Which denominations do not believe Jesus had siblings?

[Tmaque]

ahimsaman72:

I would posit that because of Paul’s lifestyle - constantly traveling (missionary role) and teaching - that this really is the reason he even mentioned it. Imagine him having a wife and children at home only getting to see him on rare occasions. It would have been painful for him and his family.

I’ve always said that you can’t base a doctrine on one verse or even a couple of verses. You have to look at the big picture and weigh the pros and cons. I think there’s more cons on this issue. I believe it has only perpretated scandals. That’s all I can say…

The Orthodox have gotten along quite well with their practice of having wives. I wouldn’t say they are any less effective as spiritual counselors as Catholics.

You’re free to disagree with the discipline of celibacy for most priests. It’s not a doctrine of the church. It’s a discipline of the Roman rite. All the 20 other rites of the Catholic church allow it.
Many Catholics would agree with you that celibacy should be optional for priests.

 

[ahimsaman72]

mtr01:

Once again…

However, as pointed out in the previous post, married bishops were expected to live continently once ordained and appointed.

To me, the idea of telling a man who has been sleeping with his wife for 20, 30 years that he now has to stop because of a practice within this church is incredible. The Bible speaks of not depriving each other except by mutual consent and THEN only for a limited time. This is against the nature of a marriage and would be disgraceful to the wife.

 

[mercygate]

ahimsaman72:

To me, the idea of telling a man who has been sleeping with his wife for 20, 30 years that he now has to stop because of a practice within this church is incredible. The Bible speaks of not depriving each other except by mutual consent and THEN only for a limited time. This is against the nature of a marriage and would be disgraceful to the wife.

Think about it, ahimsaman72. This is definitely not an idea that could have been imposed from above. It could only have arisen from the experience and practice of those who actually lived it.

 

[ahimsaman72]

Tmaque:

You’re free to disagree with the discipline of celibacy for most priests. It’s not a doctrine of the church. It’s a discipline of the Roman rite. All the 20 other rites of the Catholic church allow it.
Many Catholics would agree with you that celibacy should be optional for priests.

Thank you. I certainly choose to disagree. For some reason, this issue and other issues move me more than others. It’s a sticking point that won’t go away.

Peace to you…

 

[ahimsaman72]

mercygate:

Think about it, ahimsaman72. This is definitely not an idea that could have been imposed from above. It could only have arisen from the experience and practice of those who actually lived it.

I feel like I’m brain-dead right now . I don’t really get what you are saying . Can you explain?

 

[Tmaque]

1ST CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 7
27
Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek a separation. Are you free of a wife? Then do not look for a wife.
28
If you marry, however, you do not sin, nor does an unmarried woman sin if she marries; but such people will experience affliction in their earthly life, and I would like to spare you that.

It should be apparent to any objective person that Paul was recommending celibacy. Why on earth would he recommend celibacy to everyone but then say that a Bishop MUST be married? It’s laughable…it’s seeing what you WANT to see instead of what is there.

 

[mercygate]

ahimsaman72:

I feel like I’m brain-dead right now . I don’t really get what you are saying . Can you explain?

What I’m saying is that those who embraced celibacy or continence in marriage upon ordination did it out of their zeal for the faith and in imitation of the pattern set by Our Lord in his own life, by his counsel to become a “eunuch for the Kingdom,” and by Paul’s advocacy of celibacy.

There was no absolute mandate for clerical celibacy handed down from above in the very beginning. The value of such a life was appreciated from the earliest days and affirmed over time by the living of it. The custom became widespread very early and was later defined as the expected practice of the Church as she matured.

 

[Tmaque]

In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus states, “Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some because they have **renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. ** Whoever can accept this ought to accept it” (19:12). This is an invitation from Christ to live as he did, and there can be nothing unacceptable in that.

Oh, all except you Bishops…you MUST be married!! LOL!!!

You guys are a real hoot!

 

[ahimsaman72]

1ST CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 7
27
Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek a separation. Are you free of a wife? Then do not look for a wife.
28
If you marry, however, you do not sin, nor does an unmarried woman sin if she marries; but such people will experience affliction in their earthly life, and I would like to spare you that.

It should be apparent to any objective person that Paul was recommending celibacy. Why on earth would he recommend celibacy to everyone but then say that a Bishop MUST be married? It’s laughable…it’s seeing what you WANT to see instead of what is there.

For the record, I never said a bishop had to be married. The simple fact is that it was a practice for them to be married. You see what you want to see. Paul is not contradicting himself. It is apparent only to you. I see a non-chalant attitude by Paul on the matter. He seems to really take no sides on the issue. I see his approach as balanced and yours as unbalanced.

 

[ahimsaman72]

mercygate:

What I’m saying is that those who embraced celibacy or continence in marriage upon ordination did it out of their zeal for the faith and in imitation of the pattern set by Our Lord in his own life, by his counsel to become a “eunuch for the Kingdom,” and by Paul’s advocacy of celibacy.

There was no absolute mandate for clerical celibacy handed down from above in the very beginning. The value of such a life was appreciated from the earliest days and affirmed over time by the living of it. The custom became widespread very early and was later defined as the expected practice of the Church as she matured.

Aaahhhhh…okay, I see what you’re saying. Sorry, had a lapse there. Yes, I would agree they perhaps would do it out of zeal. The problem is - we really don’t know that in each case.

 

[ahimsaman72]

Tmaque:

In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus states, “Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some because they have **renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. **Whoever can accept this ought to accept it” (19:12). This is an invitation from Christ to live as he did, and there can be nothing unacceptable in that.

Oh, all except you Bishops…you MUST be married!! LOL!!!

You guys are a real hoot!

Now you are being plain silly :whacky:.

If the intention is for all to be celibate, then why does Paul even mention deacons and bishops as possibly having wives? Is it a concession? No.

The point I’m trying to make is that it is not a requirement from Scripture, but it is a requirement of the Catholic Church. It should be optional for priests and bishops.

 

[Katholikos]

SPOKENWORD:

You see my answers are not off base,its your understanding that is the problem. You might want to pray for some revelation truth.You only can have Gods truth if you allow His Word to enter in. You have to know whats Gods Word is.? Example]. There is this bank giving away 100 dollar bills.This information is not known to you so it has no effect on you. Now you hear about this bank and you go get the 100 bill,and you recieve it. Gods Word is the same. If you dont know Gods Word you do not know it exists. Only when you recieve it can you understand it and live it. God Bless.

Spokenword, I’ve asked you many times on other threads to tell us exactly what God’s Word is, and precisely which writings are 'God’s Word," and how you know.

There are many Christian organizations that have different versions of “God’s Word” (different Bibles with different tables of contents), so how do you know which one is right? For example, how do you know the letter that a presbyter (priest) named John wrote to his friend Gaius*** is*** the Word of God, and the letter from Barnabas, companion of St. Paul, is not? Do you get a burning in the bosom like Mormons do?

Do the Ethiopian Orthodox have the “Word of God” in their 81 writings? Or is the Catholic Church correct with 73 writings? Or why would the minimalist Protestants be right with only 66 writings? And there are others.

gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/canon2.stm

See my thread Which Bible? What canon? in the apologetics forum.

You can’t say which writings are the Word of God of your own knowledge. For the NT, you take the Catholic Church’s word for it. For the OT, you follow Martin Luther’s reduced canon.

You’ve only got part of the written Word of God and none of the Spoken Word of God that was preserved in the ancient Catholic and Orthodox Churches as Sacred Apostolic Tradition.

And you read what little of the Word of God you do have out of context. You can’t get the right meaning out of it unless you know the meaning the Sacred Writers put into it.

Where in the Bible does it say “these writings are the Word of God” and name them?

So you’re the one that’s a quart low.

Peace be with you,

JMJ Jay

 

[Katholikos]

ahimsaman72:

The point I’m trying to make is that it is not a requirement from Scripture, but it is a requirement of the Catholic Church. It should be optional for priests and bishops.

Why should it be optional? Celibacy is required by the job description of a priest in the Roman (Latin) Rite Church. If a man does not feel called to the celibate life, he should not apply for the job. Just as a man without a college degree should not apply for the job. Marriage is permitted to priests of the Eastern Catholic churches who each function under their own laws, but not to their bishops. And a priest who is not married is not allowed to marry.

Celibacy is a discipline, not a doctrine. Why the job requirements of a Catholic priest of the Roman (Latin) Rite Church should be of interest to you as a Baptist is beyond my comprehension. The Church can certainly write the job requirements for her own clergy.

JMJ Jay

 

[AmyS]

Malachi4U:

Thank you for this insitefull information. I now know that the Catholics are the largest non-Christian group in the world. So, what do we call 1+ BILLION Catholics now if not Christian?

Catholics aren’t a Christian denomination… We are the Christian nomination!

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Katholikos:

Spokenword, I’ve asked you many times on other threads to tell us exactly what God’s Word is, and precisely which writings are 'God’s Word," and how you know.

There are many Christian organizations that have different versions of “God’s Word” (different Bibles with different tables of contents), so how do you know which one is right? For example, how do you know the letter that a presbyter (priest) named John wrote to his friend Gaius*** is*** the Word of God, and the letter from Barnabas, companion of St. Paul, is not? Do you get a burning in the bosom like Mormons do?

Do the Ethiopian Orthodox have the “Word of God” in their 81 writings? Or is the Catholic Church correct with 73 writings? Or why would the minimalist Protestants be right with only 66 writings? And there are others.

gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/canon2.stm

See my thread Which Bible? What canon? in the apologetics forum.

You can’t say which writings are the Word of God of your own knowledge. For the NT, you take the Catholic Church’s word for it. For the OT, you follow Martin Luther’s reduced canon.

You’ve only got part of the written Word of God and none of the Spoken Word of God that was preserved in the ancient Catholic and Orthodox Churches as Sacred Apostolic Tradition.

And you read what little of the Word of God you do have out of context. You can’t get the right meaning out of it unless you know the meaning the Sacred Writers put into it.

Where in the Bible does it say “these writings are the Word of God” and name them?

So you’re the one that’s a quart low.

Peace be with you,

JMJ Jay

I may be a quart low but you are on empty. Im not really surprised that you dont know Gods Word well.I think you need to pray to God that He may reveal it to you as you read the scriptures. Do you pay attention when you go to church? I believe after every reading before the homily a pronouncement is made . I believe they say THE WORD OF GOD. Does that ring a bell. That wasnt you snoring was it? God Bless

 

[ahimsaman72]

Katholikos:

Why should it be optional? Celibacy is required by the job description of a priest in the Roman (Latin) Rite Church. If a man does not feel called to the celibate life, he should not apply for the job. Just as a man without a college degree should not apply for the job. Marriage is permitted to priests of the Eastern Catholic churches who each function under their own laws, but not to their bishops. And a priest who is not married is not allowed to marry.

Celibacy is a discipline, not a doctrine. Why the job requirements of a Catholic priest of the Roman (Latin) Rite Church should be of interest to you as a Baptist is beyond my comprehension. The Church can certainly write the job requirements for her own clergy.

JMJ Jay

It should be optional because it’s not a commandment of Scripture. You yourself call it a discipline of the Church and not doctrine. I believe they would be much happier and there would be less scandals.

I don’t consider the priestly position a job. This is the kingdom of God, not UPS. This is of interest to me because I have sought to learn and understand the Catholic Church in comparison with my own faith tradition. Of course the Catholic Church can choose how she operates - that’s her realm. I simply disagree with the practice.

 

[Dismas2004]

And Celibacy in the priesthood is something we can all agree on or disagree with. It had no bearing on the faith.

Likewise whether Jesus had siblings(so long as if you believe he did, you believe thay came form Joseph) makes no difference either. It’s a matter of legend, not faith or morals!

 

[rlg94086]

Dismas2004:

And Celibacy in the priesthood is something we can all agree on or disagree with. It had no bearing on the faith.

Likewise whether Jesus had siblings***(so long as if you believe he did, you believe thay came form Joseph)*** makes no difference either. It’s a matter of legend, not faith or morals!

If what you mean is “Joseph, but not Mary” you are correct.

Otherwise, there is a little problem with the dogma of perpetual virginity. The Church doesn’t hold a position on whether the “brothers” of Jesus were cousins or stepbrothers. We are able to believe in either scenario.

 

[Church_Militant]

SPOKENWORD:

You see my answers are not off base,its your understanding that is the problem. You might want to pray for some revelation truth.You only can have Gods truth if you allow His Word to enter in. You have to know whats Gods Word is.? Example]. There is this bank giving away 100 dollar bills.This information is not known to you so it has no effect on you. Now you hear about this bank and you go get the 100 bill,and you recieve it. Gods Word is the same. If you dont know Gods Word you do not know it exists. Only when you recieve it can you understand it and live it. God Bless.

Nooooo, your answers are off base…& based upon the wisdom of some man who rejected the authority of His church 500 years ago.
Show me that any of the early church fathers believed any of this stuff. If Ignatius of Antioch believed it & had written it down (Like he did the fact that the Christian church was called Catholic even before his day) then I might consider it…You base all you say on some concept of personal revelation, which is very dangerous because it could even be of demonic inspiration. the fact that it does not line up with historic Christainity also make its source suspect.

 

[Exporter]

Here is the bottom line. When Joseph married Mary Joseph was elderly. He had several children by his then dead wife.

Joseph was a widower who had several children by his first wife when he married Mary!

The ones called brothers in the Bible were “STEPBROTHERS”.