Which Church

[Sir_Knight]

Fr Ambrose:

If the keys were given only to Peter, why do Catholic statues and holy pictures show bishops holding the keys?

Why is St Jude shown holding a caveman’s club?

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Fr Ambrose:

What is now the Roman Catholic Church was, until around 1054, one of the Five Patriarchates of the Christian world. There was Rome, Jerusalem, Constantinople, Antioch and Alexandria. All of them enjoyed love and communion for 1000 years.

Then, in the 11th century, Rome broke communion with the other four Patriarchates.

These four Patriarchates remained in unity and today they are still the more important Churches in the Orthodox world. Sadly, Rome is now in isolation from her ancient sister Churches.

Father Ambrose, do you consider the Roman Catholics to have valid sacraments? What about the Saints,Saint Francis,St.Padre Pio,ect.?I am not trying to needle,I am at a point of ignorance here.I was taught in RCIA that the Orthodox Church had valid sacraments and like I told you last night, I had never experienced an underlying tension.God Bless

 

[Exporter]

In answer to your question:

Go read Matthew16:v 16 thru’19.

Jesus Christ tells Peter that He (Christ) will build His Church on him (Peter). Since Peter and the other Apostles started the Catholic Church…it is obvious that The Catholic Church is the one true Church of Jesus Christ.

 

[Exporter]

Originally Posted by Fr Ambrose
If the keys were given only to Peter, why do Catholic statues and holy pictures show bishops holding the keys?
That’s easy Father. Bishops are holding keys in holy pictures because the sucessors of Peter and the Apostles were made Bishops. And with the laying on of hands the keys to the Kingdom of God were passed on to the newer Bishops. Did you think that Jesus would leave the keys just to the Apostles and Peter? Jesus said He would always be with the Church. So the Bishops through time had to have the keys to the Kingdom.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Sir Knight:

Why is St Jude shown holding a caveman’s club?

One tradition is that he was beaten to death with a club, or perhaps either beheaded or crucified after being beaten.

oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Feasts-and-Saints/June/Jun-19.html#1

After the Ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ, St. Jude traveled about preaching the Gospel. He propagated the faith in Christ at first in Judea, Galilee, Samaria and Idumaia, and later in the lands of Arabia, Syria and Mesopotamia. Finally, he went to the city of Edessa. Here he finished the work that was not completed by his predecessor, St. Thaddeus, Apostle of the Seventy (August 21). There is a tradition that St. Jude went to Persia, where he wrote his catholic Epistle in Greek. In the Epistle much profound truth was expressed in a few words.

St. Jude’s Epistle speaks about the Holy Trinity, about the Incarnation of the Lord Jesus Christ, about the good and bad angels, and about the dread Last Judgement. The Apostle urges believers to guard themselves against fleshly impurity, to be diligent in prayer, faith and love, to convert the lost to the path of salvation, and to guard themselves from the teachings of heretics. He also says that it is not enough just to be converted to Christianity, but faith must be demonstrated by good works. He cites the rebellious angels and men punished by God (verses 6 ff.) to support this.

The Holy Apostle Jude died as a martyr around the year 80 near Mt. Ararat in Armenia, where he was crucified and pierced by arrows.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Lisa4Catholics:

Father Ambrose, do you consider the Roman Catholics to have valid sacraments?

It’s an honest question but I do not want to give offence on a Catholic Forum. Can I say that I believe they are as valid as they can be.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Fr Ambrose:

It’s an honest question but I do not want to give offence on a Catholic Forum. Can I say that I believe they are as valid as they can be.

The situation is more serious than I thought,I am going to pray that God fix this mess:crying: God Bless

 

[Exporter]

Fr Ambrose:

When all the shouting has died down, take a look at this Timeline of the Church…

It’s in .pdf format so you need Adobe Reader

odox.net/A%20Timeline%20of%20Church%20History.pdf

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This diagram was drawn by someone at an Orythodox Monastery, located in Austin, Texas. Obviously they would decide to draw the diagram to show that the Roman Catholic Church wass an offshoot of the Orthodox Church. If you cut a pie so that you have two peices, one is one-forth of the pie and the other is three-forths of the pie - will you say the 1/4th is as you take it away is the offshoot of the whole pie? Of course. What is called Orthodox were the ones to make the decision to break away. So they broke away.

About the validity of the sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church : Of course they are valid! Father Ambrose was being a bit cute with his answer to this. We know that Apostolic sucession occured, The Bishops of today have a Pedigree, they can trace their linage thru Bishops all the way back to the Early Fathers.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

*************************************************************************
This diagram was drawn by someone at an Orythodox Monastery, located in Austin, Texas. Obviously they would decide to draw the diagram to show that the Roman Catholic Church wass an offshoot of the Orthodox Church. If you cut a pie so that you have two peices, one is one-forth of the pie and the other is three-forths of the pie - will you say the 1/4th is as you take it away is the offshoot of the whole pie? Of course. What is called Orthodox were the ones to make the decision to break away. So they broke away.

About the validity of the sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church : Of course they are valid! Father Ambrose was being a bit cute with his answer to this. We know that Apostolic sucession occured, The Bishops of today have a Pedigree, they can trace their linage thru Bishops all the way back to the Early Fathers.

I know they are valid Eporter I was just disturbed by the deep seeded angst against Holy Mother Church:crying: I really don’t understand the hostility, and the Pope who is so sick prays and tries so hard to unite East and West because Our Lord wanted us to be one,it is just sad, thats all.God Bless

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

The Bishops of today have a Pedigree, they can trace their linage thru Bishops all the way back to the Early Fathers.

Cute?! Who…me??

Just a few hours back Irish Melkite wrote a great explanation of the different approach to sacramental validity and apostolic succession (from which sacramental validity depends) between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.

I’ll just post the more important sections but I really recommend reading both his posts on this topic
Post #1
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=371151&postcount=103
and Post #2
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=371152&postcount=104

**The Augustinian theory ** effectively holds that valid episcopal ordination confers an indelible character that is not affected by any schismatic or heretical act or excommunication taken in response thereto or for any other reason. Accordingly, a validly ordained priest once validly ordained to the episcopate retains his capacity to exercise that order, though he may have been deprived juridically of the office or jurisdiction by which he performed episcopal acts. The latter considerations affect only the licitness of his acts.

**The Cyprianic theory ** effectively holds that a valid episcopal ordination is affected by schismatic or heretical acts and by excommunication taken in response thereto or for any other reason. Accordingly, a validly ordained priest once validly ordained to the episcopate retains his capacity to exercise that order only so long as he continues in communion with the jurisdiction under the authority of which he was ordained to the episcopate (or such other jurisdiction into which he may have subsequently been accepted) and is exercising the office or jurisdiction by which he has the right to perform those acts. There is no distinction made as to licitness.

The Catholic Church adheres to the Augustinian theory; the Orthodox Churches to the Cyprianic theory, (although they have exercised oekonomia in application of it to instances in which schismatic bodies have returned to communion).

Frankly, the Augustinian theory has been or certainly has become a thorn in the side of the Catholic Church. It effectively assures that all manner of independent hierarchs, both those who pursue their perceived vocation with spiritual and intellectual honesty and those who are episcopi vagante in the most perjorative connotation accorded to the phrase, can sleep at night with at least a modicum of assurance that they possess valid episcopal orders, unless form or intent are at issue. The time-honored practice in the so-called “independent” Catholic and Orthodox movements of garnering multiple episcopal consecrations or, subsequently, being re-consecrated sub conditione is effectively a means of leveraging the Augustinian theory.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Lisa4Catholics:

I know they are valid Eporter I was just disturbed by the deep seeded angst against Holy Mother Church:crying: I really don’t understand the hostility,

Dear Lisa4Catholics,

I don’t think there is any deep seated angst and nor is there any hostility.

You asked:

Father Ambrose, do you consider the Roman Catholics to have valid sacraments?

I replied:

It’s an honest question but I do not want to give offence on a Catholic Forum. Can I say that I believe they are as valid as they can be.

In some ways there is a parallel here between the Catholic attitude to Anglican sacraments and the Orthodox attitude to Catholic ones. But I would not accuse the Catholics of angst and hostility against the Anglicans/Episcopalians because they refuse to recognise Anglican sacraments such as the Eucharist and the Priesthood. That must be dreadfully painful for Anglicans to hear but Catholics are obliged by their own teaching and by the pope to say so honestly.

Our Churches, in all ecumenical dialogue, must speak the truth in love. It’s not always easy. But I am sure that none of us are speaking out of any hostility.

 

[Anne_Carmel]

Do to a hijacking of this thread it is now closed.