is pure protestantism not something the fathers would subscribe to. THus protestant reading the fathers do so not only subjectively but they read into it something that is not there. Find me a downright denial of Mary possibly being the woman and then we can talk.

Besides this passage mirros the gospel story and the promise made in Genesis 3:15 and who are those passages talking about? Mary of course.

Remeber Mary and Jesus are on the same team people. ITs as if protestants are on a crusades to seperate Christ from his mother. Its pathetica and insulting to not only Mary but Christ and the very basis of incarnational theology.

 

[Superstar905]

Hmmm, I think its important to remember too that revelation was one of the last books accepted into the canon. So it make total sense, that you would not find as much early Church commentary on Mary as the woman in revelation.

For myself, it only makes sense to be Mary, and I think you would really only say otherwise if you want to play down Mary’s role in Gods plan for salvation.

 

[Della]

kyleforu:

Also how could Mary be the woman of Rev 12 anyway when this woman gives birth to a child IN PAIN. Giving birth to a child for a woman, is the result of Adam’s sin. The Catholic church teaches the Mary of the church gave birth to Jesus WITHOUT any pain. Also this woman flees into the wilderness AFTER the male child goes back to heaven. When did Mary ever go off into the wilderness for 3 1/2 years after Jesus rose from the dead and went back to heaven to his father? It never happened.

Think of it this way, John isn’t talking about the actual life of Mary in this passage, he is talking about the suffering Church being persecuted by Rome (throughout the Roman Empire). But, does this mean that Mary cannot be associated or seen as the woman in Rev. 12? Not at all. Why? Because Mary did suffer child birth pains by standing at the foot of the cross in full accord with her Son whose death gave birth to the Church. What she suffered is called “white martyrdom” in that she did not shed her blood for Christ (except birth blood) as a witness (which is what the word martyr means), but she suffered martyrdom in her heart and soul.

And certainly the devil was waiting to devour her child. Remember the Holy Family had to flee into Egypt to avoid murderous Herod who had tried to kill the Infant Jesus by destroying all the male children in Bethlehem and the surrounding area. So, Mary very much went into the desert as did the early Church as the Mother of the Church who had undergone such suffering herself.

The truths of the Gospel have not all been brought to light. Down through the centuries the Church has uncovered/revealed more and more for us to relish and relate to in the lives of Jesus, Mary, John the Baptist, the Apostles, the early Church, and all the saints of all the ages, OT and NT. This uncovering of fresh perspectives and appreciation of all they did and suffered for us doesn’t change doctrine but it does enhance our understanding of the familial bonds of our faith and strengthens our resolve to imitate, by God’s grace, those who have gone before us in the faith–suffering as they have suffered and believing in Christ as they did.

 

[Bookworm77]

Excellent - thank you for your wise words on this subject and for pointing out this great book - (TREATISE ON TRUE DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN St. Louis de Montfort).
An audio version:

https://librivox.org/a-treatise-on-...ed-virgin-by-louis-marie-grignon-de-montfort/

God bless.