Which Church??

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I think you have a slight misunderstanding of what sacred scripture is.
How can I know that you are right and he is wrong i.e. did Jesus leave us His church to resolve slight misunderstanding and even big doctrinal differences that fracture Jesus’ Mystical Body, the Church when they occur, or - does Jesus expect every Christian to defer to scripture to resolve doctrinal differences?
 
Yes. Whenever we talk of inspiration, as it applies to this discussion, we mean theopneustos.

So, again, the ONLY way you know that 1 Clement is not theopneustos is because…

you submit to the authority of the CC which discerned that it was NOT inspired.
:yup: And the Catholic Church used sacred, apostolic tradition as the benchmark to make the determination e.g. when confronted with gnosticism.
 
Peter wrote two letters. He has not mentioned that he was a key bearer, or say who would be his successor. On the contrary, he encourages the believers to endure suffering to to live holy lives as they had become born again in Christ.
You’re from China? Is there any need for the Church to operate in a cautious way there?

Why would Peter put his successor’s name in writing when the courier could be searched and the letter confiscated by the Romans?

Was there any need for Peter to say anything about the keys since all of the early Church would have been taught orally and not from a Bible? And would it have been an example of humility if he had? Take a look…

1 Peter 5:1 – Peter a “fellow elder”

Many non-Catholics try to minimize the authority of the Catholic Papacy by pointing to 1 Peter 5:1 where Peter calls himself a “fellow elder” and claiming that Peter was nothing special because he considers himself equal to all the other elders?

However, could it be possible that the fifth chapter of 1 Peter is all about humility, and that Peter is modeling the very behavior he is exhorting others to exhibit?

1 Peter 5:1-7
1To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ’s sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; 3not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. 4And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away. 5Young men, in the same way be submissive to those who are older. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” 6Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. 7Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.

Peter’s desire was that some of the recipients of this letter might have been moved by seeing that he of all people had humbled himself by calling himself a mere “fellow elder”? Would this have inspired them to practice humility, also?

Mark 9:33-35
33They came to Capernaum. When he was in the house, he asked them, “What were you arguing about on the road?” 34But they kept quiet because on the way they had argued about who was the greatest. 35Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, “If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all.”

Peter was first among the Apostles, and he viewed himself as the servant of all - a “fellow elder” - just as Jesus had taught him to do. Peter’s unwillingness to trumpet his own importance is evidence that he truly was “first” among the Twelve.
 
Jesus first language was Aramaic though He could have spoken other languages. But, the NT was written in Greek. The translations are: "Peter” (petros) and “rock” (petra). These nouns refer to different objects; Peter a small stone, and petra a massive rock upon which a big building should stand. Compare: Matt 7:24: Therefore whosoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him unto a wise man, who built his house upon a rock:

If that be the case, then the rock that Jesus was referring to metaphorically was something bigger which could hold the whole world. From the subject of that moment, it was the revelation of who Christ was. The church is made up of believers in Christ as the Son of God. Peter as an individual does not account in any way for one to become a member of the Church of Christ.
Peter in his writing affirms the same: 1Pet1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Paul says in Philp3:8: Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord:
Chong, this is incorrect, and I have already quoted 25 Bible Scholars who disagree with you. You have not responded to that material, yet.

Petros and Petra–Much Ado About Nothing

Opponents of the Catholic interpretation of Matthew 16:18 sometimes argue that in the Greek text the name of the apostle is Petros, while “rock” is rendered as petra. They claim that the former refers to a small stone, while the latter refers to a massive rock; so, if Peter was meant to be the massive rock, why isn’t his name Petra?

Note that Christ did not speak to the disciples in Greek. He spoke Aramaic, the common language of Palestine at that time. In that language the word for rock is kepha, which is what Jesus called him in everyday speech (note that in John 1:42 he was told, “You will be called Cephas”). What Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 was: “You are Kepha, and upon this kepha I will build my Church.”

When Matthew’s Gospel was translated from the original Aramaic to Greek, there arose a problem which did not confront the evangelist when he first composed his account of Christ’s life. In Aramaic the word kepha has the same ending whether it refers to a rock or is used as a man’s name. In Greek, though, the word for rock, petra, is feminine in gender. The translator could use it for the second appearance of kepha in the sentence, but not for the first because it would be inappropriate to give a man a feminine name. So he put a masculine ending on it, and hence Peter became Petros.

Furthermore, the premise of the argument against Peter being the rock is simply false.** In first century Greek the words petros and petra were synonyms. They had previously possessed the meanings of “small stone” and “large rock” in some early Greek poetry, but by the first century this distinction was gone, as Protestant Bible scholars admit (see D. A. Carson’s remarks on this passage in the Expositor’s Bible Commentary, [Grand Rapids: Zondervan Books]). **

Some of the effect of Christ’s play on words was lost when his statement was translated from the Aramaic into Greek, but that was the best that could be done in Greek. In English, like Aramaic, there is no problem with endings; so an English rendition could read: “You are Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church.”

Consider another point: If the rock really did refer to Christ (as some claim, based on 1 Cor. 10:4, “and the Rock was Christ” though the rock there was a literal, physical rock), why did Matthew leave the passage as it was? In the original Aramaic, and in the English which is a closer parallel to it than is the Greek, the passage is clear enough. Matthew must have realized that his readers would conclude the obvious from “Rock . . . rock.”

If he meant Christ to be understood as the rock, why didn’t he say so? Why did he take a chance and leave it up to Paul to write a clarifying text? This presumes, of course, that 1 Corinthians was written after Matthew’s Gospel; if it came first, it could not have been written to clarify it.

The reason, of course, is that Matthew knew full well that what the sentence seemed to say was just what it really was saying. It was Simon, weak as he was, who was chosen to become the rock and thus the first link in the chain of the papacy.
 
Jesus first language was Aramaic though He could have spoken other languages. But, the NT was written in Greek. The translations are: "Peter” (petros) and “rock” (petra). These nouns refer to different objects; Peter a small stone, and petra a massive rock upon which a big building should stand. Compare: Matt 7:24: Therefore whosoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him unto a wise man, who built his house upon a rock:

If that be the case, then the rock that Jesus was referring to metaphorically was something bigger which could hold the whole world. From the subject of that moment, it was the revelation of who Christ was. The church is made up of believers in Christ as the Son of God. Peter as an individual does not account in any way for one to become a member of the Church of Christ.
Peter in his writing affirms the same: 1Pet1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Paul says in Philp3:8: Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord:
Petros in Homer’s Greek

According to Protestant apologists, the Greek word *petra *means “large rock” whereas the word *petros *means only a small stone or pebble. If true, this distinction would be significant since Matthew 16:18-19 refers to Peter as petros; consequently, the claim is made that Peter was only a small, insignificant stone or pebble and not the rock upon which Jesus promised to build His Church.

However, in The Illiad, the ancient Greek author, Homer, used petros to describe a very large stone. From The Illiad, Chapter 20, Lines 285-290:

285σμερδαλέα ἰάχων: ὃ δὲ χερμάδιον λάβε χειρὶ
286Αἰνείας, μέγα ἔργον, ὃ οὐ δύο γ᾽ ἄνδρε φέροιεν,
287οἷοι νῦν βροτοί εἰσ᾽: ὃ δέ μιν ῥέα πάλλε καὶ οἶος.
288ἔνθά κεν Αἰνείας μὲν ἐπεσσύμενον βάλε πέτρῳ
289ἢ κόρυθ᾽ ἠὲ σάκος, τό οἱ ἤρκεσε λυγρὸν ὄλεθρον,
290τὸν δέ κε Πηλεΐδης σχεδὸν ἄορι θυμὸν ἀπηύρα,

The last word in line 288 is petros. Was this a small stone, easily hefted? Homer has a far different image in mind. Here is the full passage translated into English:

But Achilles drew his sharp sword and leapt upon him furiously, [285] crying a terrible cry; and Aeneas grasped in his hand a stone—a mighty deed—one that not two mortals could bear, such as men are now; yet lightly did he wield it even alone. Then would Aeneas have smitten him with the stone, as he rushed upon him, either on helm or on the shield that had warded from him woeful destruction, [290] and the son of Peleus in close combat would with his sword have

classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.20.xx.html

Homer uses two words for the “rock” or “stone” that was described as being so large that it would require two normal men to lift. The second word in the passage above is petros. So, Homer sees petros as a movable stone but one that is by no means small.

Based upon a posting by Huiou Theou: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=45207&highlight=Homer
 
There are not 30,000 denominations today. This is propaganda like P’s who say C’s killed millions during inquisition and other moves.
Fair enough. How many ARE there then? The Catholic number is an estimate. What would the protestant number be? Who would be the single protestant authority who could provide this number?

Any help appreciated. I don’t think any of us WANT to spread falsehoods.
 
Fair enough. How many ARE there then? The Catholic number is an estimate. What would the protestant number be? Who would be the single protestant authority who could provide this number?

Any help appreciated. I don’t think any of us WANT to spread falsehoods.
'zactly.

I have been asking this question for years, posited to those who object to my assertion that there are tens of thousands of Christian denominations today.

I ask for the actual number, and any source that they used in obtaining this number, and ask that the number includes every single church like this, on the corners of every single city in every single country of the world:



No number or source has ever been given that countermands my assertion of tens of thousands of Christian denominations.
 
'zactly.

I have been asking this question for years, posited to those who object to my assertion that there are tens of thousands of Christian denominations today.

I ask for the actual number, and any source that they used in obtaining this number, and ask that the number includes every single church like this, on the corners of every single city in every single country of the world:

http://craphound.com/images/brooklynstorefrontchurch.jpg

No number or source has ever been given that countermands my assertion of tens of thousands of Christian denominations.
Plus all of the underground Church’s in China and the middle east. Who knows how many denominations that adds up to what with their secrecy.
 
Petros in Homer’s Greek

According to Protestant apologists, the Greek word *petra *means “large rock” whereas the word *petros *means only a small stone or pebble. If true, this distinction would be significant since Matthew 16:18-19 refers to Peter as petros; consequently, the claim is made that Peter was only a small, insignificant stone or pebble and not the rock upon which Jesus promised to build His Church.

However, in The Illiad, the ancient Greek author, Homer, used petros to describe a very large stone. From The Illiad, Chapter 20, Lines 285-290:

285σμερδαλέα ἰάχων: ὃ δὲ χερμάδιον λάβε χειρὶ
286Αἰνείας, μέγα ἔργον, ὃ οὐ δύο γ᾽ ἄνδρε φέροιεν,
287οἷοι νῦν βροτοί εἰσ᾽: ὃ δέ μιν ῥέα πάλλε καὶ οἶος.
288ἔνθά κεν Αἰνείας μὲν ἐπεσσύμενον βάλε πέτρῳ
289ἢ κόρυθ᾽ ἠὲ σάκος, τό οἱ ἤρκεσε λυγρὸν ὄλεθρον,
290τὸν δέ κε Πηλεΐδης σχεδὸν ἄορι θυμὸν ἀπηύρα,

The last word in line 288 is petros. Was this a small stone, easily hefted? Homer has a far different image in mind. Here is the full passage translated into English:

But Achilles drew his sharp sword and leapt upon him furiously, [285] crying a terrible cry; and Aeneas grasped in his hand a stone—a mighty deed—one that not two mortals could bear, such as men are now; yet lightly did he wield it even alone. Then would Aeneas have smitten him with the stone, as he rushed upon him, either on helm or on the shield that had warded from him woeful destruction, [290] and the son of Peleus in close combat would with his sword have

classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.20.xx.html

Homer uses two words for the “rock” or “stone” that was described as being so large that it would require two normal men to lift. The second word in the passage above is petros. So, Homer sees petros as a movable stone but one that is by no means small.

Based upon a posting by Huiou Theou: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=45207&highlight=Homer
I’m more interested in why Jesus said “This rock” and not “thou rock”. Any explanation?
 
I’m more interested in why Jesus said “This rock” and not “thou rock”. Any explanation?
Jesus didn’t speak English. He spoke Aramaic.

One simple scenario has to do with how Jesus moved as He was saying these words. Imagine you are writing a play complete with stage directions for the actors:

Jesus: "Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my Father in heaven. And I say that you are Rock…

[turns to the Eleven and points at Simon]

and upon this Rock I will build my Church."

Works for me.
 
Don’t think they do.
Don’t think this is accurate either. There are not 30,000 denominations today. This is propaganda like P’s who say C’s killed millions during inquisition and other moves.
Let’s assume that there are only 500 Protestant Churches in the world today, established by people like me for example (hypothetically speaking) , *who would have no right to start a church and call it the church founded by Jesus circa AD 33. Is that too many considering the fact that Jesus said: I will build my church (not churches - plural).
*
 
These days it almost feels like a crime to admit that we, as Christian Catholics, belong to the one church founded by God, circa AD 33 in Jerusalem, on Pentecost - as if it’s an arrogant claim i.e. “how dare you say such a thing” - something I hear often, if I utter those words, even when I refer them to the CCC 817 - 821 🤷
 
Oh, so that explains it. Thanks.
Pretty much. The Greek and Aramaic issues have already been explained to you. You just don’t like the obvious implications.

One other explanation, by the way, is that Matthew recorded the words Jesus spoke, but not the body language or how Jesus moved as He was saying these words. Imagine you are writing a play complete with stage directions for the actors:

Jesus: "Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my Father in heaven. And I say that you are Rock…

[turns to the Eleven and points at Simon]

and upon this Rock I will build my Church."

Works for me.
 
Hi Jon,

Thanks for your response.
The CA answers this in the conclusion.
**“The Protestant princes showed greater firmness than their theologians. ** Phillip of Hesse rode off without taking leave of the emperor, the others waited a month in order not to give offense……**the princes did not yield ground on any fundamental questions. ****They declared their faith identical with the Gospel and not disproved by the “Confutation” (the Catholic response to the Augsburg Confession).” **Holborn, pg. 213

The princes of the time were not what you would call ‘admirable’ and yet, here we learn that they were more firm on theology than were the Lutheran Theologians.

Catholic convert and Harvard Professor of Roman Catholic Studies Christopher Dawson comments about Augsburg:

“Melanchthon, who was at once the most humanist and most conciliatory of the reformers, was well fitted to take the lead in this work, and the result of his labors was the famous **Confession of Augsburg, the most un-Lutheran of Lutheran formularies, which slurs over some of the most distinctive doctrines of the new faith.

It was an attempt to exaggerate the points of disagreement between Lutherans and Zwinglians, in order to minimize the disagreements between Lutherans and Catholics.**
He [Melanchthon] went even further in his letter to the papal legate, Campeggio, in which he declared that ‘we reverence the authority of the Pope of Rome and the whole heirarchy’, **He goes so far as to write, ‘For no other reason are we hated as we are in Germany than because we defend and uphold the dogmas of the Roman Church with so much persistence.” **It is true that Luther had written in a similar vein in his letter to [Pope] Leo X, but that was in 1518: since then the great break had occurred and the Roman Church had been denounced by all the leaders of the Reformation as the Seat of Anti-Christ and the Synagogue of Satan.” Dawson, “The Dividing of Christendom”, pg. 104.

Again, this was a BALDFACED LIE. As a matter of fact, it has NEVER been a dogma of the Catholic Church that it was the seat of the Anti-Christ.

BTW Jon, since you are reading Bouyer’s wonderfully insightful book, you might want to look at page 251, where he refers to ‘the Lutheran reaction – the handing over to the civil authority of the organization and direction of the church’. I think it allows for a better understanding of why the Augsburg Confession as presented was a dishonest representation of Lutheran belief. That ‘handing over’ was pretty much completed at Augsburg, and as for the ‘practical results’, it hasn’t worked out all that well in the Scandinavian countries has it?

“It was not so much Luther as his colleague Philipp Melanchthon, Professor of Greek at Wittenberg, and praeceptor Germaniae, who introduced the principal of dogmatic order and uniformity at the** Augsburg Confession (1530). The beginning of a lengthy and messy process that refined and defined Lutheranism, culminating in another of history’s jokes, the “Book of Concord (1580). Not for nothing did Shakespeare refer to “spleeny Lutherans.”** Professor of History at Cambridge (and presumably a Protestant), Patrick Collinson, Anglican Professor of History at Cambridge, “The Reformation, A History”, pg. 67

That’s a pretty harsh assessment of the Formula of Concord, and I would doubt that this Anglican was upset specifically with the extremely anti-Catholic nature of the Formula.

“After Luther’s death** Melanchthon translated the Augsburg Confession into Greek for the patriarch at Constantinople and in doing so actually transmuted Luther’s teaching of justification by faith into the Greek concept of the deification of man through sacramental union with the incorruptible Christ.” **Bainton, pg. 115-7

Here Bainton comments that Melanchthon actually misrepresented Luther’s teaching on Justification by faith in his Greek translation. This from an author who could HARDLY be accused of being anything but PRO-Luther. Bainton comments further about Melanchthon at Augsburg:

“He sat in his room and wept. ** At the same time he explored every avenue of conciliation and even went so far as to say that the differences between the Lutherans and the Catholics were no more serious than the use of German in the mass.”, **Bainton, pg. 333

Clearly Melanchthon’s heretofore unmentioned claim is ANOTHER lie. That is – UNLESS you completely redefine what is meant by the term “Catholic Church”.

“Now Melanchthon was for recognizing even the pope, whereas Luther felt that there could be no peace with the pope unless he abolished the papacy.” Bainton, pg. 333

Luther wanted the papacy abolished simply because HE disagreed with Catholic teaching? Could this possibly have been more arrogant?

As for the Augsburg Confession being a “Lutheran Confesssion” and an accurate depiction of Lutheran belief:

“Calvin is notorious, however, not for his negative but for his positive judgments of Luther. Kark Holl called Calvin Luther’s best disciple, and there are historical reasons for that judgment. **Calvin signed the Augsburg Confession **and in the controversy with Zwingli………………David Steinmetz, “Luther in Context”, pg. 86.

This book was recommended to me by Edwin (Contarini). Steinmetz if I remember correctly was his Doctorial Advisor. (In fact I did read it Edwin.)

I have never heard before that Calvin signed the Augsburg Confession, but if it is true, it doesn’t speak very well for the AC (or CA) being a complete statement of Lutheran belief or in fact, even very Lutheran.

God Bless You Jon, Topper
 
I think you have a slight misunderstanding of what sacred scripture is. Clement could definitely have been inspired when he wrote. But the Bible claims its very words are God-breathed. That’s what makes them the Logos of God. Clement may have been inspired, but that doesn’t make his words the Logos.[/QUOTthe Bible claims its very words are God-breathed.E]

Can you provide chapter and verse where the Bible claims this for itself…the Bible claims its very words are God-breathed.

them the Logos of God…The Bible says the Logos is Christ…the Word made flesh…not the Bible or written word.
 
No, you redefine (limit) for church politics ? You tell me ? Catholic is a word outside the boundaries of the Catholic(Roman) Church. I am allowing for both usages, which is historical, and ask why can’t you.

Okay…when Ignatuis of Antioch wrote the word Catholic Church…what do you think he meant?

Did he mean to include protestants such as you today who reject parts of the CC?

Do you accept the authority of Ignatius as a bishop?
Only if you mean in the same fashion that Peter “picked and chose” what was proper to say to Jesus when He asked , “who do men say that I am?”… We all pick and choose. Our churches chose not be Arian or gnostic . Both our churches chose not to include all the books of the Septuagint though you kept a few more.
 
'zactly.

I have been asking this question for years, posited to those who object to my assertion that there are tens of thousands of Christian denominations today.

I ask for the actual number, and any source that they used in obtaining this number, and ask that the number includes every single church like this, on the corners of every single city in every single country of the world:

http://craphound.com/images/brooklynstorefrontchurch.jpg

No number or source has ever been given that countermands my assertion of tens of thousands of Christian denominations.
Hi PR,

That church in the picture you posted HAS to be the ‘Real Deal’. The guy who runs it is a Bishop.

God Bless You PR, Topper
 
Hi PR,

That church in the picture you posted HAS to be the ‘Real Deal’. The guy who runs it is a Bishop.

God Bless You PR, Topper
Oh yes! I see it now. Thanks for pointing it out Topper!😃

Peace!!!
 
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