Which Church teachings do you struggle to accept?

[Rau]

As I said I have read countless articles, no one seems to acknowledge the fact that the majority of catholics ignore this teaching.

Funny how you think that statistic (assuming it’s true) ought be instructive about what is right! Does the quantity of abortions in the U.S. influence your thinking on its morality? Or only the ones committed by Catholics? Or do you hold a position despite its prevalence?

 

[Tomdstone]

One survey or another or even another 3 - is just that. "a survey’

It is Not a counting of all Catholics…

How many “surveys” are done about who will win an election!!??

And that person the majority said they voted for – looses…

Such would be an example of the line “statistics lie”.
**Do you say that the surveys are wrong and that the majority of married American Catholic women are not using ABC?

 

[Bookcat]

Do you say that the surveys are wrong and that the majority of married American Catholic women are not using ABC?

In my statistics class I learned that yes surveys can be not representative etc.

Again just look at the surveys of political races…where they say one thing (or many from day to day!) and actual election says something else!

But again - what does it matter?

(of course those persons matter…but that was not the point there…)

*Truth is not determined by a survey or a vote.
*
See long post above.

 

[Tomdstone]

In my statistics class I learned that yes surveys can be not representative etc.

Again just look at the surveys of political races…where they say one thing (or many from day to day!) and actual election says something else.

But again - what does it matter?

(of course those person matter…not the point…)

*Truth is not determined by a survey or a vote.
*
See long post above.

(and that is one population anyhow…look at the places where the Church is growing in leaps and bounds…and look at the faithful Christians down the last 2000 years world wide…)

I don;t say that truth is determined by the majority. I only ask if you believe that the majority of married American Catholic women do not use ABC and if so, what supports this position?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

In my statistics class I learned that yes surveys can be not representative etc.

Again just look at the surveys of political races…where they say one thing (or many from day to day!) and actual election says something else!

But again - what does it matter?

(of course those persons matter…but that was not the point there…)

*Truth is not determined by a survey or a vote.
*
See long post above.

You don’t need a study to know that the majority of Catholic women are using ABC.

Take a look at how many children Catholic families have.

Jim

 

[Bookcat]

I don;t say that truth is determined by the majority. I only ask if you believe that the majority of married American Catholic women do not use ABC and if so, what supports this position?

What I noted above.

 

[Bookcat]

You don’t need a study to know that the majority of Catholic women are using ABC.

Take a look at how many children Catholic families have.

Jim

One would not do anyhow – a study is a study- not counting. So one would not really know. But yes it is granted that unfortunately too many have fallen into such use.

But that is not the point.

And there are other reasons why there are smaller families - infertility (people marrying older now), and NFP…

 

[Bookcat]

Even if the majority of persons on this earth thought the earth was flat?

Does that make it so?

Even if the majority of persons on this earth thought infanticide is good?

Does that make it so?

Even if the majority of persons on this earth thought contraception was good?

Does that make it so?

Even if the majority of person on this earth thought theft was good?

Does that make it so?

“Truth is not determined by a majority vote”

~ Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI)

…“or a survey” ~ Bookcat

 

[Tomdstone]

What I noted above.

What I get out of what you noted above was the following (let me know if I am wrong and where my mistake is):

1. You do not believe any of the surveys which show that the overwhelming majority of married American Catholic women use ABC.
2. You do not want to take a stand on the issue one way or the other.
3. You do not give any reason to support the idea that the majority of married American Catholic women do not use any form of ABC?
   Here is my idea on it:
   Yes, one survey can be wrong. Using the method of statistical sampling at the 2 sigma level, there is a 5% chance that the survey could be off. However, as you increase the number of surveys taken, and they all show the same thing, with none of them showing the contrary, and when the local parish priest says that he believes that almost all the married couples are using ABC, then I don’t see how an argument that all of these surveys and testimonials are wrong would be credible?
   At the same time, I repeat that I do not think that “truth” is determined by majority rule.

 

[Bookcat]

What I get out of what you noted above was the following (let me know if I am wrong and where my mistake is):

1. You do not believe any of the surveys which show that the overwhelming majority of married American Catholic women use-] ABC./-] contraception

I simply know that a survey is a quite limited tool…(and can also be distorted) - that such does not necessarily reflect the reality involved

1. You do not want to take a stand on the issue one way or the other. see last answer
2. You do not give any reason to support the idea that the majority of married American Catholic women do not use any form of -] ABC?/-] contraception see above answer – I am not a survey person- though they keep calling me and indeed I am on the phone right now as I write this!

At the same time, I repeat that I do not think that “truth” is determined by majority rule.

 

[Abu]

Burdock #363
That was because onan did nit fulfill his duties to hus deceased brothers wife as was jewish law at that time. It obviously does not apply in this day and age.

Totally false. God’s wrath was precisely because of Onan’s contraceptive act.

Fr John Echert has answered this.
Onan’s sin
Answer by Fr. John Echert (EWTN) on May-14-2006:
Extracts:
“The account of Onan’s refusal to carry out the obligation to raise up children in place of his brother is found in Genesis 38.

“By the ancient custom–later to become the law of God in the time of Moses–in order that the family name would live on through a man’s descendants, if a brother died leaving a widow and no sons, then it was the duty of his brother to take his widow as his own and produce offspring from the relationship. Onan not only failed to fulfill this command of God, but committed an additional violation of the law of God by spilling his seed on the ground, that is, withdrawal during the act of sexual intercourse. His sin was twofold and showed contempt for God and nature. Incidentally, this biblical account is important to keep in mind in the whole matter of contraception which is against the law of God and nature. Sexual intercourse is intended to be fruitful and one must have at least the openness to the possibility of new life; Onan showed contempt for life and law.

‘There are some who argue that the severe punishment of God upon Onan was for his failure to fulfill the Levirate law of raising up offspring; however, the punishment for this was specified by God as recorded in the book of Deuteronomy:
25:5 "If brothers dwell together, and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the dead shall not be married outside the family to a stranger; her husband’s brother shall go in to her, and take her as his wife, and perform the duty of a husband’s brother to her. 25:6 And the first son whom she bears shall succeed to the name of his brother who is dead, that his name may not be blotted out of Israel. 25:7 And if the man does not wish to take his brother’s wife, then his brother’s wife shall go up to the gate to the elders, and say, —My husband’s brother refuses to perpetuate his brother’s name in Israel; he will not perform the duty of a husband’s brother to me.’ 25:8 Then the elders of his city shall call him, and speak to him: and if he persists, saying, – I do not wish to take her,’ 25:9 then his brother’s wife shall go up to him in the presence of the elders, and pull his sandal off his foot, and spit in his face; and she shall answer and say, – So shall it be done to the man who does not build up his brother’s house.’ 25:10 And the name of his house shall be called in Israel, The house of him that had his sandal pulled off.”

“The penalty imposed by Mosaic Law was not a death sentence upon the guilty brother but public humiliation–a far cry from execution. This leads us to conclude that the death punishment upon Onan was not for his failure to raise up posterity for his deceased brother, but for the crime of wasting the seed upon the ground – a primitive and vulgar form of contraception. Incidentally, with regards to contraception, many people today are ignorant of the fact that many forms of contraception actually act as an abortifacient – they kill the newly conceived child in some manner.” [My emphasis].

 

[onenow1]

Am I the only person here on CAF who struggle to accept Church teachings on different issues? I love the Mass, believe in the True Presence, and absolutely adore the Holy Mother, but there are three issues that I cannot come to grips with:

1. The ban on ABC

2.  Divorced people that cannot receive the Eucharist if they have remarried without 
     obtaining an annulment from the Church.

3.  LGBTQ individuals are expected to live celebate lives until they die.

What are the issues that you deal with and pray about on a daily basis? Thank you all , in advance for being honest.

None to date. I have trouble with folks that do not believe the CC is the one true Church.

Jesus said to the Apostles, he who hears you hears me; and that is the crux of the matter.

God Bless
onenow1

 

[MarkInOregon]

Euthanasia. I think that those who are terminally ill should be able to end their lives with dignity.

However, I am not a 2000 year old extention of Christ. If we only submit to doctrine and dogma we agree with, that isn’t obedience, that’s just agreeing. Therefore the views of the Church must be right, and I must be wrong.

So you would say living out your life to the end as Pope John Paul II did–was not dignified? I am curious why ending your life --is considered the dignified way by so many? I’d understand more if you had said “end their suffering” instead.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[Rau]

So you would say living out your life to the end as Pope John Paul II did–was not dignified? I am curious why ending your life --is considered the dignified way by so many? I’d understand more if you had said “end their suffering” instead.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

A friend of mine is passionate on this subject. He dreads the experience of his elderly relatives. Severe dementia to the point of losing the capability to swallow. Lengthy confinement to bed, bed sores, physically decaying skin, stench… Horrible experience for both the dying and their loved ones. That is how he expresses it. And so he objects to the State making a law to prevent him from defining his wishes and seeking them to carry them out if and when the time comes.

Subtly different is the matter of medical personnel and/or relatives deciding to end the life of the dying.

 

[Tomdstone]

A friend of mine is passionate on this subject. He dreads the experience of his elderly relatives. Severe dementia to the point of losing the capability to swallow. Lengthy confinement to bed, bed sores, physically decaying skin, stench… Horrible experience for both the dying and their loved ones. That is how he expresses it. And so he objects to the State making a law to prevent him from defining his wishes and seeking them to carry them out if and when the time comes.

Subtly different is the matter of medical personnel and/or relatives deciding to end the life of the dying.

There is euthanasia and there is not using extraordinary means to preserve the life of someone on her deathbed.

 

[Rau]

There is euthanasia and there is not using extraordinary means to preserve the life of someone on her deathbed.

Correct. Though in the scenarios my friend referred to, no extraordinary means were being employed. Rather, he preferred, and would prefer for himself, means to be used to bring about the death.

 

[Tomdstone]

Correct. Though in the scenarios my friend referred to, no extraordinary means were being employed. Rather, he preferred, and would prefer for himself, means to be used to bring about the death.

And what does your friend think about the Commandment: Thou shalt not kill?

 

[Rau]

And what does your friend think about the Commandment: Thou shalt not kill?

In respect of “himself” - he believes he has an innate right over ‘his’ body/life.

In respect of (say) his elderly relatives, he can’t conceive of it being any form of affront to them to have them leave this earth expeditiously when the end is evident and imminent, and the present miserable, or perhaps even ‘absent’.

I think this is pretty much how he sees it.

He is not religious. And its not the kind of topic I’d question anyone about too closely when the events that formed their position are ‘close and personal’.

 

[Hans_W]

Concerning contraception, I just posted this link on another thread. The article written in 1993, 25 years after the Humanae Vitae came out: americamagazine.org/issue/100…25-years-later

Make sure to read the comments as well. It was highly controversial back in 1968. It probably got less controversial today because the majority of Catholics in First World countries simply ignore.

Any comments?

 

[Hans_W]

Here is a link to an article concerning contraception I posted on another thread:americamagazine.org/issue/100/humanae-vitae-25-years-later

It was written written in 1993, 25 years after the Humanae Vitae came out.
Make sure to read the comments as well. It was highly controversial back in 1968. It probably got less controversial over time because the majority of Catholics in First World countries simply ignore it.

Any comments?