Which Church??

[Jubilarian]

Do you believe that it’s the church you attend that saves you?

Matthew 7:7 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

There are many people in all the Christian churches who may not have the redemption that Christ earned for us because they don’t have the faith that God has shared with us. (Matt. 20:18 For many are called but few are chosen.)
Also: Matthew 7:22 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

It’s the faith we have received through the Holy Spirit and redemption of Christ’s death that saves us.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

I believe that God the Father sent His Son Jesus to redeem us from our sinful nature. The Holy Spirit led me to this Truth and because of His commandment I was baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

If I were to die today/tonight I know that I will enter the gates of Heaven because of my belief in Him and His Word.

My father passed away 5 years ago and I know that, because of his faith and belief in Christ and his baptism as a child, He entered God’s kingdom that beautiful, sunny morning. He did not belong to any church but expressed his belief not very long before he passed away.

The church we attend does not save us; that happens only through the mystery and love of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The “truth” that you spoke of lies only in this.

God bless you!

Protestantism offers that Gods word can be true in one church but not in another. You must accept that as a Protesfant. Truth is universal. Anywhere you go in the world , one plus one is true. That is universal truth. Was gods word in era for hundreds of tears before the Reformation? Think.

In addition, salvation does not lie in a formula . The bible shows us that.

 

[benhur]

I don’t know how the trend could be any more clear. The obvious conclusion is that Protestantism leads to a disbelief in God.

Your conclusion may be wrong in blaming a church for atheism. Jesus prefers us to be either hot or cold, and hates in between, hates religion in name only (which was the motivation that put Him on the cross). I would prefer church that empties out of goats as Jesus does also so that they might be saved. What is happening to mainliners is a blessing and a curse (product of sin,unbelief). it is easier to heal a defunct fallen away Lutheran than a practicing though defunct Lutheran.That goes for any denomination as Jesus pointed out about the one true religion of His time. For now the goats are in with the sheep.

Finally, spiritual vitality can be judged many ways. For sure one of them is genuine personal knowledge of the True Living God , not just divorce,abortion rates . Not just “cultural norms” even if attributable to past Church influence. For instance, Mormons I think have a very good record for “holy” living , but does that indicate being more in spirit and truth ?

 

[PRmerger]

How?

Look at history. Only one church (ok, maybe 2) can trace its origins all the way back to Christ and his apostles. My bishop was anointed by another bishop who was anointed by another bishop <snip 2000 years> who was anointed by the apostles, who were anointed by Christ.

Don’t go to a church that started in the 1800s in the US and believe that there was an 1800 year “underground” church that somehow managed to stay pure. That’s just gaga lala nonsense.

Why does that one make more sense to you?

Because it allows birth control, divorce and remarriage, female priests, private interpretation above any outside authority, sex before marriage (as long as you love him!), and all the other things which make sense with a God who loves me and just wants me to be happy. My beliefs make sense to* me.*

Not to mention that it really makes sense to join a church that’s 5 minutes away, since I spend most of my time there, right?

 

[PRmerger]

Because it allows birth control, divorce and remarriage, female priests, private interpretation above any outside authority, sex before marriage (as long as you love him!), and all the other things which make sense with a God who loves me and just wants me to be happy. My beliefs make sense to* me.*

Not to mention that it really makes sense to join a church that’s 5 minutes away, since I spend most of my time there, right?

Oh, and it lets anyone who wants communion to receive. Anyone and everyone!

Because that’s just mean and intolerant and exclusive to only let people who believe what this church professes to receive communion.

 

[benhur]

Protestantism offers that Gods word can be true in one church but not in another.

Just Protestantism ? Not Catholicism ? It took Vat 2 to finally admit God’s truth lives in “other churches” also, though not as fully.

Truth is universal.

Yes and it is also Absolute. Wisdom however takes other things into account, even relative to things at hand. So any church worth it’s weight discerns truth, line by line, and not just in totality (or by faction). To be catholic /universal, it must be agreed upon by all. That ceased long ago for "some’’ of our lines/doctrines. Fact is most churches today are still “catholic”, at least by 4th century norms ( the apostles creed). Beyond that factions are inevitable but wisdom would say be careful when you start saying "others’’ are not true church. Paul warned against factionalizing to show , “we are the true church”. With his admonition we should say to anyone who says that , “really ?”

 

[benhur]

Look at history. Only one church (ok, maybe 2) can trace its origins all the way back to Christ and his apostles. My bishop was anointed by another bishop who was anointed by another bishop <snip 2000 years> who was anointed by the apostles, who were anointed by Christ.

How do you personally know this is the best way to find the church ? How did you come to believe this ? Are there not other churches who can trace ? If so,* how *do you not pick them ? Did you not hear first then come to believe ? Who told you to discard the “other” voices ?

 

[PRmerger]

How do you personally know this is the best way to find the church ?

You find something wrong with this: find the Church Jesus established and then join it, and conform your views to Christ’s?

Really?

What do you think is the best way to find a church?

Are there not other churches who can trace ?

Show me any other churches that can trace their history back to Christ and the Apostles, and I’ll consider it.

(The Orthodox Church, BTW, is essentially the Catholic Church, IMHO.)

 

[dronald]

That’s not the card you wanted to play.

I actually don’t know what you had in mind.

 

[dronald]

Look at history. Only one church (ok, maybe 2) can trace its origins all the way back to Christ and his apostles. My bishop was anointed by another bishop who was anointed by another bishop <snip 2000 years> who was anointed by the apostles, who were anointed by Christ.

Don’t go to a church that started in the 1800s in the US and believe that there was an 1800 year “underground” church that somehow managed to stay pure. That’s just gaga lala nonsense.

Because it allows birth control, divorce and remarriage, female priests, private interpretation above any outside authority, sex before marriage (as long as you love him!), and all the other things which make sense with a God who loves me and just wants me to be happy. My beliefs make sense to* me.*

Not to mention that it really makes sense to join a church that’s 5 minutes away, since I spend most of my time there, right?

So by your own conscience you came to accept Catholicism. This was your doing based on your own research. Idk what kind of research JND Kelly, CS Lewis, WLC Craig did as well but I’m sure they all looked into it. Your fallable research against anyone elses.

 

[dronald]

Your conclusion may be wrong in blaming a church for atheism. Jesus prefers us to be either hot or cold, and hates in between, hates religion in name only (which was the motivation that put Him on the cross). I would prefer church that empties out of goats as Jesus does also so that they might be saved. What is happening to mainliners is a blessing and a curse (product of sin,unbelief). it is easier to heal a defunct fallen away Lutheran than a practicing though defunct Lutheran.That goes for any denomination as Jesus pointed out about the one true religion of His time. For now the goats are in with the sheep.

Finally, spiritual vitality can be judged many ways. For sure one of them is genuine personal knowledge of the True Living God , not just divorce,abortion rates . Not just “cultural norms” even if attributable to past Church influence. For instance, Mormons I think have a very good record for “holy” living , but does that indicate being more in spirit and truth ?

I brought this up in another thread but no one commented on it:

What in the world happened to the Catholic Church’s spine? When I read old documents it put down other beliefs as harmful, heretical and leading to death. Now it seems the CC is very fluffy with Islam, Protestantism or whatever else it may be. Of course the CC doesn’t recognize these Religions as ‘true’ but there was a time when the CC argued hard for truth. Now it’s about “All Religions are good!” So this is where I must agree about the hot/cold statement.

Secondly, about the statistics. I also made a thread once about feelings on abortion, homosexual marriage, etc. Turns out that practicing Protestants are statistically more unlikely to accept those things. So let’s not pretend Christianity is thriving where Catholicism lives. Many, many “Catholics” reject Catholic beliefs.

 

[PRmerger]

So by your own conscience you came to accept Catholicism. This was your doing based on your own research. Idk what kind of research JND Kelly, CS Lewis, WLC Craig did as well but I’m sure they all looked into it. Your fallable research against anyone elses.

Sure.



Not sure what your point is? That someone can do research and because they did their choice is correct?

Atheists also do research and conclude that God doesn’t exist.

Your point about them would be…?

 

[dronald]

Sure.



Not sure what your point is? That someone can do research and because they did their choice is correct?

Atheists also do research and conclude that God doesn’t exist.

Your point about them would be…?

My point is that you’re no different than anyone else in choosing a Church that “makes sense” to them.

 

[Jubilarian]

Just Protestantism ? Not Catholicism ? It took Vat 2 to finally admit God’s truth lives in “other churches” also, though not as fully. Yes and it is also Absolute. Wisdom however takes other things into account, even relative to things at hand. So any church worth it’s weight discerns truth, line by line, and not just in totality (or by faction). To be catholic /universal, it must be agreed upon by all. That ceased long ago for "some’’ of our lines/doctrines. Fact is most churches today are still “catholic”, at least by 4th century norms ( the apostles creed). Beyond that factions are inevitable but wisdom would say be careful when you start saying "others’’ are not true church. Paul warned against factionalizing to show , “we are the true church”. With his admonition we should say to anyone who says that , “really ?”

You are toying with words . You know what I mean when I write 'truth". If the Holy Spirit is telling Lutherans one thing and Methodists another, where is the ONE truth? Protestantism offers multiple truths from Gods word. The bible is the word of God. Jesus is THE truth. If one church does not shepherd his word, then you get the 'factions" that you speak of, which dissolve the concept of one truth.

Yes, not the full truth (Vatican 2). I haven’t said that that no truth exists in Protestant faiths as you seem to imply. The issue is consistency. Protestants as a whole can not agree upon essential issues . You are content with this?

 

[Thorolfr]

You are toying with words . You know what I mean when I write 'truth". If the Holy Spirit is telling Lutherans one thing and Methodists another, where is the ONE truth? Protestantism offers multiple truths from Gods word. The bible is the word of God. Jesus is THE truth. If one church does not shepherd his word, then you get the 'factions" that you speak of, which dissolve the concept of one truth.

Yes, not the full truth (Vatican 2). I haven’t said that that no truth exists in Protestant faiths as you seem to imply. The issue is consistency. Protestants as a whole can not agree upon essential issues . You are content with this?

Your way of looking at things only works if you presuppose that Catholicism (your group) has the truth and is on one side and is opposed to a multiplicity of Protestant denominations with different views on the other side. But a Lutheran, for example, could say the same thing. They could say that they have the truth and all other denominations of which Catholicism is one along with Methodists, Baptists, etc. have a multiplicity of other views. Every group thinks they have the full truth and all the others don’t or at best only have a partial truth.

 

[Jubilarian]

Your way of looking at things only works if you presuppose that Catholicism (your group) has the truth and is on one side and is opposed to a multiplicity of Protestant denominations with different views on the other side. But a Lutheran, for example, could say the same thing. They could say that they have the truth and all other denominations of which Catholicism is one along with Methodists, Baptists, etc. have a multiplicity of other views. Every group thinks threy have the full truth and all the others don’t or at best only have a partial truth.

We want to know is if Catholicism is the “one truth”. Before the Reformation, tell me with your next response if you believe that Gods word was in error for thousands of years.

You use the word “views” in relation to other denominations. These views are truths from scripture, correct?

 

[PJM]

=Jubilarian;12597822]We want to know is if Catholicism is the “one truth”. Before the Reformation, tell me with your next response if you believe that Gods word was in error for thousands of years.

You use the word “views” in relation to other denominations. These views are truths from scripture, correct?

The SHORT way [biblically] tp prove
One God
who can and does have just One set of Faith beliefs
& Founded just One Church {“MY Church”} Mt. 16:18

Mat 16: with the Keys and the founding of “My Church”

Mt.10:1-8 where Christ names the Apostles by name and gives the SOME of His Godly Powers

John 17:111-26 a POWERFUL testimony to Just “One”

Mt 28:16-20 where Christ Himself commands Succession [Mt. 10: commanded teach the Jews Only; Mt 28 has Christ changing His min and now commands them to “TEACH THE ENTIRE WORLD” a mandate to the Apostles and their successors only and directly.

Then there is the historical evidence of ONLY the Catholic Church’s existence for about the first THOUSAND YEARS.

The Reformation did not take place until the 15th Century, and God would have HAD TO wait that long to share His truths [singular]; which is an impossibility.

With thousands to choose from; which competing faith is then God’s ONE True Faith?

Eph. 4:1-7 “I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. One body [means One Church] and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism.One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all. But to every one of us is given grace, according to the measure of the giving of Christ” {Requires acceptance of God’s Grace to understand and comprehend]

Prayer for them is the answer:thumbsup:

 

[johnyonthepot]

Today, 7:27 am
Jubilarian Jubilarian is offline
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Join Date: November 21, 2014
Posts: 93
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Which Church??
Quote:
Originally Posted by benhur View Post

Just Protestantism ? Not Catholicism ? It took Vat 2 to finally admit God’s truth lives in “other churches” also, though not as fully.

Yes and it is also Absolute. Wisdom however takes other things into account, even relative to things at hand. So any church worth it’s weight discerns truth, line by line, and not just in totality (or by faction).

To be catholic /universal, it must be agreed upon by all. That ceased long ago for "some’’ of our lines/doctrines. Fact is most churches today are still “catholic”, at least by 4th century norms ( the apostles creed).

Beyond that factions are inevitable but wisdom would say be careful when you start saying "others’’ are not true church.

Paul warned against factionalizing to show , “we are the true church”.

With his admonition we should say to anyone who says that , “really ?”

You are toying with words . You know what I mean when I write 'truth". If the Holy Spirit is telling Lutherans one thing and Methodists another, where is the ONE truth? Protestantism offers multiple truths from Gods word.

The bible is the word of God. Jesus is THE truth.

If one church does not shepherd his word, then you get the 'factions" that you speak of, which dissolve the concept of one truth.

Yes, not the full truth (Vatican 2).

I haven’t said that that no truth exists in Protestant faiths as you seem to imply. The issue is consistency.

Pope Leo X

“The Church needs a reformation. And this cannot be the work either of a single man, as the pope - but it must be that of the whole world” (Martin Luther)

Pope Leo X was born Giovanni de Medici in 1475 and raised in Italy’s most culturally sophisticated city, Florence, as part of the prestigious de’ Medici family, renowned patrons of the arts, benefactors of scholarship, and masters of political intrigue.

He became one of the most extravagant of all Popes, more a patron of the arts as his parents were than a significant ecclesiastical figure. He was a skilful administrator, and became Pope at the age of 37 in 1513.

Immediately Leo demonstrated his appreciation of art by initiating a massive building project to beautify the Vatican. The pomp and extravagance of his court was an indirect cause of the Reformation because to acquire the enormous sums of money for renovation, he encouraged the sale of “Indulgences,” which was a promise of relief from eternal penalties.

In Germany this practice aroused the ire of Martin Luther, a humble monk, who issued ninety- five arguments for church reform.

Luther wrote in his 95 Theses, his criticism of the Church - “why doesn’t the Pope build the basilica of St Peter’s out of his own money?”.

German nobles saw an opportunity to cut off currency flowing to Rome that was very much needed at home, so they backed Luther’s cause. In 1520, Leo issued the papal bull Exsurge Domine demanding Luther retract 41 of his 95 theses, and after Luther’s refusal, excommunicated him.

Some historians believe that Leo never really took Luther’s movement or his followers seriously, even until the time of his death in 1521. They also contend that if he had been more interested in religion than artwork, the Reformation may never have happened.

Pope Leo X was also the Patron of the artist Raphael and granted King Henry VIII of England the title ‘Defender of the Faith’. He was the last pope to look at the papacy as a temporal monarchy.

Protestants as a whole can not agree upon essential issues .

You are content with this?

you could just look at what Saint Paul said-- in Romans 8-- if you don’t have the "down load " of the Holy Spirit – than you are not part of the “body of Christ”

and Saint Paul "always taught that the People were the church and the “Body of Christ”

and as in Mark 16 – says – and these signs shall follow them__

in my name they will-- etc–etc-- heal deliver- prophecy

 

[Jubilarian]

The SHORT way [biblically] tp prove
One God
who can and does have just One set of Faith beliefs
& Founded just One Church {“MY Church”} Mt. 16:18

Mat 16: with the Keys and the founding of “My Church”

Mt.10:1-8 where Christ names the Apostles by name and gives the SOME of His Godly Powers

John 17:111-26 a POWERFUL testimony to Just “One”

Mt 28:16-20 where Christ Himself commands Succession [Mt. 10: commanded teach the Jews Only; Mt 28 has Christ changing His min and now commands them to “TEACH THE ENTIRE WORLD” a mandate to the Apostles and their successors only and directly.

Then there is the historical evidence of ONLY the Catholic Church’s existence for about the first THOUSAND YEARS.

The Reformation did not take place until the 15th Century, and God would have HAD TO wait that long to share His truths [singular]; which is an impossibility.

With thousands to choose from; which competing faith is then God’s ONE True Faith?

Eph. 4:1-7 “I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. One body [means One Church] and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism.One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all. But to every one of us is given grace, according to the measure of the giving of Christ” {Requires acceptance of God’s Grace to understand and comprehend]

Prayer for them is the answer:thumbsup:

I concur. You have added nicely to my point.

 

[Topper17]

Hi Jon,

Except that:
if, for example, my synod’s leadership decided to change something - move toward female ordination, as an example, then I will “divorce my view” from leadership. In the same way, from the position (right or wrong) of the Lutheran reformers (not only Luther), they believed that the CC had indeed moved away from the historic teachings of the Church.
As an example, you state that, “authority lies in the Body of Christ–the Church”. In the early Church, that authority resided in the councils, not in the hands of only one of the patriarchates.

Jon

You claim that doctrine is a matter for the church and not the individual, and YET, here you deny and refute that belief by claiming that it is YOU who will decide when your communion or synod is in the wrong and need to be corrected and opposed.

That Jon is you using your Private Interpretation to defy your synod and their teachings, the very act of which is defiant of the teachings of your communion and synod. BTW that is also exactly what you did when you left the ELCA for the LCMS. That is exactly what Luther did.

It seems that it was ‘ok’ when Luther defied the RCC and left it, and ‘ok’ when you defied the ELCA and left it, but somehow, it would not be acceptable for someone to defy the LCMS? Why the difference?

BTW, I know that your father was an ELCA Pastor. May I ask if he is still alive?

God Bless You Jon, Topper

 

[JonNC]

Hi Jon,

You claim that doctrine is a matter for the church and not the individual, and YET, here you deny and refute that belief by claiming that it is YOU who will decide when your communion or synod is in the wrong and need to be corrected and opposed.

That Jon is you using your Private Interpretation to defy your synod and their teachings, the very act of which is defiant of the teachings of your communion and synod. BTW that is also exactly what you did when you left the ELCA for the LCMS. That is exactly what Luther did.

It seems that it was ‘ok’ when Luther defied the RCC and left it, and ‘ok’ when you defied the ELCA and left it, but somehow, it would not be acceptable for someone to defy the LCMS? Why the difference?

BTW, I know that your father was an ELCA Pastor. May I ask if he is still alive?

God Bless You Jon, Topper

Hi Topper
And you defied your old communion and left it. That was PI too.

I said that if the LCMS were to defy the confessions, then they should be challenged.

He transferred to the Church Triumphant about 25 years ago. I miss him still

Jon