Which Church??

[Topper17]

Hi ben,

Thanks for your response.

Choose your own stumbling block. Of course it would be nice for all to be perfect catechists.

Actually we did not chose the stumbling block. After all it was not the Catholic Church which chose to depict the Pope as the anti-Christ, the mass as the work of Satan, or to teach that the property of the Church should be stolen (from itself). The stumbling block(s) were chosen FOR the Church by its opponents.

Amen. The second vatican finally recognized these other 30,000 churches as containing “salvation and grace”. Of course CC takes credit for this, yet the fact is saints across full spectrum of denominations, including CC, will gain entrance into heaven with rewards, based according to His good graces to the individual saint, and not "affiliation’’. It is in the pudding as you correctly say. Some Catholic pudding is better than P pudding and vice versa. It is an individual thing for we are all His workmanship. He be the cook. So which “church” might be important, and it might not be. The Lord definitely has more choices now on where to water His sheep. May the world recognize our good works not as C or P but as His followers. All churches, even CC, has criteria for not communing with others.

The number whether it be 30,000, or 35,000, or literally ANY number is normally refuted by some, and partially it is because of the various competing and conflicting definitions of the term ‘denomination’, which by the way is just one more thing that Protestants cannot agree on. For the purpose of this discussion, how about defining a denomination as being any body which independently defines and determines its doctrinal beliefs without any outside ‘influence’? In other words, any group which does not look towards a central authority higher than itself would be a ‘denomination’. Given that the Roman Catholic Church looks towards ONE central authority, it would be deemed as a 1,100,000,000 member ‘denomination’ under this definition.

With this as a guideline, then the little strip mall church that operated for 18 months, about a quarter of a mile from my house, before failing, would certainly qualify as a denomination. If you were to count all of those types of doctrinally independent congregations, the 35,000 figure would represent only a small fraction of the total.

The 30,000 number indicates that, mathematically, each Protestant communion will splint once every 27 years. As such if the true number is 30,000 today (which again is conservative) then the number in 2041 will be 60,000.

Ben, do you think that THAT number – 60,000, will finally convince the majority of Protestants that Sola Scriptura is NOT a teaching of Christ, the Apostles OR of Holy Scripture? If not, then how high must the number rise before it becomes apparent that Sola Scriptura has resulted in, and in fact cannot result in anything other than, the exact opposite of the unity that Christ and Scripture called for?

God Bless You ben, Topper

 

[benhur]

The argument is that “only God knows” who is in the Church and who isn’t

.Who says this? I know many here say it is beyond their job description to know who shall be a saint or not.

Consequently, because it has no one visible organizational structure and no single visible head (as in Catholicism) the Church is “invisible”.

Understand. All or nothing .Either or. There can not be 2 or 4 or 30,000 organizations in Christ’s Body nor leaders as in twelve.

Protestants have a subset of the total known revelation of God. Here is a diagram:

http://www2.lv.psu.edu/ojj-rcm27/images/100subset.gif

All that may be known about God is U (extending infinitely in all directions). The Catholic Church knows B which represents the total extent of public revelation. Non-Catholic denominations are represented by A, and A will be of varying sizes depending on which non-Catholic group is being considered. A would be large for Orthodoxy and much smaller for Mormonism, for example.

There is no known truth about God that the Catholic Church does not have; therefore, no part of A is represented outside of B.

Thank you. The diagram is a bit skewed in this regard: I would make B the size of a grain of rice and A a portion of that, all on an 8 1/2 by 11 sheet of paper being God’s knowledge(U). Proper perspective makes our quibbling seem vain or moot.

 

[Adamski]

As a former Fundamentalist , I would often hear about “agreeing on the essentials”, however, many essentials were not agreed upon in Protestantism, including salvation. If Protestants think all of Chritendom is the church, I guess that doesn’t mean Catholicism.

Hi my name is pastor Bob here we"major on the majors and minor on the minors" would you like a latte while you watch the show

 

[Jubilarian]

There is no such church as “The Protestant Church”. The term protestant comes from the 1529 2nd Diet at Speyer, where, briefly, the practice of religious activities which was approved at the first Diet of Speyer were being rescinded. The non-Catholics there offered a formal “protest”, hence the term protestant.

From the perspectice of my tradition, the Church is the congregation of believers, where the word is preached and the sacraments administered. From that perspective, the Catholic Church is indeed part of the Church. As are we.

Jon

But they talk about the “Church” all the time. What are they talking about?

 

[benhur]

Ben-

I have been involved in these discussion for years. I even went to the publisher’s office here in Cary, NC to see the books which give that number with my own eyes.

Now, you can take issue with the number being 30,000, but you can’t really deny that the true number is huge. Crazy huge. And it’s a far cry from the One that Jesus promised to build.

Understand. Sometimes I let folks have their way and say the number is actually millions per some definitions, even as I think about what they said Luther or he about himself, each man is his own "pope’’. It is not solo scriptura that is to be blamed, but that rascally and even abused but so necessary personal, irrespector of persons, divine revelation.

 

[PRmerger]

It is not solo scriptura that is to be blame

Of course it is.

It’s the idea that all you need is the unholy trinity of me, the Bible and the Holy Spirit that leads to this obscenity of tens of thousands of Christian denominations.

It’s when someone says, “I don’t need a magisterium to tell me what to believe” that one gets this monstrosity.

 

[benhur]

http://www2.lv.psu.edu/ojj-rcm27/images/100subset.gif

All that may be known about God is U (extending infinitely in all directions). The Catholic Church knows B which represents the total extent of public revelation. Non-Catholic denominations are represented by A, and A will be of varying sizes depending on which non-Catholic group is being considered. A would be large for Orthodoxy and much smaller for Mormonism, for example.

There is no known truth about God that the Catholic Church does not have; therefore, no part of A is represented outside of B.

Makes me think of quality over quantity. Makes me think of Gideon’s 300. Also of the youthful Elihu having better words than the older established folk in Job…But yes, all you are saying is that we “came” from you and have “less”. . The “less” I disagree with .The “coming from” is mixed and but definitely so for we both come from many foundations laid long ago, even back to the Garden. May we be graced to give honor for such things as due.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Why do ya’ll have to exaggerate everything?

Oedipus Complex Trauma. It’s horrible

 

[7_Sorrows]

Just for clarification - the 30, 000 denominations - are those numbers in the United States or globally?

 

[cisco_1]

I have high respect for Episcopalians/Anglicans though. They do not view themselves as the One and only church of God… they actually give the respect to all denominations and call them all parts of the body of God.

Read this
conciliaranglican.com/2011/10/28/ask-an-anglican-choosing-the-one-true-church/

I find this point of view very admirable and i do hope other denominations, us Catholics included, will take example of this humble view point. Just because we re Catholics doesnt mean we can’t voice out errors with in our church. Only bias irrational religious fundies will think their Church is 100% free from error. I think the biggest error of Catholics today is that they create God to be so drill-sargent like; a God who will make you fear not to love him. While most protestant denominations teach that God is not a god to fear but to be loved. In short, just as one my biggest Catholic speakers have said, Catholics need to remember that relationship with God should always come first before the rules.

In all honesty, i don’t think people who detached themselves from the church was due to ignorance of scripture but because of the errors that catholic communities were doing. Most Catholics i know who left the Catholic Church for protestant churches was due to the fact that the protestant church just made them feel the love of god more, while in catholics it was always like “do these things the church tells you and god will love you after… if you don’t then you are an anathema… we can’t worship with you… you are not worthy unlike us who are holier than thou”

 

[JonNC]

But they talk about the “Church” all the time. What are they talking about?

I can’t speak for other communions or traditions, but others have shared speculations that I would agree with. From my own POV, if one does not recognize the sacraments, the means of grace instituted by Christ for the forgiveness of sins - Baptism, Absolution, Eucharist - then I suspect one might not see a reason for a visible Church. But again, it isn’t my place to speak for others.

Jon

 

[jritenour]

My take and it’s only my opinion…

Read the Nicene Creed. If you agree with it and get baptized, you are a Christian. Now, go pick out the faith tradition (call it a denomination if you like – and make sure you include Roman Catholicism and Orthodox in your research) that appeals to you most and go there. As long as you avoid the cults, you will do fine. God bless you.

 

[jritenour]

I have high respect for Episcopalians/Anglicans though. They do not view themselves as the One and only church of God… they actually give the respect to all denominations and call them all parts of the body of God.

Read this
conciliaranglican.com/2011/10/28/ask-an-anglican-choosing-the-one-true-church/

I find this point of view very admirable and i do hope other denominations, us Catholics included, will take example of this humble view point. Just because we re Catholics doesnt mean we can’t voice out errors with in our church. Only bias irrational religious fundies will think their Church is 100% free from error. I think the biggest error of Catholics today is that they create God to be so drill-sargent like; a God who will make you fear not to love him. While most protestant denominations teach that God is not a god to fear but to be loved. In short, just as one my biggest Catholic speakers have said, Catholics need to remember that relationship with God should always come first before the rules.

In all honesty, i don’t think people who detached themselves from the church was due to ignorance of scripture but because of the errors that catholic communities were doing. Most Catholics i know who left the Catholic Church for protestant churches was due to the fact that the protestant church just made them feel the love of god more, while in catholics it was always like “do these things the church tells you and god will love you after… if you don’t then you are an anathema… we can’t worship with you… you are not worthy unlike us who are holier than thou”

Thanks for the kind words. Obviously we have warts as well. Some bigger than others. It’s easy to tell you love others like most that post here. Loving your brothers is one of the true signs the Lord is with you.

 

[PRmerger]

My take and it’s only my opinion…

Read the Nicene Creed. If you agree with it and get baptized, you are a Christian. Now, go pick out the faith tradition (call it a denomination if you like – and make sure you include Roman Catholicism and Orthodox in your research) that appeals to you most and go there. As long as you avoid the cults, you will do fine. God bless you.

Don’t you think that’s the wrong approach–to find the church that “appeals to you” most and go there? Isn’t that creating a religion in one’s own image?

Rather, shouldn’t we research and discern which is the Church that Christ founded, and then join it and conform one’s views to that Church?

For example, even if we personally believe that divorce and re-marriage is absolutely fine, we know what Jesus said–it’s adultery.

So it’s the wrong way to find a church that says: divorce and re-marriage is fine!

Because that’s just finding a religion that teaches what I want it to say.

Rather, find the Church that doesn’t edit Christ’s divine revelation to make it more palatable. Find the Church that simply proclaims the Good News, whether it is comfortable or not.

 

[jritenour]

Don’t you think that’s the wrong approach–to find the church that “appeals to you” most and go there? Isn’t that creating a religion in one’s own image?

Rather, shouldn’t we research and discern which is the Church that Christ founded, and then join it and conform one’s views to that Church?

For example, even if we personally believe that divorce and re-marriage is absolutely fine, we know what Jesus said–it’s adultery.

So it’s the wrong way to find a church that says: divorce and re-marriage is fine!

Because that’s just finding a religion that teaches what I want it to say.

Rather, find the Church that doesn’t edit Christ’s divine revelation to make it more palatable. Find the Church that simply proclaims the Good News, whether it is comfortable or not.

No offense, PRmerger, but to me it sounds like you’re trying to push Roman Catholic teaching to the process of searching for a faith tradition. Not all of us agree with your points. Perhaps, these are the ways that you would approach it and I don’t think those are bad at all for you or anyone else who agrees with you. Please note that I put “My take and it’s only my opinion” at the very beginning.

Not:

“… what I want it to say …”

but rather I think this is best … (again, just my opinion)

“… what makes sense to me.”

Perhaps I misworded that.

Pax.

 

[PRmerger]

No offense, PRmerger,

None taken.

but to me it sounds like you’re trying to push Roman Catholic teaching to the process of searching for a faith tradition. Not all of us agree with your points. Perhaps, these are the ways that you would approach it and I don’t think those are bad at all for you or anyone else who agrees with you. Please note that I put “My take and it’s only my opinion” at the very beginning.

Not:

“… what I want it to say …”

but rather I think this is best … (again, just my opinion)

“… what makes sense to me.”

Perhaps I misworded that.

Pax.

Do you think Christianity is the correct faith tradition, over, say, Islam or atheism or Bahai?

 

[jritenour]

None taken.

Do you think Christianity is the correct faith tradition, over, say, Islam or atheism or Bahai?

Personally, yes. But, what do I know really? Seriously, it’s hard for me to say because let’s be honest, if I was born in Saudi Arabia or Iran, I may say ‘There is only one God but Allah.’

If someone in another religion is adhering to the same things that we Christians are taught, how can I not say they are Christ followers without them even knowing it? I believe Baptism is essential if you say you believe and it’s possible for you to do so but we can certainly know God. And so, we can be Christ followers and maybe not know it.

In case you’re driving at something though, for me, Christianity makes the most sense.

 

[PRmerger]

Personally, yes. But, what do I know really?

Well, I think you make a poor evangelist with that kind of attitude–no offense intended.

And aren’t we all commanded to make disciples?

Seriously, it’s hard for me to say because let’s be honest, if I was born in Saudi Arabia or Iran, I may say ‘There is only one God but Allah.’

So are you saying that where we are born determines what is true?

If we were born (white and) in 18th century Southern US, we would have said, “Slavery is moral!”

Does that make it true?

 

[jritenour]

Well, I think you make a poor evangelist with that kind of attitude–no offense intended. I disagree. I’d be more apt to listen to a person who exhibited they themselves don’t have an answer for everything. But all of us are different and have different gifts. I think even the current Bishop of Rome said "who am I to judge?"

And aren’t we all commanded to make disciples? Absolutely, though some will do it better than others. And some will go about it in different ways.

So are you saying that where we are born determines what is true? Putting words in my mouth.

If we were born (white and) in 18th century Southern US, we would have said, “Slavery is moral!”

Most of us did and would if it happened again in the same circumstances not knowing what we know now. Doesn’t make it right though. Man has always twisted words to suit himself. We’re kind of sinful that way which is why we need Christ.

Does that make it true?

 

[PRmerger]

Well, I think you make a poor evangelist with that kind of attitude–no offense intended. I disagree. I’d be more apt to listen to a person who exhibited they themselves don’t have an answer for everything. But all of us are different and have different gifts.

And aren’t we all commanded to make disciples? Absolutely, though some will do it better than others. And some will go about it in different ways.

So are you saying that where we are born determines what is true? Putting words in my mouth.

If we were born (white and) in 18th century Southern US, we would have said, “Slavery is moral!”

Most of us did and would if it happened again in the same circumstances not knowing what we know now. Doesn’t make it right though. Man has always twisted words to suit himself. We’re kind of sinful that way which is why we need Christ.

Firstly, would you mind not nesting your responses? I can’t respond to your posts easily when you do that.

Secondly, whom would you follow, when asking for directions: someone who says, “Well, I really don’t know where Main St. is. I believe it’s north of here, but, you know, whatever anyone else says could also be true!”

vs

“Oh! I know the way! Main St. is 2 streets north of here. Just turn right at the barber shop!”