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PRmerger
Guest
And then when the synod speaks in finality, one must submit to its authority?Then neither did Athanasius, Nikolaos, or Catherine of Sienna.
Read the next sentence, too.
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Faithdancer
Guest
I can never agree with you that the Bible is the source of chaos and confusion unless it is interpreted for us by Rome. That is the Roman Catholic position, is it not?
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Actually, it would. It proves that sola scriptura and private judgment have destroyed the unity of the Church that Jesus prayed for in John 17.
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PRmerger
Guest
Unless it is interpreted for us by the Faith given once for all to the saints.
Without the magisterium, we get this obscenity of tens of thousands of differing denominations, each claiming their interpretation of Scripture is the correct one.
It is an obscenity.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
No. The Catholic position is that the Word of God is transmitted through Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition properly interpreted by the Magisterium of the Church.
Sola scriptura is a self-refuting novelty, a tradition of Protestant men.
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steido01
Guest
If the synod has defended the Faith as professed by the Apostles, recorded in Holy Scripture, and reflected in the Confessions, yes. If not, be like Paul and continue to tell off Peter. Or be like Nick and deck the heretic. Or be like Athanasius and call out the Ariansâs heresy. Or be like Catherine and keep petitioning the Bishop for reform. Or be like Martin and burn a papal bull. Best case scenario, you effect reform; worst case, you request for more hay for your temporal pyre.
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Faithdancer
Guest
And where does that Faith reside? Where does it come from?
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Faith comes from God through the Church.
169 Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: "We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation."55 Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.
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Faithdancer
Guest
I donât think Iâve ever seen the words âBible,â âHoly Spirit,â and obscenity used in one sentence together. More to the point, if the Bible and the Holy Spirit are intimately involved, how can obscenity ever be the result?
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PRmerger
Guest
Well, that leaves every single Lutheran with the exit possibility, just like Fr. Martin used.
âI am compelled to defy the authority of the synod because the synod has departed from the Faith as professed by the Apostles.â
Itâs kind of like the exception clause for late term abortionsâthe nebulous and otiose âlife of the motherâ fits every single reason any person could have for wanting to have a late term abortion.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
First, Satan quoted scripture, so just referencing a Bible is no guarantee of holiness.
Second, everyone claims to be led by the Spirit into all truth, but people hold contradictory positions.
Should infants be baptized? Some say yes; other say no. All claim to be basing their positions of Scripture and the Holy Spirit.
So, the problem is not the Holy Spirit; the problem is people claiming guidance from the Spirit as justification for following their own inclinations.
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Faithdancer
Guest
Wow, sorry, canât go there.âFor by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,â (Ephesians 2:8). No mention is made here of the RCC- or any other denomination, for that matter.
If there were suddenly only one person left alive on Earth, for whatever reason, I believe that one person would only have to repent, to believe in Jesus Christ and to have faith in Him as Lord and Savior, to be saved. No other intermediary would be required,
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PRmerger
Guest
Thatâs exactly right, Faithdancer. Exactly right.
The Holy Spirit does not lead you to chaos and confusion. It does not generate tens of thousands of denominations.
There are numerous conclusions to be drawn from the obscenity of these denominations.
To wit: the Holy Spirit isnât actually guiding you when you read the Bible and personally interpret it contrary to the Faith given once for all.
A magisterium is needed to guide the faithful, as the faithful are fallible, and will therefore be destined to erroneously interpret the Scriptures.
âMe, the Holy Spirit and my Bibleâ doesnât work. It is exactly what the Enemy hoped for.
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Faithdancer
Guest
This is well known, but I think it is a non-sequitur in this context.
But the original reference to the Holy Spirit, by PRMerger, said nothing about âclaim.â Neither did I. The simple question remains: if the Holy Spirit and Holy Scripture are intimately involved, how can obscenity be the result?
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Randy_Carson
Guest
First, I acknowledge that the source of Faith is God.
Second, apart from the Church, you would have no Bible, no Tradition and no teaching authority by which you might know what is true and what is false.
Who would tell that person about Jesus?
He could just as easily pick up the Book of Morman or the Qurâan as the Bible.
But letâs suppose that he did manage to find a Bible, read it, and understand it to the point that he repented of his sins and believed, etc.
Great!
But who wrote the New Testament? Catholics.
Who discerned which books should even be included in the NT? Catholics.
Who preserved copies of the manuscripts for over a thousand years by hand? Catholics.
Who preached and promoted the Gospel to all nations for 1500 years before Luther? Catholics.
So, this person has received all that he knows of Jesus through the Catholic Church.
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PRmerger
Guest
ExceptâŚWow, sorry, canât go there.âFor by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,â (Ephesians 2:8). No mention is made here of the RCC- or any other denomination, for that matter.
exceptâŚ
that the ONLY way you received this verse from Scripture isâŚ
wait for itâŚ
throughâŚ
theâŚ
Catholic Church.
You cannot have the Bible without the Catholic Church.
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PRmerger
Guest
The logical conclusion is: your claim to have the Holy Spirit guiding you to depart from the Catholic Faith isnât actually a true claim. The Holy Spirit didnât guide you. You guided yourself.
Here, of course, âyouâ is not a personal âyouâ but a rhetorical âyouâ.
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Faithdancer
Guest
Once again, the number of Christian denominations proves nothing. Neither does the supposed monolithicity of the Roman Catholic Church, with its leadership of âprinces,â prove that all other Christian denominations are false.
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PRmerger
Guest
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PRmerger
Guest
It proves that without a magisterium to guide oneâs interpretation of the Bible, chaos and confusion results.
QED
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