Which Church??

[Jubilarian]

God can rest. Also, as his creatures, we are his instruments . He knows who to put where. Peter was chosen. In that sense God knew who to rest upon to complete his skcerign purpose.

 

[eazyduzit]

The cornerstone and the rock the foundation is laid upon are two different things.

If Christ is the Chief Cornerstone, what is He rested upon? What rock is he placed upon?

You believe that even though the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus, it still, nevertheless, is imperfect, doctrinally speaking - right?

We agree, as per the CCC, that we are all connected:

"However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the ** Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers** . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."27

The phrase "justified by faith in baptism seems pivitol here, but I don’t even know if I could agree unless you define what it actually means. Is it found in the bible?

 

[joe371]

The phrase "justified by faith in baptism seems pivitol here, but I don’t even know if I could agree unless you define what it actually means. Is it found in the bible?

The following words apply to those who are first baptised, for obvious reasons:

“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ…”

“For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.”

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God…

 

[eazyduzit]

Jesus is the divine Cornerstone (the cornerstone keeps a structure together) and the divine Rock/foundation of His church, as per the Catholic Church. Simon, renamed Kepha, is the visible rock on which Jesus’ church is built, and the apostles form the visible foundation as well: “…built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.” Of course Jesus rests on nothing but I can understand why you asked. Actually Jesus is the church, as per Paul.

OK, thanks for the clarification, but now you’re doing it to me again. I know where Paul said that we are the body of Christ. But where is it said that Jesus is the body? This is not a reversabe statement.

 

[eazyduzit]

The following words apply to those who are first baptised, for obvious reasons:

“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ…”

“For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.”

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God…

Wow, great, I agree!:thumbsup:but would your church agree with “justified by faith apart from works”?

 

[Jubilarian]

There can only be ONE church. Thousands of churches with “different truths” as in Protestantism is anti biblical.

 

[joe371]

Wow, great, I agree!:thumbsup:but would your church agree with “justified by faith apart from works”?

The Catholic Church would most definitely agree with the fact that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. Read James regarding Christian works, as opposed to works of the law, and you will have your answer.

 

[joe371]

OK, thanks for the clarification, but now you’re doing it to me again. I know where Paul said that we are the body of Christ. But where is it said that Jesus is the body? This is not a reversabe statement.

The church is Jesus’ body of which he is the head and savior. We are the body of Christ of which Jesus is the head and savior. We belong to the church and the church is Jesus’ mystical Body, something we both agree with - right?

catholicbook.com/AgredaCD/MyCatholicFaith/mcfc074.htm

 

[zz912]

Then apparently Augustine was not Catholic ? Or Tertullian ?

Citation for where they disagreed over Peter being the rock.

 

[PRmerger]

Wow, great, I agree!:thumbsup:but would your church agree with “justified by faith apart from works”?

Works* of the law*. Don’t forget to add those last 3 words.

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.–Romans 3:8

If that’s what you mean, then, yes. We do not need to perform any of the Mosaic rituals in order to be justified.

 

[zz912]

“You are petros and upon this **petra **I will build my church” is the inspired word of God.

How do you know it wasn’t this in aramaic, " You are kepha and upon this minra I will build my church" ?** It is wrong to assume there is absolutely no other word in aramaic for petra. **All are in agreement that kepha stands for petros for we are told so in other scriptures(Cephas).

if we are going to start assuming familiar language during the discourse, then why not imagine a familiar gesture that just as easily could have taken place, as Christ pointing to himself ? Maybe it was a reminder to Peter not to forget who really is in charge, for just moments later Peter has a big downfall and is rebuked by the Lord. Maybe, just as much as kepha =petro (I think less probable).

See what happens when we assume?** The inspired text uses two different words,**which has left us with much dispute still.

If you want all to believe “keys” has an easily recognizable OT meaning, then I would want all to believe that “rock” has an easily recognizable OT meaning also (Jesus,God, for he is both Petras and Petros in other scriptures)

So the original Aramaic was two completely different words, and the Holy Spirit inspired the gospel writer to translate those words as the same word but in masculine and feminine form? Is this really what you are arguing is possible?

And the question is still left unanswered, why does Jesus change his name? What happened to others who had their name changed by God? Did the name change relate in any way to the mission God had for them?

 

[zz912]

Well, some would say there were no proto-15 th century belief/practice encompassing Catholics amongst the earliest of fathers. I would say 15,16th century CC produced 15,16 century Lutherans and vice versa. Without Luther you may never had had or needed an Ignatius of Loyola. The CC and L’s had a few arguments not totally expounded upon by the earliest fathers.

On the contrary, I see plenty of confirmation in their writings that what we proclaim and celebrate is the same thing they did. They speak of the Eucharist, the sacraments, Apostolic succession, the unity of the Church, the mass, and many more things that most Protestants do not proclaim.

 

[zz912]

Sounds logical when you use the same word twice . Unfortunately, the inspired text does not.

It uses the same root word, with the masculine and feminine forms of the word.

 

[zz912]

If I don’t have the name of the church founded by Jesus how in the world am I suppose to go there and worship. I’ll try one more time, if you don’t mind: Jesus founded one church and said he would guide His church into all truth until the end of time which means His establish ekklesia is still here; where can I find that church today in view of the fact that there are many churches such as the Baptist, Presbyterian Anglican church etc. etc.? The alternative: Jesus’ one church eventually became an amalgam of all the isolated and divided churches we see in the world today. Is this getting close to what you contend?

In line with this, Jesus instructs us to bring our offering to the altar when we worship. I need to know which is the correct Church, so that I bring my offering to the proper altar.

 

[zz912]

Wait,wait,wait, Did I read that right? Are you saying that God needs someone to support Him? Who is bigger than God?

In His human form, Jesus absolutely needed someone to support Him. His mother supported Him while He was growing. Simon the Cyrene supported Him when helping Him carry His cross. Angels supported Him after He had fasted for 40 days in the desert. And His mother, other women, and Joseph of Arimethea supported Him when they took His Body down from the cross, cleaned and tended Him, and placed Him in the tomb.

And we support Him when the Holy Spirit transforms the bread and wine into His Body and Blood. He lays His Body completely in our hands, to minister to Him, and treat Him reverently (although some do not). He comes to us in a completely helpless form entrusting to us His Body and Blood.

And ascribing to Jesus the metaphor of being the Chief Cornerstone does not deny His omnipotence. The metaphor does NOT preclude Peter from being the rock upon which the Church is built. That was my point. A cornerstone or foundation rests upon another rock. So by bringing up the verse calling Jesus the Chief Cornerstone does NOT negate the declaration by Jesus that Peter is the rock upon which He built His Church.

None of what I mentioned above takes away or denies His divinity or His omnipotence.

 

[eazyduzit]

Works* of the law*. Don’t forget to add those last 3 words.

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.–Romans 3:8

If that’s what you mean, then, yes. We do not need to perform any of the Mosaic rituals in order to be justified.

Agreed, but what is your bottom line? What do you say we need to perform, if anything?

 

[eazyduzit]

In His human form, Jesus absolutely needed someone to support Him. His mother supported Him while He was growing. Simon the Cyrene supported Him when helping Him carry His cross. Angels supported Him after He had fasted for 40 days in the desert. And His mother, other women, and Joseph of Arimethea supported Him when they took His Body down from the cross, cleaned and tended Him, and placed Him in the tomb.

And we support Him when the Holy Spirit transforms the bread and wine into His Body and Blood. He lays His Body completely in our hands, to minister to Him, and treat Him reverently (although some do not). He comes to us in a completely helpless form entrusting to us His Body and Blood.

And ascribing to Jesus the metaphor of being the Chief Cornerstone does not deny His omnipotence. The metaphor does NOT preclude Peter from being the rock upon which the Church is built. That was my point. A cornerstone or foundation rests upon another rock. So by bringing up the verse calling Jesus the Chief Cornerstone does NOT negate the declaration by Jesus that Peter is the rock upon which He built His Church.

Dude, that’s just double talk. Jesus said to build your house on a solid rock that does not move. God is the only one that never changes. Everything else is sand. (Jesus is God).Jesus
Said “I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH” We just need to give Him the chance to do it. When that happens, then He gets the glory and not us.

None of what I mentioned above takes away or denies His divinity or His omnipotence.

 

[PRmerger]

Agreed, but what is your bottom line? What do you say we need to perform, if anything?

This is what Scripture says we need to “perform”:

We need to

Believe in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

Repent (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

Be baptized (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

Eat his flesh and drink his blood(Jn 6)

Declare with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

Come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

Perform works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

Accept his grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

Be cleansed by his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

Be justified by his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

Accept his Cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:1)

 

[Porknpie]

Citation for where they disagreed over Peter being the rock.

St. Augustine’s words below speak for themselves.

“Number the bishops from the See of Peter itself. And in that order of Fathers see who has succeeded whom. That is the rock against which the gates of hell do not prevail” Augustine, Psalm against the Party of Donatus, 18 (A.D. 393).

“I am held in the communion of the Catholic Church by…and by the succession of bishops from the very seat of Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection commended His sheep to be fed up to the present episcopate.” Augustine, Against the Letter of Mani, 5 (A.D. 395).

“Carthage was also near the countries over the sea, and distinguished by illustrious renown, so that it had a bishop of more than ordinary influence, who could afford to disregard a number of conspiring enemies because he saw himself joined by letters of communion to the Roman Church, in which the supremacy of an apostolic chair has always flourished.” Augustine, To Glorius et.al, Epistle 43:7 (A.D. 397).

“The chair of the Roman Church, in which Peter sat, and in which Anastasius sits today.” Augustine, Against the Letters of Petillian, 2:51 (A.D. 402).

Interestingly also: St. Augustine was at the Synod of Carthage and was one of the Catholic Bishops that confirmed 73 books in the bible.

 

[zz912]

Dude, that’s just double talk. Jesus said to build your house on a solid rock that does not move. God is the only one that never changes. Everything else is sand. (Jesus is God).Jesus
Said “I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH” We just need to give Him the chance to do it. When that happens, then He gets the glory and not us.

I don’t disagree that God is the rock. But that doesn’t mean that Peter is not the rock that Jesus built His Church upon. You seem to be of the faulty opinion that metaphors can’t be used in any other manner once they’ve been used in Scripture. Why is that?

Also,do you agree that the cornerstone and foundation are different from the bedrock? Yes or no?