Which Church teachings do you struggle to accept?

[Rau]

Holy Scripture says that women will be saved through the bearing of children. I struggle to see where in the Bible it says that women will be saved by using NFP to avoid having children?
1 Timothy 2:15
But women will be saved through childbearing–if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

I didn’t see any reference to the number of children, Tom. It certainly does not advocate child bearing children beyond the dictates of responsibility!

I should add - there is not, from the outset of marriage, a “requirement” to consciously space / time children. But IMHO, there would come a time for almost all parents (who are able to conceive) when considering this matter becomes a responsibility.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

As you should know the debate is about the natural moral law. The world is in chaos because of this dichotomy between the precepts of natural moral law and the flight from reason. The ancient Egyptians and the pagan Cicero, before Christ, acknowledged the natural moral law: Cicero (died 43 B.C.) wrote in De Republica, 3.22: “True law is right reason in agreement with nature. It is of universal application, unchanging, everlasting. We cannot be freed from it by Senate or people. This law is not one thing at Rome and another at Athens, but is eternal and immutable, valid for all nations and for all times. God is the Author of it, its promulgator, and its enforcing judge. Whoever is disobedient to it is abandoning his true self and denying his own nature.”

Natural Law is “a law that is in principle accessible to human reason and not dependent on (though entirely compatible with and, indeed, illumined by) divine revelation.” (The Clash of Orthodoxies, Professor Robert P George (Princeton), 2001, p 169).

zenit.org/en/articles/papal-address-on-natural-law
Address Of His Holiness Benedict XVI To The Participants In The
International Congress On Natural Law
Clementine Hall
Monday, 12 February 2007
'It is precisely in the light of this contestation that all the urgency of the necessity to reflect upon the theme of natural law and to rediscover its truth common to all men appears. The said law, to which the Apostle Paul refers (cf. Rom 2:14-15), is written on the heart of man and is consequently, even today, accessible.

'This law has as its first and general principle, “to do good and to avoid evil.” This is a truth which by its very evidence immediately imposes itself on everyone. From it flows the other more particular principles that regulate ethical justice on the rights and duties of everyone.

'They are, in fact,** norms that precede any human law: as such, they are not subject to modification by anyone. The natural law, together with fundamental rights, is the source from which ethical imperatives also flow, which it is only right to honor**.

'Natural law is, definitively, the only valid bulwark against the arbitrary power or the deception of ideological manipulation. The knowledge of this law inscribed on the heart of man increases with the progress of the moral conscience.

’The first duty for all, and particularly for those with public responsibility, must therefore be to promote the maturation of the moral conscience. This is the fundamental progress without which all other progress proves non-authentic.

‘What has been said up to this point has very concrete applications if one refers to the family, that is, to "the intimate partnership of life and the love which constitutes the married state… established by the Creator and endowed by him with its own proper laws" (Gaudium et Spes, n. 48).’ [My emphases].

Good Morning Abu: Aside from all the ancient human wisdom you have provided on the matter above, can you tell me in your own words what evidence you personally have observed in the world around you that there is such a thing as morality in the natural order? Convince me that it isn’t just a construct of human thinking.

All t he best,
Gary

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Gary, that’s only because you have an erroneous concept of natural Law. You might state your understanding of it to confirm.

Laws are created in the minds of people. We then convey the frameworks and templates we apply to the conduct of our affairs to our thinking about the world around us and assume that it too has laws. I am suggesting that there are no laws of any sort outside of the human mind.

All the best,
Gary

 

[Rau]

Laws are created in the minds of people. We then convey the frameworks and templates we apply to the conduct of our affairs to our thinking about the world around us and assume that it too has laws. I am suggesting that there are no laws of any sort outside of the human mind.

All the best,
Gary

Sure, but are those “laws” created in the mind or uncovered in the mind? Did masses attract each other (gravity) before man existed? Are all evils merely deemed such by man, or are some reasoned to be such?

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Sure, but are those “laws” created in the mind or uncovered in the mind? Did masses attract each other (gravity) before man existed? Are all evils merely deemed such by man, or are some reasoned to be such?

Was there a law tat defined how gravity would cause masses to attract when there was only helium and nitrogen in the universe and no complex elements or compounds with which to build objects with mass?

What we see are simply patterns in behavior. We cannot say that something oversees or governs how they act. They can simply be learned or acquired behaviors.

As for evil, is that anything more than a human idea? What is evil to a star or a planet or a lion or a rock or a river or a giraffe? Tell me how evil existed before there were minds to create the idea and then take for granted that it is something other than a projection?

All the best,
Gary

 

[Rau]

Was there a law tat defined how gravity would cause masses to attract when there was only helium and nitrogen in the universe and no complex elements or compounds with which to build objects with mass?

What we see are simply patterns in behavior. We cannot say that something oversees or governs how they act. They can simply be learned or acquired behaviors.

As for evil, is that anything more than a human idea? What is evil to a star or a planet or a lion or a rock or a river or a giraffe? Tell me how evil existed before there were minds to create the idea and then take for granted that it is something other than a projection?

All the best,
Gary

Hydrogen atom (and even elementary particles) have mass and are attracted to other atoms. This was the case long before man expressed a law to describe it.

Morality is not a meaningful concept other than as it applies to man. It is part of what makes us unique.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Hydrogen atom (and even elementary particles) have mass and are attracted to other atoms. This was the case long before man expressed a law to describe it.

The point was to ask where was the law with respect to how hydrogen and helium would react with heavier compounds and complex polymers before the latter evolved?

Morality is not a meaningful concept other than as it applies to man. It is part of what makes us unique

I agree.

All the best
Gary

 

[Rau]

The point was to ask where was the law with respect to how hydrogen and helium would react with heavier compounds and complex polymers before the latter evolved?

Unexpressed. Not yet in evidence. But, inevitable.

 

[fred_conty]

Hi Gary. Here are a few ideas on natural law.

Paul, in Rom. 2:14-15, makes note of a natural law when discussing those of his own time who were never bound by Old Testament law: “When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts . . .”

CCC 2072
“Since they express man’s fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations. They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. The Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.”

Our constitution was based on this, that men have inalienable rights recognized by all. And our present day human rights in the world are based on this. War crimes are seen as crimes against humanity. Even primative tribes know what is mine and what is thine.

May God our Father give you grace and peace.

 

[Bookcat]

What is needed? (for all of us …)

A renewal of the mind

“In the second verse we are given the answer: “Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God…” (12: 2). The two decisive words of this verse are “transformed” and “renewal”. We must become new people, transformed into a new mode of existence.”

“Paul makes this process of “recasting” even clearer by saying that we become new if we transform our way of thinking. What has been introduced here with “way of thinking” is the Greek term “nous”. It is a complex word. It may be translated as “spirit”, “sentiments”, “reason”, and precisely, also by “way of thinking”. Thus our reason must become new. This surprises us. We might have expected instead that this would have concerned some attitude: what we should change in our behaviour. But no: renewal must go to the very core. Our way of looking at the world, of understanding reality all our thought must change from its foundations…”

~ Pope Benedict XVI

Go read the rest -there is much there for reflection:

(very rich and helpful --a very profound work):

vatican.va/holy_father/be…aolino_en.html

(starts second paragraph–read to end -though do not miss the first paragraph on another subject…)

 

[kozlosap]

I see they moved this from the Moral to Spirituality forum. Took me a few minutes to find it!
Once again, thank you all for posting. It’s obvious that posters have really thought about their dilemmas. It is so telling that the vast majority of issues that people disagree with are NOT theological in nature, but SOCIAL. This must be quite common in the Industrialized West where a majority of Church members are educated beyond sixth grade.

 

[Rau]

I see they moved this from the Moral to Spirituality forum. Took me a few minutes to find it!
Once again, thank you all for posting. It’s obvious that posters have really thought about their dilemmas. It is so telling that the vast majority of issues that people disagree with are NOT theological in nature, but SOCIAL. This must be quite common in the Industrialized West where a majority of Church members are educated beyond sixth grade.

What a surprise, it’s the stuff that directly affects people, the stuff that directly sets limits on personal freedom. And what explanation do you offer - a reference to the education of people. “How could an educated person accept that stuff”, eh? That’s right up there with catch cry of “marriage equality” and “the right to choose”.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Unexpressed. Not yet in evidence. But, inevitable.

Good Evening Rau. Can you explain the thought process behind it being inevitable?

All the best,
Gary

 

[gracepoole]

I see they moved this from the Moral to Spirituality forum. Took me a few minutes to find it!
Once again, thank you all for posting. It’s obvious that posters have really thought about their dilemmas. It is so telling that the vast majority of issues that people disagree with are NOT theological in nature, but SOCIAL. This must be quite common in the Industrialized West where a majority of Church members are educated beyond sixth grade.

I’ve said this more than once around here – there’s a reason why Catholics in more economically deprived communities don’t ask the same questions that are asked elsewhere and to me, education seems to be a significant reason.

That said, based on the responses I’ve received to this sort of claim in the past…

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I’ve said this more than once around here – there’s a reason why Catholics in more economically deprived communities don’t ask the same questions that are asked elsewhere and to me, education seems to be a significant reason.

That said, based on the responses I’ve received to this sort of claim in the past…

Well, there’s education and there’s education.

My father (born in 1900) had to go to work to help support his family when he was 9. He had a 3rd grade education only. Yet his grammar was impeccable, his manners polished, his understanding and his fund of knowledge were that of a college-educated man. A person, even a person living today, even living in the US, can have an elementary school education and have a wider and broader grasp of everything from history to mathematics to general knowledge than a person with a high school or even college degree.

A lack of money and a lack of formal education do not mean that a person is necessarily ill-educated, parochial in thinking, rigid and limited, any more than a surplus of money and a terminal degree mean that a person is thus on a par with Ken Jennings when it comes to knowledge.

When one considers that arguably the greatest century in Europe (the 13th) is still celebrated for the works achieved, from Gothic cathedrals to Marco Polo’s journey to Dante’s Divine Comedy, yet the majority of the people who helped to build and to learn and to pass on those works were illiterate and by economic standards poverty-stricken, it might give one pause. . .especially when one considers that Europe was Catholic. . .

 

[Rau]

I’ve said this more than once around here – there’s a reason why Catholics in more economically deprived communities don’t ask the same questions that are asked elsewhere and to me, education seems to be a significant reason.

That said, based on the responses I’ve received to this sort of claim in the past…

The role of education in broadening perspectives, encouraging questioning and intellectual pursuits is not likely to be disputed. No argument there. The idea that education and Christian morality are incompatible is however nonsense.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

I’ve said this more than once around here – there’s a reason why Catholics in more economically deprived communities don’t ask the same questions that are asked elsewhere and to me, education seems to be a significant reason.

That said, based on the responses I’ve received to this sort of claim in the past…

Good Evening Gracepool: I am curious to know the differences you see in the questions. What sorts of questions do the poor ask as opposed to the wealthy, or as you put it - uneducated v. educated, and what subjects are the questions pertaining to? I took it to be philosophy or religion but then I thought to my self that I might be assuming, so I thought I’d better ask.

All the best,
Gary

 

[Errham]

The concept of the Trinity. This is by far the most difficult thing to come to terms with for Jewish and Muslim converts. In Judaism and Islam, God is God, the omnipotent being. Nothing more, nothing less. The idea that God is actually three persons united as one God simply isn’t something that people raised in that school of thought can wrap their heads around. Usually they just think of it as polytheism. While I believe fully now, it was a very sticky issue during my early days as a catechumen.

 

[someperson555]

The concept of the Trinity. This is by far the most difficult thing to come to terms with for Jewish and Muslim converts. In Judaism and Islam, God is God, the omnipotent being. Nothing more, nothing less. The idea that God is actually three persons united as one God simply isn’t something that people raised in that school of thought can wrap their heads around. Usually they just think of it as polytheism. While I believe fully now, it was a very sticky issue during my early days as a catechumen.

One way to explain it is that God is a multi dimensional being. The father is our creator, christ is the true self of every human being after the ego has been overcome, and the holy spirit is the truth. Or something like that lol.

 

[Errham]

One way to explain it is that God is a multi dimensional being. The father is our creator, christ is the true self of every human being after the ego has been overcome, and the holy spirit is the truth. Or something like that lol.

Actually, the best way to describe it that I’ve heard is old St. Patrick’s three leaf cover.