Which Councils Contradict other Councils?

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Hi guys, quick question.

In discussions with my Protestant buddies they are often quick to point out that Church Councils cannot be authoritative or infallible because they “have not only erred but they contradict each other” (a line from Luther I believe). So I’ve taken to asking them: Which councils? I’ve yet to have anyone point those out to me.

Anyway, I’m willing to believe they exist. The only one that I’ve found though (debates about Vatican II not withstanding) is “the robber council” of 449.

So what other council’s disagree with previous councils? And how does the Church deal with that?

Thanks,
Gwill.
 
If someone claims that a given council contradicted another, they’d need to provide the evidence that leads them to believe that, or otherwise explain why they believe it. The other thing they need to explain is, why is it they believe a council cannot contradict something from another council. Are the councils infallible (to their understanding) when it comes to Doctrine…were the things discussed matters of Doctrine, etc…

I’ll go ahead and assert that no Church Council that has definitively defined authentic Catholic Doctrine has ever contradicted another council that definitively defined the same Doctrine. This reframes the discussion into proper context. We are no longer chasing squirrels to find out where one Bishop disagreed with another and where such disagreement got recorded in writing. Now we are looking at what actually matters, that is, “Can authentic Church Doctrine change or be contradicted by other authentic Church Doctrine?” For those who still claim such has happened, the onus is now on them to show the evidence.
 
Hi guys, quick question.

In discussions with my Protestant buddies they are often quick to point out that Church Councils cannot be authoritative or infallible because they “have not only erred but they contradict each other” (a line from Luther I believe). So I’ve taken to asking them: Which councils? I’ve yet to have anyone point those out to me.

Anyway, I’m willing to believe they exist. The only one that I’ve found though (debates about Vatican II not withstanding) is “the robber council” of 449.

So what other council’s disagree with previous councils? And how does the Church deal with that?

Thanks,
Gwill.
I believe it is Vatican I that claims the pope has ordinary and immediate jurisdiction over all the Church. This is contradiction to Nicea, canon 6.
Understandably, our Catholic friends here will dispute this.

Jon
 
I believe it is Vatican I that claims the pope has ordinary and immediate jurisdiction over all the Church. This is contradiction to Nicea, canon 6.
Understandably, our Catholic friends here will dispute this.

Jon
Could you please quote canon 6. We should not have to google to try to find it.
 
Could you please quote canon 6. We should not have to google to try to find it.
Sorry.
Let the ancient customs in Egypt, Libya and Pentapolis prevail, that the Bishop of Alexandria have jurisdiction in all these, since the like is customary for the Bishop of Rome also. Likewise in Antioch and the other provinces, let the Churches retain their privileges.
Jon
 
philvaz.com/apologetics/CouncilNicaeaSixthCanon.htm

In other words, Just like every Bishop has authority over his general area, so the Bishop of Alexandrian enjoys this “privilege”.

There’s nothing there that conflicts with the universal jurisdiction of the Pope, the See of Peter, whom the earliest of Christians recognized as having primacy.
 
philvaz.com/apologetics/CouncilNicaeaSixthCanon.htm

In other words, Just like every Bishop has authority over his general area, so the Bishop of Alexandrian enjoys this “privilege”.

There’s nothing there that conflicts with the universal jurisdiction of the Pope, the See of Peter, whom the earliest of Christians recognized as having primacy.
Except that it says, “since the like is customary for the Bishop of Rome also.” IOW, the Bishop of Alexandria’s is like that of the Bishop of Rome. Now, unless they both have universal jurisdiction, what it means is the Bishop of Rome has his jurisdiction, and the Bishop of Alexandria his, etc., and their privilege is the same.

There is a difference between primacy, which the early Church recognized, and universal jurisdiction, which even today Orthodoxy does not.

Jon
 
Except that it says, “since the like is customary for the Bishop of Rome also.” IOW, the Bishop of Alexandria’s is like that of the Bishop of Rome. Now, unless they both have universal jurisdiction, what it means is the Bishop of Rome has his jurisdiction, and the Bishop of Alexandria his, etc., and their privilege is the same.

There is a difference between primacy, which the early Church recognized, and universal jurisdiction, which even today Orthodoxy does not.

Jon
“…the like…” of what? The “like” of having the privilege of jurisdiction over those who are under the Bishop. Every Bishop has this. The Bishop of Alexandria is “like” the Bishop of Rome in that he has jurisdiction, like the Bishop of Rome has jurisdiction. But there is nothing here that says there is not a universal jurisdiction of Rome. In other words, Just like every Bishop has authority over his general area, so the Bishop of Alexandrian enjoys this “privilege”. You are seeing an “equal” sign where there is not one.

I’m not sure how Peter’s Primacy is different than universal jurisdiction. Peter was handed an office (Mt 16:19 cf. Is 22:22) and that office was in Rome (and for a time in Alexandria…but ultimately in Rome per the witness of the Early Church). Unless Christ meant for Peter’s office to be split up, and thus His Church divided, then there is no logic in believing that Peter’s See could be in 2 places. The earliest Christians testify that Peter and his successors are seated in Rome, and in Rome the Office resides. It doesn’t matter if the Orthodox reject this…that’s irrelevant to the fact that Peter has a Primacy, his Office is in Rome, and the earliest Christians testify to this. If that does not directly tie into universal jurisdiction, then you must logically admit that Christ intended for His Church to be divided…and that’s not a logical position.
 
“…the like…” of what? The “like” of having the privilege of jurisdiction over those who are under the Bishop. Every Bishop has this. The Bishop of Alexandria is “like” the Bishop of Rome in that he has jurisdiction, like the Bishop of Rome has jurisdiction. But there is nothing here that says there is not a universal jurisdiction of Rome. In other words, Just like every Bishop has authority over his general area, so the Bishop of Alexandrian enjoys this “privilege”. You are seeing an “equal” sign where there is not one.

I’m not sure how Peter’s Primacy is different than universal jurisdiction. Peter was handed an office (Mt 16:19 cf. Is 22:22) and that office was in Rome (and for a time in Alexandria…but ultimately in Rome per the witness of the Early Church). Unless Christ meant for Peter’s office to be split up, and thus His Church divided, then there is no logic in believing that Peter’s See could be in 2 places. The earliest Christians testify that Peter and his successors are seated in Rome, and in Rome the Office resides. It doesn’t matter if the Orthodox reject this…that’s irrelevant to the fact that Peter has a Primacy, his Office is in Rome, and the earliest Christians testify to this. If that does not directly tie into universal jurisdiction, then you must logically admit that Christ intended for His Church to be divided…and that’s not a logical position.
And herein lies the thousand year-old dispute…

Jon
 
Hi guys, quick question.

In discussions with my Protestant buddies they are often quick to point out that Church Councils cannot be authoritative or infallible because they “have not only erred but they contradict each other” (a line from Luther I believe). So I’ve taken to asking them: Which councils? I’ve yet to have anyone point those out to me.

Anyway, I’m willing to believe they exist. The only one that I’ve found though (debates about Vatican II not withstanding) is “the robber council” of 449.

So what other council’s disagree with previous councils? And how does the Church deal with that?

Thanks,
Gwill.
Some others have alluded to it, but there are many, many times one council has superseded another. This probably happens all the time with regards to organization, discipline, and the like. This is no more problematic than changing the speed limit on a road, so the only necessary thing the Church needs to do to adapt, is to simply accept the new council.

If your buddies are making the claim that they contradict each other with respect to dogma, doctrine, revealed truth, etc, then I simply point out it is their burden to prove. Have them give document references, etc. Actual quotes, with preceding and subsequent paragraphs for context, not just “this said this and that said that”. Then go from there, e.g., from the library at CA or other reputable apologetics sources.

Any other type of inconsistency is perfectly acceptable.
 
Except that it says, “since the like is customary for the Bishop of Rome also.” IOW, the Bishop of Alexandria’s is like that of the Bishop of Rome. Now, unless they both have universal jurisdiction, what it means is the Bishop of Rome has his jurisdiction, and the Bishop of Alexandria his, etc., and their privilege is the same.

There is a difference between primacy, which the early Church recognized, and universal jurisdiction, which even today Orthodoxy does not.

Jon
“Let the ancient customs in Egypt, Libya and Pentapolis prevail, that the Bishop of Alexandria have jurisdiction in all these, since the like is customary for the Bishop of Rome also. Likewise in Antioch and the other provinces, let the Churches retain their privileges.”

I still don’t understand what you’re getting at. This appears to say that the Bishop of Alexandria has jurisdiction in a couple areas. Check. “…since the like is customary for the Bishop of Rome also.” Well, the Bishop of Rome is in fact the bishop of the diocese of Rome. This could be read as the Bishop of Alexandria is to his stuff as the Bishop of Rome is to Rome, I suppose, but there is no reason to assume that this says anything at all about universal jurisdiction. The bishop of Alexandria has the same duties to his diocese as the bishop of Rome does to his, because both are bishops of their diocese, and both are responsible for them. The Bishop of Rome also has further responsibilities, not referenced here. That they are not referenced right there does not mean they don’t exist.

Or the the line could be read as "Let the bishop of Alexandria actually have authority in these regions, since it is the custom of the bishop of Rome that he has such. That is, since it is customary for the bishop of Rome that the Bishop of Alexandria have authority in certain places, let it be so. Since it is followed by, essentially, “Likewise in these other dioceses,” that may make more sense - “The bishop of Alexandria has authority in X places, because the Pope says so - likewise these other Bishops have authority in their respective places.”

In fact, there would be no reason whatsoever to interpret this canon as a limitation on Papal authority, unless it were directly intended to be such - but that wouldn’t make historical sense. To intend it as such would require that the idea of Papal primacy was a known (which it was, though many protestants like to pretend it wasn’t). But if it was a known idea which they were putting down, they would have just put it down. “Peter isn’t that special, deal with it” sort of language. They weren’t afraid of that. “If anyone says [something stupid] let him be anathema” was pretty common language.

But clearly this is not the case. The only other way that this could mean what you say it means is if it is an extremely round about way of saying all bishops are the same without having any particular reason for doing so. First you’d have to ask why they’d bother to say that if it was a known. There’d be no reason.

But let’s lay that aside for the moment. Why then say that “the bishop of Antioch is the same as the bishop of Rome in his area. Similarly, the other bishops are also the same as the bishop of Rome.” That is a very silly way to say that all bishops are the same. It’d be much better to say that “The bishop of Antioch is the same in these areas under his authority as all other bishops are in their respective areas.” That is, why reference the bishop of Rome in a special way at all? Unless they were talking specifically about his claim to universal jurisdiction. Which they weren’t. Because if they were then, by above, they would have simply said that such didn’t exist.

So what’s actually happening here is that some people didn’t like the idea of Papal authority, and so went digging to see what there was that could refute it, then completely and totally ignored all the surrounding writings and beliefs of everyone at any time (including those who wrote the document) so that they could twist a single canon of a council, in isolation, so that it sounded like it said what they wanted it to say.

This is a pretty common tactic actually. It’s how the world got faith alone and scripture alone too.
 
And herein lies the thousand year-old dispute…

Jon
Well…Jon…prior to the thousand year dispute…why was not it disputed in the thousand years prior to the thousand year dispute?
 
Well…Jon…prior to the thousand year dispute…why was not it disputed in the thousand years prior to the thousand year dispute?
Well, its actually older than a thousand years, but the reason is it wasn’t claimed in the early Church.

Jon
 
Hi guys, quick question.

In discussions with my Protestant buddies they are often quick to point out that Church Councils cannot be authoritative or infallible because they “have not only erred but they contradict each other” (a line from Luther I believe). So I’ve taken to asking them: Which councils? I’ve yet to have anyone point those out to me.

Anyway, I’m willing to believe they exist. The only one that I’ve found though (debates about Vatican II not withstanding) is “the robber council” of 449.

So what other council’s disagree with previous councils? And how does the Church deal with that?

Thanks,
Gwill.
Well, I believe that you Protestant buddies have broken the law and they should be arrested and put in jail.

You might ask:
Well, what did they do?

I respond:
I don’t have the specifics.

Should they go to jail regardless?

If they are bringing an accusation, they need to produce the evidence for such an accusation. Otherwise, it’s just an “itsy fit”.

On the same hand, Why should you be willing to believe they did?

They have to produce the evidence. The burden of proof is on them.
 
Sure I do. I am, after all, a western Christian.

Jon
So correct me if Im wrong…
  1. You believe either side “could be” correct.
  2. You believe only one of the two sides is correct.
  3. If one of the 2 sides emerge as correct in the eyes of both, you are still not on the correct side but you are willing to wait and see which one it is.
Do I have this right Jon?

Peace brother!!!
 
So correct me if Im wrong…
  1. You believe either side “could be” correct.
  2. You believe only one of the two sides is correct.
  3. If one of the 2 sides emerge as correct in the eyes of both, you are still not on the correct side but you are willing to wait and see which one it is.
Do I have this right Jon?

Peace brother!!!
  1. Yes, though the evidence of the early councils leads me to believe the Orthodox position.
  2. Well, yes. The pope either has universal jurisdiction or he doesn’t. Maybe a third way I am not aware of?
  1. I.m not sure I understand. If the two sides agree and come to unity, I would enter RCIA the next day. Why? It would be an undeniable and irresistible movement of the Spirit in His Church
Peace also with you.
Jon
 
  1. Yes, though the evidence of the early councils leads me to believe the Orthodox position.
  2. Well, yes. The pope either has universal jurisdiction or he doesn’t. Maybe a third way I am not aware of?
  1. I.m not sure I understand. If the two sides agree and come to unity, I would enter RCIA the next day. Why? It would be an undeniable and irresistible movement of the Spirit in His Church
Peace also with you.
Jon
Yea I think I’ve seen you post this before…so why and I having such a hard time understanding this reasoning?:banghead: You don’t have to answer.😛
 
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