Which Churches believe in Mary and honour her and don't believe in her assumption into heaven?

[Esdra]

Hi,

In my religious studies (for my self not in a university or so! ) I found out that there are some (apostolic - those who claim to have Apostolic Succession) Churches who do believe in Mary but don’t believe in her assumption into heaven which is a Dogma from Vaticanum I and (so say the Old Catholic Churches/Utrecht) that this is not to be found in the Bible, neither in the Sacred Tradition.

What exactely do they believe then and which Churches would that be?

Discussions are allowed (I am thinking of discussions which might arise between Anglicans and (Roman or Eastern) Catholics! ) - but please keep it friendly.

Thank you in advance.

God bless you,

 

[Alix1912]

The LCMS as far as I know doesn’t have an offical position one way or another. I don;t see any scriptural basis for her assumption, but I don;t see any contradicting it either. The idea that Mary was bodily assumed into Heaven is mostly a matter of Church Tradition. Provided I am not in Labor on Thursday I am going to ask about it in my Bible Study. I’d love to know the offical stance.

Even as a LCMS, I always assumed she got some sort of special treatment. If anyone deserved to skip the pain of death and go strait to Heaven…it was her. She did everything the Lord asked of her no matter how difficult. And he asked some pretty hard things of her:

Be pregnant and not married, in a culture where this was not accepted at all
Nearly lose betrothed because of it
Ride a donkey across the country 9 months pregnant
Give birth in a barn (basically stinky, dirty cave)
Raise the son of God, and show him what it means to be human (imagine having that added to the normal anxiety of being a good parent)
Lose him for 3 days (can you imagine…Joseph…We lost the Son of God)…Only to have him chastise you when he didn’t tell you where he was going.
Stand by and watch your son tortured and killed knowing that even if you could stop it, you can’t or the entire world is condemned to Hell.

Seriously how many of us mothers out there could do this without complaint or being really angry with God. I know I could not…I would have complained and questioned so loud it would most certainly have been recorded in the Bible. Of course my husband teases me that I never keep anything to myself.

Basically, either answer to the question…Yes or No, is really fine with me.

 

[TimothyH]

Methodist have a reasonably strong devotion to Mary as far as Protestantism goes. There is usually some teaching around Mary during Advent season and my mother and friends seem genuinely excited about it and like to tell me about it during Christmas time. I actually look forward to discussing Mary with my Methodist friends when that time of year rolls around.

I’m sure they don’t believe in the assumption. Methodists are so half way with everything. It’s frustrating.

-Tim-

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

What do you mean by, “believe in Mary”? I’ve never encountered any Christian church that didn’t believe in Mary.

God bless

 

[pablope]

Hi,

In my religious studies (for my self not in a university or so! ) I found out that there are some (apostolic - those who claim to have Apostolic Succession) Churches who do believe in Mary but don’t believe in her assumption into heaven which is a Dogma from Vaticanum I and (so say the Old Catholic Churches/Utrecht) that this is not to be found in the Bible, neither in the Sacred Tradition.

What exactely do they believe then and which Churches would that be?

Thank you in advance.

God bless you,

Click here…
It is too long…here is the link: newadvent.org/fathers/0832.htm

The Account of St. John the Theologian of the Falling Asleep of the Holy Mother of God.

As the all-holy glorious mother of God and ever-virgin Mary, as was her wont, was going to the holy tomb of our Lord to burn incense, and bending her holy knees, she was importunate that Christ our God who had been born of her should return to her. And the Jews, seeing her lingering by the divine sepulchre, came to the chief priests, saying: Mary goes every day to the tomb. And the chief priests, having summoned the guards set by them not to allow any one to pray at the holy sepulchre, inquired about her, whether in truth it were so. And the guards answered and said that they had seen no such thing, God having not allowed them to see her when there. And on one of the days, it being the preparation, the holy Mary, as was her wont, came to the sepulchre; and while she was praying, it came to pass that the heavens were opened, and the archangel Gabriel came down to her and said: Hail, you that brought forth Christ our God! Your prayer having come through to the heavens to Him who was born of you, has been accepted; and from this time, according to your request, you having left the world, shall go to the heavenly places to your Son, into the true and everlasting life.

And having heard this from the holy archangel, she returned to holy Bethlehem, having along with her three virgins who ministered unto her. And after having rested a short time, she sat up and said to the virgins: Bring me a censer, that I may pray. And they brought it, as they had been commanded. And she prayed, saying: My Lord Jesus Christ, who deigned through Your supreme goodness to be born of me, hear my voice, and send me Your apostle John, in order that, seeing him, I may partake of joy; and send me also the rest of Your apostles, both those who have already gone to You, and those in the world that now is, in whatever country they may be, through Your holy commandment, in order that, having beheld them, I may bless Your name much to be praised; for I am confident that You hear Your servant in everything.

And while she was praying, I John came, the Holy Spirit having snatched me up by a cloud from Ephesus, and set me in the place where the mother of my Lord was lying. And having gone in beside her, and glorified Him who had been born of her, I said: Hail, mother of my Lord, who brought forth Christ our God, rejoice that in great glory you are going out of this life. And the holy mother of God glorified God, because I John had come to her, remembering the voice of the Lord, saying: Behold your mother, and, Behold your son. John 19:26-27 And the three virgins came and worshipped. And the holy mother of God says to me: Pray, and cast incense. And I prayed thus: Lord Jesus Christ, who has done wonderful things, now also do wonderful things before her who brought You forth; and let Your mother depart from this life; and let those who crucified You, and who have not believed in You, be confounded. And after I had ended the prayer, holy Mary said to me: Bring me the censer. And having cast incense, she said, Glory to You, my God and my Lord, because there has been fulfilled in me whatsoever You promised to me before you ascended into the heavens, that when I should depart from this world You would come to me, and the multitude of Your angels, with glory. And I John say to her: Jesus Christ our Lord and our God is coming, and you see Him, as He promised to you. And the holy mother of God answered and said to me: The Jews have sworn that after I have died they will burn my body. And I answered and said to her: Your holy and precious body will by no means see corruption. And she answered and said to me: Bring a censer, and cast incense, and pray. And there came a voice out of the heavens saying the Amen. And I John heard this voice; and the Holy Spirit said to me: John, have you heard this voice that spoke in the heaven after the prayer was ended? And I answered and said: Yes, I heard. And the Holy Spirit said to me: This voice which you heard denotes that the appearance of your brethren the apostles is at hand, and of the holy powers that they are coming hither today.

And at this I John prayed.

A

 

[Alix1912]

This is not from any book of the Bible, Catholic or Protestant.

You have to do more than just post a link and such. What are you trying to get at?

 

[hn160]

The LC-MS and the Lutheran Confessions honor Mary as the Mother of God. The Confessions speak of her as Ever-Virgin.
We have her mention in some of our hymns such as:
“O Lord, We Praise Thee”
by Martin Luther, 1483-1546

1. O Lord, we praise Thee, bless Thee, and adore Thee,
   In thanksgiving bow before Thee.
   Thou with Thy body and Thy blood didst nourish
   Our weak souls that they may flouish:
   O Lord, have mercy!
   May Thy body, Lord, born of Mary,
   That our sins and sorrows did carry,
   And Thy blood for us plead
   In all trial, fear, and need:
   O Lord, have mercy!
2. Thy holy body into death was given,
   Life to win for us in heaven.
   No greater love than this to Thee could bind us;
   May this feast thereof remind us!
   O Lord, have mercy!
   Lord, Thy kindness did so constrain Thee
   That Thy blood should bless and sustain me.
   All our debt Thou hast paid;
   Peace with God once more is made:
   O Lord, have mercy.
3. May God bestow on us His grace and favor
   To please Him with our behavior
   And live as brethren here in love and union
   Nor repent this blest Communion!
   O Lord, have mercy!
   Let not Thy good Spirit forsake us;
   Grant that heavenly-minded He make us;
   Give Thy Church, Lord, to see
   Days of peace and unity:
   O Lord, have mercy!

 

[pablope]

This is not from any book of the Bible, Catholic or Protestant.

You have to do more than just post a link and such. What are you trying to get at?

For every NT book, there are about 4 or 5 that did not make it. There were over 200 books/writings all circulating in the first 400 yrs.

This is one such writing. It is an account of the Assumption or Dormition from an early Church writer.

If you search who John the Theologian is, he is John the Apostle.

The Assumption has always been believed by early Cathoics and this knowledge mainly came from the Eastern Churches. This writing is akin to the Protoevangelum of James.

 

[Esdra]

What do you mean by, “believe in Mary”? I’ve never encountered any Christian church that didn’t believe in Mary.

God bless

I mean honouring her in a special way like Catholics and EOs do.

I know that ALL Christians “believe in Mary”.

Sorry for the confusion…

Actually, I am also quite interested in the** Episcopal/Anglican position **(as I don’t think I’ll get an answer about the Old Catholic/Utrecht position. - Knowing that the last is quite unknown in the US. - Except the PNCC.)

Thank you for the position of the Methodists, TimothyH.

Yours,

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I mean honouring her in a special way like Catholics and EOs do.

I know that ALL Christians “believe in Mary”.

Sorry for the confusion…

Actually, I am also quite interested in the** Episcopal/Anglican position **(as I don’t think I’ll get an answer about the Old Catholic/Utrecht position. - Knowing that the last is quite unknown in the US. - Except the PNCC.)

Thank you for the position of the Methodists, TimothyH.

Yours,

Ah I highly recommend you read on what the reformers taught and believed about her then. I think that would be right up your alley

God bless

 

[Alix1912]

For every NT book, there are about 4 or 5 that did not make it. There were over 200 books/writings all circulating in the first 400 yrs.

This is one such writing. It is an account of the Assumption or Dormition from an early Church writer.

If you search who John the Theologian is, he is John the Apostle.

The Assumption has always been believed by early Cathoics and this knowledge mainly came from the Eastern Churches. This writing is akin to the Protoevangelum of James.

Ok, but the 4-5 that did not make it are not considered canon. They may be traditional in the Catholic faith, but they aren’t cannon. Several are actually considered heretical like the Gospel of Thomas. You cannot use them as an argument that there is biblical evidence for or against the assumption of Mary. This doctrine wasn’t even codified in the Catholic Faith until the Late Middle Ages or Renissaunce.

 

[Hail_Linus]

Hi,

In my religious studies (for my self not in a university or so! ) I found out that there are some (apostolic - those who claim to have Apostolic Succession) Churches who do believe in Mary but don’t believe in her assumption into heaven which is a Dogma from Vaticanum I and (so say the Old Catholic Churches/Utrecht) that this is not to be found in the Bible, neither in the Sacred Tradition.

What exactely do they believe then and which Churches would that be?

Discussions are allowed (I am thinking of discussions which might arise between Anglicans and (Roman or Eastern) Catholics! ) - but please keep it friendly.

Thank you in advance.

God bless you,

Actually, you are not correct. The Old Catholic Church as well as the Eastern Orthodox Churches do not accept Papal Infallibility and therefore do not accept any dogma formalized by the Pope. Since they do not accept any dogma by the Pope they do not recognize the Assumption of Mary as Dogma.

However, they do believe in the Assumption of Mary is part of there theology. The Old Catholic Church even has a Holy Day of Obligation for this belief in August.

There is one difference between Latin Rite Catholics and Easter Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. The Latin Rite believes Mary died and was assumed while the Easter Churches believe she feel asleep and was assumed. I do not know which way the Old Catholic Church views this but since they are of Western European origin I would guess the belief about the assumption of Mary is more like the Latin Rite.

So the bottom line is that all of the Apostolic Churches believe in the Assumption of Mary. If one wishes to categorize the Anglican Church as an Apostolic Church then needs to recognize the Anglican Church used to believe it also. However, as Puritanism gained more and more influence over the Anglican Church, the belief in the Assumption of Mary was eventually removed from their theology.

 

[nhylan]

Actually, you are not correct. The Old Catholic Church as well as the Eastern Orthodox Churches do not accept Papal Infallibility and therefore do not accept any dogma formalized by the Pope. Since they do not accept any dogma by the Pope they do not recognize the Assumption of Mary as Dogma.

However, they do believe in the Assumption of Mary is part of there theology. The Old Catholic Church even has a Holy Day of Obligation for this belief in August.

There is one difference between Latin Rite Catholics and Easter Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. The Latin Rite believes Mary died and was assumed while the Easter Churches believe she feel asleep and was assumed. I do not know which way the Old Catholic Church views this but since they are of Western European origin I would guess the belief about the assumption of Mary is more like the Latin Rite.

So the bottom line is that all of the Apostolic Churches believe in the Assumption of Mary. If one wishes to categorize the Anglican Church as an Apostolic Church then needs to recognize the Anglican Church used to believe it also. However, as Puritanism gained more and more influence over the Anglican Church, the belief in the Assumption of Mary was eventually removed from their theology.

Anglican’s don’t have an official position on her assumption into heaven.You’ll find Anglican’s that believe it and some that don’t. Its Adiaphora for us.

 

[pablope]

Ok, but the 4-5 that did not make it are not considered canon. They may be traditional in the Catholic faith, but they aren’t cannon. Several are actually considered heretical like the Gospel of Thomas. You cannot use them as an argument that there is biblical evidence for or against the assumption of Mary.

Correct, but it is reflective of the early knowledge and belief in the Assumption. There are reasons why some books did not make it. Some are heretical and some are not.

Take the Didache, was it heretical? But it did not make it to the final canon.

If you go back to one of the original reasonings for compiling the Bible, it was to have a standard set of writings for the Liturgy of the Word in all masses.

I think the OP asked for early belief in the Assumption. This proves that there was early knowledge of the assumption or dormition, by both West and East, and it was mainly from the East.

.

This doctrine wasn’t even codified in the Catholic Faith until the Late Middle Ages or Renissaunce

Confused me here? What do you mean codified?

 

[Alix1912]

Confused me here? What do you mean codified?

Sorry, new wording. The doctrine that Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven was not made offical until the 1950’s, by Pope Pius, who deliberatly did not clarify if she died first or not.

The General belief that Mary was assumed at least spiritualy and possibliy bodily into heaven has it’s roots in the 5th and 6th century. Up until the Middle ages and Renissaunce there were groups in both camps, that she was bodily assumed or that she was only spiritually assumed. There was art commissioned that exists still today and displayed in churches that shows both options.

To me it matters not either way. I kinda like the thought that she was bodily and spiritually assumed into heaven, and did not have to endure death, as she certainly was worthy of that fate.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Actually, you are not correct. The Old Catholic Church as well as the Eastern Orthodox Churches do not accept Papal Infallibility and therefore do not accept any dogma formalized by the Pope. Since they do not accept any dogma by the Pope they do not recognize the Assumption of Mary as Dogma.

However, they do believe in the Assumption of Mary is part of there theology. The Old Catholic Church even has a Holy Day of Obligation for this belief in August.

There is one difference between Latin Rite Catholics and Easter Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. The Latin Rite believes Mary died and was assumed while the Easter Churches believe she feel asleep and was assumed. I do not know which way the Old Catholic Church views this but since they are of Western European origin I would guess the belief about the assumption of Mary is more like the Latin Rite.

So the bottom line is that all of the Apostolic Churches believe in the Assumption of Mary. If one wishes to categorize the Anglican Church as an Apostolic Church then needs to recognize the Anglican Church used to believe it also. However, as Puritanism gained more and more influence over the Anglican Church, the belief in the Assumption of Mary was eventually removed from their theology.

The Eastern Churches all believe that she did die, but that her death was so “light” that it is seen as a “falling asleep” or a “dormition.” This is just another way of saying that she had a very “easy” or “light” experience of death owing to her sanctification from her Conception as the All-Holy Mother of God.

Any Christian Church that has August 15th on their calendar will at least have the “vestiges” of the universal Christian belief, from earliest times, that the Mother of the Divine Word Incarnate was assumed by her Son, body and soul, into heaven. The Roman Catholic Church formally defines this, but the Eastern Churches do not since there was no need as: 1) No one in the East ever questioned or attacked this; 2) It is contained within the liturgical tradition and “lex orandi, lex credendi.”

Alex

 

[Esdra]

Actually, you are not correct. The Old Catholic Church as well as the Eastern Orthodox Churches do not accept Papal Infallibility and therefore do not accept any dogma formalized by the Pope. Since they do not accept any dogma by the Pope they do not recognize the Assumption of Mary as Dogma.

However, they do believe in the Assumption of Mary is part of there theology. The Old Catholic Church even has a Holy Day of Obligation for this belief in August.

There is one difference between Latin Rite Catholics and Easter Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. The Latin Rite believes Mary died and was assumed while the Easter Churches believe she feel asleep and was assumed. I do not know which way the Old Catholic Church views this but since they are of Western European origin I would guess the belief about the assumption of Mary is more like the Latin Rite.

So the bottom line is that all of the Apostolic Churches believe in the Assumption of Mary. If one wishes to categorize the Anglican Church as an Apostolic Church then needs to recognize the Anglican Church used to believe it also. However, as Puritanism gained more and more influence over the Anglican Church, the belief in the Assumption of Mary was eventually removed from their theology.

My two cents: Judging from the things I read from Old Catholics about their faith: They DO except the Dogmas of the seven eucumenical councils.
Actually, the split from the Roman Catholic Church occured on Vaticanum I, the problem points were papal infallability and “Jurisdiction-Primate” of the pope.

Other points they don’t believe are (according to the GERMAN wikipedia; the English one writes it differently, 'though more detailled about History etc.): Immaculate Conception, Assumption of Mary and Transsubstitution - All though they definitely believe in the Real Presence! (They are similar like the Methodists saying that they can’t explain what’s happening when celebrating the Lord’s Supper. At least I have understood it this way.)

 

[pablope]

The Eastern Churches all believe that she did die, but that her death was so “light” that it is seen as a “falling asleep” or a “dormition.” This is just another way of saying that she had a very “easy” or “light” experience of death owing to her sanctification from her Conception as the All-Holy Mother of God.

Any Christian Church that has August 15th on their calendar will at least have the “vestiges” of the universal Christian belief, from earliest times, that the Mother of the Divine Word Incarnate was assumed by her Son, body and soul, into heaven. The Roman Catholic Church formally defines this, but the Eastern Churches do not since there was no need as: 1) No one in the East ever questioned or attacked this; 2) It is contained within the liturgical tradition and “lex orandi, lex credendi.”

Alex

Hi, Alex,

You may find this article interesting:

catholicnewsagency.com/news/romes-exorcist-finding-bl.-john-paul-ii-effective-against-satan/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+catholicnewsagency%2Fdailynews-vatican+%28CNA+Daily+News±+Vatican%29&utm_content=My+Yahoo

[SIGN]
And the most powerful intercessor of all?

“Of course, the Madonna is even more effective. Ah, when you invoke Mary!”

“And, once I also asked Satan, ‘but why are you more scared when I invoke Our Lady than when I invoke Jesus Christ?’ He answered me, ‘Because I am more humiliated to be defeated by a human creature than being defeated by him.” [/SIGN]