Which Homosexuals Are "Incurable"?

[CJeplin]

My oldest brother is gay. Everyone knows this. Though the family never speaks of it directly and tends to treat it as the proverbial “elephant in the room” whenever there are gatherings, it has led me to wonder about some of the things the Church teaches and how we should interpret these with regard to direct dealings with my brother.

While I totally understand and uphold the Church’s views that there is no moral justification for homosexual acts, that due to their being intrinsically disordered can in no way be approved of, the question I have is that the Church also mentions that there is a distinction to be drawn between most who engage in homosexual practices and those who are “incurable.” According to the Declaration on Certain Questions Concerning Sexual Ethics some homosexuals are such due to innate instinct or pathology as the governing factor.

While even in these situations the Church teaches that these can never be approved of or be morally justified, I wonder if such are considered equally condemned since they are the result of a pathology. And if it is due to a pathology how can it still be immoral? What other cases other than homosexuality can I use to show that a pathological basis can call for no moral justification for others? Any thoughts?

The other question is how can one decipher if a pathology is involved, how the Church has or determines such things, and how this can help us either excuse or accuse (so to speak) persons like my brother (or used by my brother himself in dealing with his own sexuality)? Some are bound to be very judgmental towards him in our family, but if no one speaks up about it how can we realize how far we can and should help, if at all?

 

[awsiukiewicz]

I’m just someone in the crowd here…but it seems that the ‘incurable’ aspect is somewhat irrelevent…fact is, as I understand it…we are called to be chaste…unless married, which we define as being in a Sacramental marriage one man and one woman…we are called to live chaste lives otherwise…so, regardless of your brother’s preference for gender or, same sex attraction…he should or, rathter could chose to live a chaste life…I’m certain that there are individuals on this site that could articulate the matter with a great deal more finese…but…plus, incurable suggests that homosexuality is a disease…that could or could not be cured…you might get some arguments here…just FYI, up until the 70’s …the DSM (diagnostic manual) used by the health care profession…DID in fact consider homosexuality a disease…the revised the manaul with the DSM3R…go figure…eh…? I mention, anecdotaly, I personally put no stock whatsoever in the APA (American Psych. Association), or the AMA in much of the positions regarding a great deal of what we consider moral…I know there are a group of Catholics who have same sex attraction but chose to live chaste lives…I saw a group on EWTN…and really admire these people I think they are a group that is called “Courage” Good luck and God Bless

 

[Loyal_J]

With prayer nothing is incurable. My health teacher was addicted to cigarettes and he offered up not smoking for lent. For some reason it was easy. Since then he hasn’t had a problem with smoking. It was God.

 

[bzkoss236]

Same-sex attraction is not the sin here. While it is unnatural in the sense that it goes against the natural function for gender, it is not a sin. The sin of homosexuality rests in the actions of a homosexual nature. Just as a person who is born with a disorder that makes him or her seek to hurt themselves or others, it does not mean that it is moral to allow them to do so. Homosexual actions can cause one to hurt themselves and others in a variety of ways. No matter the source of the same-sex attraction, the actions are always sinful. The Church teaches that those with same-sex attraction are called to a life of chastity, just as those heterosexuals are. And since it is impossible in the sight of God to have a homosexual marriage (it is oxymoronic considering what function marriage plays socially and religiously), they cannot be married to have sex within marriage. So, just as it is sinful for heterosexuals to have sex outside of marriage, it is also so with those with same-sex attraction.

Hope this helps.

 

[Loyal_J]

I remember reading in the council of trent that we do what we can and ask for God’s grace to help with the rest and he will make it so we do it. But we are allowed to resist. Desires and emotions can make it hard not to resist but it’s possible.

Bible verse: “No trial has come to you but what is human. God is faithful and will not let you be tried beyond your strength; but with the trial he will also provide a way out, so that you may be able to bear it.” 1 Corinthians Chapter 10 verse 13

 

[dshix]

My oldest brother is gay. Everyone knows this. Though the family never speaks of it directly and tends to treat it as the proverbial “elephant in the room” whenever there are gatherings, it has led me to wonder about some of the things the Church teaches and how we should interpret these with regard to direct dealings with my brother.

While I totally understand and uphold the Church’s views that there is no moral justification for homosexual acts, that due to their being intrinsically disordered can in no way be approved of, the question I have is that the Church also mentions that there is a distinction to be drawn between most who engage in homosexual practices and those who are “incurable.” According to the Declaration on Certain Questions Concerning Sexual Ethics some homosexuals are such due to innate instinct or pathology as the governing factor.

While even in these situations the Church teaches that these can never be approved of or be morally justified, I wonder if such are considered equally condemned since they are the result of a pathology. And if it is due to a pathology how can it still be immoral? What other cases other than homosexuality can I use to show that a pathological basis can call for no moral justification for others? Any thoughts?

The other question is how can one decipher if a pathology is involved, how the Church has or determines such things, and how this can help us either excuse or accuse (so to speak) persons like my brother (or used by my brother himself in dealing with his own sexuality)? Some are bound to be very judgmental towards him in our family, but if no one speaks up about it how can we realize how far we can and should help, if at all?

To ask if homosexuality is “curable” suggests that it is a disease, which it is not.

Rather, homosexuality is a behavior, and as with all habitual behaviors it can be very difficult to uproot. As with any habit, it takes dedicated effort and trouble to get rid of it. With sexual actions, in particular, it is very hard to get rid of because it has such a strong appeal to the human brain.

It is not impossible for your brother to become straight again; it will just take effort on HIS part to make it happen, and prayer on your part to help him do it.

 

[Snowball7]

It’s his cross to bear. God will help him overcome it and
he can have a happy life without it but not before first
going through pain. He must have a Fear of God in him.
This is why it’s not a good idea to coddle homosexuals
into thinking that what they are doing is ok. They must fear
God’s wrath. Sure, some may love Christ enough to just stop,
but usually it’s fear that motivates them to stop.
The homosexual man should realize that every time he gratifies
his fleshly appetites in this way, he is driving a wedge between
his soul and God. He is literally killing Christ in his own body.
Every time he abuses his God-made, procreative genitals that way,
however so, he is performing that same act upon Jesus Himself
because God became Man and resides in men and women.
For lesbians, they are defiling the Holy Mother, who was a woman.
There is no hiding. There are no secrets. Thy Will be Done has only
one true meaning. The flesh is at war with the spirit. Man is a
dichotomous being of both flesh and spirit. The two natures must be
aligned to serve only One Master. Who is their Master ? Their
Master is He whose bidding they do.
Others have different crosses to bear if they desire Reconciliation.
Such as alcoholism, addiction, pride, any of the major temptations
and principalities of the Devil who seeks to separate men and women
from their true Father, the one in whose likeness they are created.
It helps to separate your self from your body. As Blake wrote,
“This life’s dim windows of the soul Distorts the heavens from pole to pole
And leads you to believe a lie / When you see with, not through, the eye.”
The body is rented, not owned by us. We can command it, but
must not let it command our souls to perdition.
It’s contradictory for people to believe that they
can own their own bodies. Sure, they can, but then their souls will
follow the body to its corporeal resting place. Wages of Sin = Death.
Dust to Dust. Is that a Master worth following ?
Employ the body only for that which is in accordance and harmony
with the desires of the Soul. If the Soul desires grace, the body
must be graceful. If the Soul wishes Heaven, it cannot allow the body
to take it to Hell instead.

 

[chaldobyzantine]

It is not impossible for your brother to become straight again; it will just take effort on HIS part to make it happen, and prayer on your part to help him do it.

Just to make it clear, it is totally impossible he’ll become straight. Prayer cannot change biology. Accept him for who he is and openly discuss your lives with each other as siblings should.

God bless.

 

[dshix]

Just to make it clear, it is totally impossible he’ll become straight. Prayer cannot change biology. Accept him for who he is and openly discuss your lives with each other as siblings should.

God bless.

Not true. Not true in the least. There is no such thing as a “homosexual person” in the sense that their body itself is homosexual. Biology says that your brother is a man, and should be married to a woman if he partakes in any sexual activity at all.

If you accept, in his presence, that he cannot change, you are affirming his sin. You must love him and accept who he is as a person, but not as a homosexual. Always be attempting to convert him.

 

[bevsue]

Basic Church teaching boils down to always hate the sin - always love the sinner. It’s that simple. Catholics and Christians have not done this well - probably because we are fallen. Usually it is embrace everything to be loving, or condemn everything to show we don’t tolerate evil. Loving the person, and hating their actions isn’t easy for us. But it is possible to do. Think of all the other sins folks we love commit, and it doesn’t affect our love for them. It is the same here. We pray for those we love to be able to resist whatever sins they face, because sin is evil, but we love them and pray for them even when they are in sin.

Second there is a difference, as some have mentioned between the attraction, and acting on it. Someone may have an attraction toward the same sex, (or the opposite sex) and remain chaste, as we are called to be outside of marriage. The attraction is not sinful, it is nuturing it purposefully and acting upon it that is - either homosexually or heterosexually outside of a traditional marriage.

Lastly about “cure”. If by cure is meant a change in sexual orientation, yes, such a thing is possible and I know of at least three people - both sexes - where that has occurred and remained so. None of them went through a course of treatment for this, but they did seek God, and prayer and (name removed by moderator)ut from others. It was a process of time, not a flash change, and all three are married with families now and have been for a long time. I also know folks who did not change their orientation but ARE living chaste lives. It can be done, and even tho difficult at times, these folks can and do live happy lives. The world has sold us a bill of goods that everyone deserves and needs an active sex life to be happy. No, everyone needs God and purpose to be happy. That is reality. The group within the Catholic church for support for those who are gay and living chaste lives in accordance with the Church teaching is called COURAGE as someone mentioned earlier.

I’ll be praying for your brother.

 

[John_Martin]

My oldest brother is gay. Everyone knows this. Though the family never speaks of it directly and tends to treat it as the proverbial “elephant in the room” whenever there are gatherings, it has led me to wonder about some of the things the Church teaches and how we should interpret these with regard to direct dealings with my brother.
…
While even in these situations the Church teaches that these can never be approved of or be morally justified, I wonder if such are considered equally condemned since they are the result of a pathology. And if it is due to a pathology how can it still be immoral? What other cases other than homosexuality can I use to show that a pathological basis can call for no moral justification for others? Any thoughts?

The strange thing, or great thing, about human beings is that we “Know”, understand, and desire things based not only on physical or sensitive appetite, but we also desire things based on what we understand as true. We want to participate in what we understand as true. Thus we find ourselves wanting to participate in God, participate in Jesus, participate in the Church he built. We know it is true in our understanding, and we want it to be the objective reality of our physical activity and being.

Some people are satisfied to let physical appetite (appetite or desires that provide sensual satisfaction) be the End of living, the meaning of living. Others direct their behavior according to what they know / understand as true, and so they may (or may not) contradict their physical appetite. Others know / understand something revealed from outside about themselves as truth and want to participate in that (live out the objective reality of what they know in their intellect), and so they too will in many cases contradict what their physical appetite and their self reasoned understanding would want.

The best bet for anyone is to introduce them (by your own life and speech) to the God of revelation, to Jesus, to his body the Church, to you as a member of his body. The Holy Spirit is real and grants understanding as he wills to those who hear. And where there is revealed understanding, there grows love for what is understood. And where there is love for what is understood there is thinking (reason) about what it means and how to participate in it. And where there is will to participate, there is choice to particpate. And that is when the battle begins of contradicting what feels right.

So be happy, joyful, and knowledgeable about being Catholic - it is a great and delightful thing to be with Jesus and participate in him. Be that to your brother, delighted to be Catholic.

John Martin

 

[kozlosap]

To ask if homosexuality is “curable” suggests that it is a disease, which it is not.

Rather, homosexuality is a behavior, and as with all habitual behaviors it can be very difficult to uproot. As with any habit, it takes dedicated effort and trouble to get rid of it. With sexual actions, in particular, it is very hard to get rid of because it has such a strong appeal to the human brain.

It is not impossible for your brother to become straight again; it will just take effort on HIS part to make it happen, and prayer on your part to help him do it.

That is your opinion and not held by most educated people (most especially physicians).

 

[dshix]

That is your opinion and not held by most educated people (most especially physicians).

I smell it. That one came out of a hat. :irish2:

Heh. So you think that homosexuals are a disease? You think it’s incurable? Look at history, please.

 

[chaldobyzantine]

I smell it. That came out of a hat. :irish2:

Heh. So you think that homosexuals are a disease? You think it’s incurable? Look at history, please.

You must not know any openly gay or lesbian friends or family members. Well let me introduce myself, a gay Catholic living in Michigan. I can assure you that just as I am ethnically Chaldean, my sexual orientation is gay.

Sexual orientation is definitely biological, assuming you have experienced sexual attraction to the opposite sex, I have that same attraction to the same sex and none towards the opposite. Some people may be attracted to both, some to neither. It is unacceptable to think one can just change their orientation as God has made them is completely unfounded, so please accept the reality that sexual orientation is as unchangeable as race.

God bless.

 

[dshix]

**You must not know any openly gay or lesbian friends or family members. **Well let me introduce myself, a gay Catholic living in Michigan. I can assure you that just as I am ethnically Chaldean, my sexual orientation is gay.

I actually do.

Sexual orientation is definitely biological, assuming you have experienced sexual attraction to the opposite sex, I have that same attraction to the same sex and none towards the opposite. Some people may be attracted to both, some to neither.

My friend,
I really can’t argue this with you. I really can’t.

In order for you to understand, you need to understand science. Science is on my side here, because there is definitely not such a thing as a “homosexual” bodytype.

The only thing you can claim exists, which I agree with, is the presence of homosexual tendencies, impulses, temptations, or inclinations. These do exist, and they are a great challenge for the person who bears them.

If you still disagree, look up what “biological” means, and you’ll understand.

Inclinations are not bodily realities. They are just inclinations. Just because you feel an attraction to the same sex doesn’t mean that your genitalia are somehow different from everybody else.

It is unacceptable to think one can just change their orientation as God has made them is completely unfounded, so please accept the reality that sexual orientation is as unchangeable as race.

False. If you prove that, I will readily believe it, but I know it is false because I have seen many studies to the contrary, and in addition, I know personal family members who have grown up thinking they were “homosexual” and then chose to change their lifestyle and are now upstanding people.

If you decide you can’t change yourself, you never will, and that is the road of sin.

 

[mitex]

The lack of charitable responses on here is a disappointment as usual.

One person has said it’s all a choice. Another has said homosexuals don’t exist. Another has called it an addiction (how could it be? I’ve always been celibate and still have a homosexual orientation).

As a celibate homosexual I can assure you the Catholic Church distinguishes between thoughts and actions. Only homosexual acts are sinful. A homosexual orientation (or “tendency” as Church language would call it) is not sinful although it is “objectively disordered.” However it is not a pathology because the Church views a person with a homosexual orientation as not disordered (it’s pretty confusing at times).

Now onto change. Some will claim homosexuality can be treated and “cured.” Personally I spent two years in so called “ex-gay” therapy and my orientation only got stronger and I was really hurt. Advocates of ex-gay therapy like Joseph Nicolsi will scream at the top of their lungs that no one ever gets hurt. But I can testify there are those like me who have been hurt by it. Other people may have a more positive experience.

I’m not going to say “changing sexuality” is impossible or is possible. I can only say it didn’t work for me and that I was hurt by the experience.

Celibacy (or as Catholics call it “chastity”) is fair by an easier option (and if I had my way if would be the only option available).

I actually do.

If you decide you can’t change yourself, you never will, and that is the road of sin.

You know I’m a celibate homosexual. I never changed my sexual orientation.

 

[mitex]

I actually do.

If you decide you can’t change yourself, you never will, and that is the road of sin.

You know I’m a celibate homosexual. Ever here of people like me? I never changed my sexual orientation.

 

[John_Martin]

You must not know any openly gay or lesbian friends or family members. Well let me introduce myself, a gay Catholic living in Michigan. I can assure you that just as I am ethnically Chaldean, my sexual orientation is gay.

Sexual orientation is definitely biological, assuming you have experienced sexual attraction to the opposite sex, I have that same attraction to the same sex and none towards the opposite. Some people may be attracted to both, some to neither. It is unacceptable to think one can just change their orientation as God has made them is completely unfounded, so please accept the reality that sexual orientation is as unchangeable as race.

God bless.

Yes, attraction is biological, corporeal, appetitive, but our Souls, our intellect, what we know, what we will, is non-corporeal, is not biological. That is what is so delightful about being human; we are not bound to satisfaction of appetite without thought. We know and we choose. We choose to eat a wafer and sip wine, knowing something that others cannot see (and so they do not choose the wafer and sip of wine). The physical appetite goes hungry there, but the soul lifts its heart to the Lord our God.

John Martin

 

[acadiANNA]

I believe that any homosexual who loves God and puts that love above all else in life can live a chaste life. As an earlier poster said, it is his cross to bear. My prayer is that he will find strength to carry this cross until death. That families and friends will accept and support him in this challenge. He must also know that God loves him as if there were no other. We are to conduct ourselves as God commands. From first grade we learn that we are on this earth to know, love, and serve God and be happy with Him in heaven. Each of us has a different path in our journey to holiness. It would be good to know when we draw our last breath that we will see the face of God, Jesus, Mary, Joseph, the angels and saints.

 

[dshix]

The lack of charitable responses on here is a disappointment as usual.

Actually, I’ve been very polite and careful in the way I word things, not personally insulting anyone, but stating the cold hard truth…

You know I’m a celibate homosexual. I never changed my sexual orientation.

Actually I didn’t know that, nor did I even direct any of my posts towards you. Please don’t jump to conclusions.