Which church has produced more "fruit" catholic or protestant?

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*I want to say that that if the catholic church is the only true church wouldnt there be more fruit? *
How does one define ‘fruit’? For over two-thousand years the Church had led civilization after civilization in the great works of charity, and corporal and spiritual works of mercy through its multitude of religious orders, its lay apostolates and its lay organizations.
*Wouldnt your leadership be walking with God more? *
The vast majority of Catholic Church leaders walk with God.
*Wouldnt more people want to be catholic? *
The Catholic Church receives thousands upon thousands of converts every single day. There are roughly 1.6 billion Roman Catholics worldwide - the largest Christian body in the world.
*I run into more people who are so hurt by the catholic church, or who never felt what it is to know God in the catholic church on outreach than any other faith I have ever encountered. *
Most people that I have known leave the church for two reasons: 1. poor catechetical training in the Faith (you cannot love what you don’t know!); 2. they disagree with a moral teaching of the Church or are engaged in some type of behavior that the Church frowns upon or to which it is opposed.
Yet they are scared by the church because the church didnt offer life…just hoops to jimp through to try and get Gods attention.
They have a problem with the notion that “It’s not about me; it’s about God”.

I am not saying this is true of all Catholics but I am saying I run into it enough and see genuine hunger and desire to know God in these people…and not just know Him but to forsake everything to know Him… that I have to question the catholic church.
A lot of them want to know God on their terms, rather than on God’s terms. For me personally, Jesus founded a unified society of believers - unified in Faith, unified in doctrine and unified in belief: one bread, one body. As Peter told Christ, “Lord, where are we to go?”
 
Why do people I meet not ever feel the presence of God in church? Why do they feel dead?
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Have they been properly Catechised? Are they receiving the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin? Sin severely distorts perception. Are people going to the Sacrament of Reconciliation regularly so they can receive the Lord worthily? These are questions that have to be asked because the more we give in to sin without contrition, repentance, and penance, the more severely impaired our perception becomes. In that state the less disposed we are in experiencing the presence of God. That could be one reason for the lack of “feeling” the presence of God.

The other reason for those who are active in the Sacraments, and have an active prayer life, read their Bible everyday, and participate in works of mercy, is that God shuts off the “feeling” faucet so they can grow in faith.

Since when are “feelings” a measure of faith, and obedience to God? “Feelings” have very little to do with maturing in Christ!
 
It’s not a contest! Quantity of followers doesn’t mean truth or quality. See what happened to the Romans who adored the gods and it thooks hundreds of years. I know how easy it is to for Catholics to argue against Protestants and vice versa. That is history and theology, people arguing against each other on the basis of what they have been taught and believe. It’s head butting. It’s really hard to have productive conversations because both sides are so committed to being correct. The best thing is for each side to become more educated about the how and why of each church’s teachings, through history, apologetics, guided bible study. Protestants have given Catholics the realization that we need to dig into the bible a little more, not just defer our entire catechism. We need to learn more thoroughly. Scott Hahn is a godsend on this point and the perfect crossover to appeal to both sides. I’ve seen a gradual trend in some Protestants to learn more about history, theology, sacramental liturgy, etc. Some high profile Protestants have converted to Catholicism in recent years, planting seeds for others. Protestants aren’t wrong, in large part they are misinformed. Their theology is incomplete. Th:) ey have a huge lesson for us in their passion, and work in scripture study. We need to borrow from each other to forge futue unity.
 
Well, the Catholic Church has a lead of about a millenium and a half! 😃 OK that was cheeky. Sorry. 🙂 Just wanted to point out the whole “democracy of the dead” dynamic and get past current effective marketing schemes that get people’s attention.
 
AliciaCL said:
Protestants aren’t wrong, in large part they are misinformed. Their theology is incomplete. They have a huge lesson for us in their passion, and work in scripture study. We need to borrow from each other to forge futue unity.
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"Any road will take you there if you don’t know where you’re going." -Alice
😃
 
It’s very difficult to reply to this thread because there is no such entity as the Protestant “Church”. It would be more accurate to say Protestant “churches”. Since Protestantism is a disunity of faith, unlike Catholicism, I believe it is safe to assume that the Catholic Church has borne more fruit, since this unity of faith presupposes that the Catholic Church is the Church which Jesus promised would be led by the Holy Spirit in all truth. Meanwhile, we are not in a position to judge according to the spirituality of millions of individual members on both sides. 😉

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
talking about fruit, it wasn’t the apple in tree that caused the downfall of mankind, it was the pair on the ground.peace.
 
robert_ambrose said:
talking about fruit, it wasn’t the apple in tree that caused the downfall of mankind, it was the pair on the ground.peace.
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Robert, I take it you mean the “pear” on the ground. 😉

A boy who had neglected to do his Catechism homework was asked by his teacher to define the Holy Trinity. He answered: “I can’t tell you. It’s a mystery.”

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
Wouldnt more people want to be catholic? Wouldnt just as the early church had people being added daily to the church…wouldnt that be happenning? According to the NT the church had power and influence…
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The obsession with „church growth“ as the test of fruitful Christianity is a “prosperity gospel” sham. Many Protestants complain that they have trouble finding a church that has not „transitioned“ from a content-centered approach to an entertainment- and marketing-centered „way of doing church“. Yes, they acually call it that – „doing church“!

As for „church transitioning“ – a multi-million-dollar business field in the US – here is what it entails, in the words of Rick Warren himself: „I’m saying some people are going to have to die or leave. Moses had to wander around the desert for 40 years while God killed off a million people before he let them go into the Promised Land. That may be brutally blunt, but it’s true. There may be people in your church who love God sincerely, but who will never, ever change.“
Source:*pastors.com/RWMT/default.asp?id=263&artid=4533&expand=1

BTW, I often think that Catholics in places like Japan see an aspect of our faith that we are seldom aware of: the utter foreignness, counter-intuitiveness of it all, the edginess of the Eucharist that put a majority of Christ‘s own listeners to flight (John 6). If our minds could grasp this, there might be even fewer of us and even less question of marketing and popular appeal.
 
It seems that the Catholic Chruch is worried about how many people are leaving the church. They recently had a meeting of the Cardinals in Roman to discuss the problem. There was a artical about if in our local newspaper
 
allischalmers said:
It seems that the Catholic Chruch is worried about how many people are leaving the church. They recently had a meeting of the Cardinals in Roman to discuss the problem. There was a artical about if in our local newspaper
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It’s the Penecostals who have polterizing Catholics to go to their Churches. Though, there is also a grow of Catholicism in Africa and Asia, despite Catholics leaving the Church.
 
allischalmers said:
It seems that the Catholic Chruch is worried about how many people are leaving the church. They recently had a meeting of the Cardinals in Roman to discuss the problem. There was a artical about if in our local newspaper
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**I don’t believe in coddling adult Catholic Christians. They have the fullness of Faith. If they have questions, there is a plethora of resources available to them. People who leave the Church usually do so either because they have not been properly instructed in the Faith itself, or there is some teaching or behavior they disagree with that they themselves are engaged in. So, the next step is to find an community that accepts their ideas or behavior and encourages them to continue in whatever they are doing.

I am not worried about how ‘many’ are leaving the Church. For every one leaving there are two or three who are joining. Christ said that He would be with His Church until the end of days and the Holy Spirit will protect it from error. As Jesus Himself said, when He returns, will He find any faith on earth?**
 
Mannyfit75 said:
It’s the Penecostals who have polterizing Catholics to go to their Churches. Though, there is also a grow of Catholicism in Africa and Asia, despite Catholics leaving the Church.
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But this article says that it is in Africa, Asia and South America that the most defects are happening.
 
allischalmers said:
But this article says that it is in Africa, Asia and South America that the most defects are happening.
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I am aware of that. It’s not only in Catholicism, but because of the Protestant missionaries, they also infliltrated the Eastern Orthodox, and many of the Patriarchs are upset at this. I don’t think a large number of Catholics are leaving in droves. I read an article that despite the sex scandal, most Catholics still remain in their church. There are some number to leave but they are not a large number of exodus. But it is enough for the Vatican to take noticed.

I recall the Vatican released stats on Catholic population and reported the Catholic population has increased to 15 million new members. The Catholic population in England has now outnumbered Anglicans in that country. There has been a shifts in population density.

While Catholicism strength in Latin American weaken, and cause some to leave. There are those Catholics from those regions move to the US, and remain Catholic. There was also a report that the growing Hispanic community in the Catholic Churches has also been growing, and there aren’t enough priests to cover. In fact, many the bishops in Africa are sending missionaries to the US.
 
“if we desire to act the part of open enemies, not merely of secrete offenders, would there be any lacking of strenght, wether of numbers of resources? We are but of yesterday and we have already filled every place among you- cities, islands, fortresses,towns, marketplaces, tribes and so forth.we have left nothing for you but the temples of your idols.for it is the immense number of christians(catholics) which make your enemies so few.” St Tertullian - third century.
 
The Catholic Church - the Kingdom of God on earth - the Church produced from the mustard seed has grown so large are pervasive that no one can see it.

Externally it may seem as if a lot of Catholics are “out of it” – but I think Catholics can be deceived by Protestant standards. Look at EWTN vs TBN. TBN has preacher after preacher giving sermon after sermon – which has everyone all excited and the music is loud and the emotions are high and everyone feels so good. – do all these preachers have unity in doctrine? NO but the people are attracted to the preacher - or the message of that preacher; not to unity of doctrine.

But what about Catholic programming? G.K Chesterton – the gospel translated in social commentary. Thomas Aquinas for today – precision in theology. Father Corapi – evangelical preaching on the Catechism. Father Straub – the explanation of the ancient and unifying creeds of the Church Father Pacwa – explaining the thought of Pope John Paul II – or commenting on the book of Ephesians. Scott Hahn – bringing scriptural knowledge and Catholic doctrine together in its full beauty. Bookmark – author after author bringing the gifts of individual Catholic lives to the whole Church. and on and on it goes.

Which Church is trying to bring unity to all of Christendom? Only the Catholic Church is equipped to do such a bold and dramatic thing.

The Catholic Church has created not only a Church but has inspired a whole civilization and a culture – what we call Westen Civilization.

… and we are intimidated about a person who cannot see “fruit” in the Catholic Church.

That’s OK – our reward is not on earth or given by men but given to us in heaven by our Lord Jesus Christ.

MonFrere
 
how can unity be reached among us christians? i believe that the unity the CC is seeking is with the orthodoxy churches and maybe with anglicans. i am sorry but i dont see how catholics and protestants can ever be united. we dont believe in the same things, not the same doctrine, Bible interpretation is way off from ours. to be reunited people have to believe in the same things otherwise will bring much confusing. that is why we have much confusion on our church today i believe it is because of this idea that somehow we can all be together in one church. i see CC becoming more like protestants churches is it what we want? to become more like them or have them accept our doctrine ? I believe we should love one another and accept the protestants as they are. the Lord has bring many of them to the CC and he will continue to do so. but these are people who are willing to change and accept the CC as the true church. God bless.
 
wisdomseeker said:
how can unity be reached among us christians? i believe that the unity the CC is seeking is with the orthodoxy churches and maybe with anglicans. i am sorry but i dont see how catholics and protestants can ever be united. we dont believe in the same things, not the same doctrine,
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WisdonSeeker,

When I said only the Catholic Church was capable of bringing unity to Christendom I meant through the leadership of the Church in it’s ecumenical efforts. I agree that work with the Protestants will be the most difficult. But talking is the first step and at least the Protestants and some of the major confessions are coming to the table – Lutherans and Methodist (I believe). Pope Benedict is even trying to get the Muslims to come to the table and at least work out an improvement in relations. This we be even more protracted that talking to the Protestants BUT if it can help moderate Muslims separate from their radical counterparts it would be worth it. However, I think unity can only come from the top doing the heavy organizational and theological talk. Us laity need to be in the trenches doing the equally difficult work of loving our neighbor as ourselves.

MonFrere
 
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