Which is better for society: Capitalism or Communism?

[Kaninchen]

Sorry, but you are not even considering the economics of my point. My point was not simply the size, for the sake of it. Ever heard the phrase: “The bigger they are, the harder they fall?” The same goes for economics, specifically of entitlements.

I’m not considering your ‘economics’, that’s perfectly true.

 

[Peccavi]

In this discussion there is a recurring argument from the supporters of capitalism about national size determining economic forms of organisation. Nowhere does anyone question the idea of the nation-state itself. In Europe, the European Union is making possible a return to pre-nation state regionalism, creating smaller economies within a continental support system. This return to more manageable communities could well provide a new model of economic and social cohesion.
The failure of Soviet communism under Lenin and other Soviet leaders was to continue the imperialist policies of the Tsarist Russian State. The USSR was never ‘communist’ in the Marxist sense, just as the USA has never been (at least not to most Europeans) the beacon of freedom it likes to convince itself it is. We are all prisoners of ideologies that fail to live up to the early Christian message.

 

[CWBetts]

The United States not a beacon of freedom? Our leaders here are not predetermined by circumstances of birth. When there are controversies in electionswe don’t see tanks in the streets. Everyone is fully included in the political process. Last time I checked, the British monarch is still forbidden from being or marrying a Catholic. In the US, people can start with nothing and become millionaires (I know one who will have accomlished this by next year). We have NEVER declared someone a traitor exclusively because of their religion. Do we have problems, and have we had them in the past? Yes. We are on a questof self-improvement. We are, and remain the freest country in the world. Sorry if you can’t give a bunch of upstart colonials credit where it is due.

 

[Kaninchen]

The United States not a beacon of freedom? Our leaders here are not predetermined by circumstances of birth. When there are controversies in electionswe don’t see tanks in the streets. Everyone is fully included in the political process. Last time I checked, the British monarch is still forbidden from being or marrying a Catholic. In the US, people can start with nothing and become millionaires (I know one who will have accomlished this by next year). We have NEVER declared someone a traitor exclusively because of their religion. Do we have problems, and have we had them in the past? Yes. We are on a questof self-improvement. We are, and remain the freest country in the world. Sorry if you can’t give a bunch of upstart colonials credit where it is due.

To quote Burns: “Oh wad some power the giftie gie us To see oursel’s as others see us!”

 

[neat62]

I’m not considering your ‘economics’, that’s perfectly true.

Ok, whatever. Good luck.

 

[neat62]

Kaninchen;

To quote Burns: “Oh wad some power the giftie gie us To see oursel’s as others see us!”

You should just move then if you hate it here so much. Seriously, it sounds like you would like it better in some other country. You are FREE to leave.

 

[neat62]

Peccavi;

The failure of Soviet communism under Lenin and other Soviet leaders was to continue the imperialist policies of the Tsarist Russian State.

And what about China? What’s with their embrace of Capitalism? Their “imperialism” was nothing compared to the USSR’s,and yet they chose to pick up some forms of Capitialism in order to sustain billon people.

The USSR was never ‘communist’ in the Marxist sense,

Sure it was. That was how it had to have been done in order for it to last as long as it did. Nobody wanted to stand in line for a roll of toilet paper.

just as the USA has never been (at least not to most Europeans) the beacon of freedom it likes to convince itself it is.

Perhaps. But that is because our version of freedom was political freedom, primarily. We relied on society to manage itself without big government to dictate to us. That, is freedom, to us. Anything else is anarchy, and authoritarian.

 

[Kaninchen]

Kaninchen;

You should just move then if you hate it here so much. Seriously, it sounds like you would like it better in some other country. You are FREE to leave.

That’s very nice of you, I’m sure, but while I’ve lived in the US and have a lot of family in the US, I’m a European. I was born in Europe, I live in Europe. While I might be better in some other country (Italy) than the one I currently live in (the UK), I’m really quite happy apart from the weather.

 

[neat62]

Kaninchen;

That’s very nice of you, I’m sure, but while I’ve lived in the US and have a lot of family in the US, I’m a European. I was born in Europe, I live in Europe. While I might be better in some other country (Italy) than the one I currently live in (the UK), I’m really quite happy apart from the weather.

Well that’s good. You would absolutely hate it here. We do not have the kind of socialism that you would like.

 

[Kaninchen]

Kaninchen;

Well that’s good. You would absolutely hate it here. We do not have the kind of socialism that you would like.

Actually, I rather liked living in the US the two times we lived there.

Had you bothered to read what I’d written, you might have noticed that I had been talking about being a Thatcher supporter when I was younger but I was criticizing the ‘there is no such thing as society’ aspect that I embraced when younger - I think we may have paid for it in a number of disturbing ways that European conservatives, in general, avoided.

I was a real Party girl, by the way - an anti-socialist activist in a world where there were real communists and real socialists - not the phantoms of American Conservative imaginations.

So, while you might have good ranting fun talking about the ‘kind of socialism that’ I ‘would like’, it’s just ranting. The thing about being a European conservative, you see, was that being up against real communists and socialists, we did have to know what the words meant - you don’t.

You don’t know the language.

 

[RobertLGarrett]

The European/American debate is tiresome. If you travel enough, you come to realize there is good and bad in just about every system.

Pure laissez faire capitalism at all levels of government would not be good. “Pure” communism - the idealistic dream world where no government is needed and everyone works for the common good - is never going to happen. Since the failed attempts at communism also included oppression and restriction of religion, it certainly wasn’t “better for society.”

So, overall, the answer to the OP’s question is simple - Capitalism is better for society.

That said, the Church is in favor of sensible controls on capitalism to preserve the dignity of man. The Church is clearly not in favor of communism and the principle of subsidiarity basically recommends very limited socialism at the national and state levels. I would say that the US and European countries all fail in this respect.

 

[ninaq4]

If we lived in the same, or vaguely similar, universes, if we spoke the same, or even vaguely similar, languages, it might be worth discussing the topic.

As it stands, no, it’s not worth bothering. It’s not as if it matters in any sense.

Yea…that’s a nice copout…apparently the scientoligists are correct in their belief that there are some here from another planet who are “superior” beings…speaking their own language…sigh…



Again, just tells me you can’t actually refute what I stated…end of debate.

 

[ninaq4]

Actually, I rather liked living in the US the two times we lived there.

Had you bothered to read what I’d written, you might have noticed that I had been talking about being a Thatcher supporter when I was younger but I was criticizing the ‘there is no such thing as society’ aspect that I embraced when younger - I think we may have paid for it in a number of disturbing ways that European conservatives, in general, avoided.

I was a real Party girl, by the way - an anti-socialist activist in a world where there were real communists and real socialists - not the phantoms of American Conservative imaginations.

So, while you might have good ranting fun talking about the ‘kind of socialism that’ I ‘would like’, it’s just ranting. The thing about being a European conservative, you see, was that being up against real communists and socialists, we did have to know what the words meant - you don’t.

You don’t know the language.

Oh I see…you don’t live here in the US…you just have an opinion that we should become more like the nation you do live in…hmm…where is that anyway?

And can you tell me…how many millions of people are trying to get into your nation each year? Going as far as risking their lives in ridiculous car boats…crossing dry deserts with no water…hiding under the seats of their cars…etc., etc.

 

[RobertLGarrett]

Oh I see…you don’t live here in the US…you just have an opinion that we should become more like the nation you do live in…hmm…where is that anyway?

And can you tell me…how many millions of people are trying to get into your nation each year? Going as far as risking their lives in ridiculous car boats…crossing dry deserts with no water…hiding under the seats of their cars…etc., etc.

To be fair, there are plenty of people immigrating to the UK.
statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?id=260

The net migration (100s of 1000s) is not as large as ours, but it is still significant, considering the size of the country.

And, yes, they do have issues with illegal immigration, but I find it pretty funny that this article complains about the “systematic incompetance” of the UK’s Security Industry Authority for the couple of thousand who slipped through the cracks.
guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/nov/14/immigrationpolicy

 

[neat62]

Kaninchen;

Actually, I rather liked living in the US the two times we lived there.

Had you bothered to read what I’d written, you might have noticed that I had been talking about being a Thatcher supporter when I was younger but I was criticizing the ‘there is no such thing as society’ aspect that I embraced when younger - I think we may have paid for it in a number of disturbing ways that European conservatives, in general, avoided.

I was a real Party girl, by the way - an anti-socialist activist in a world where there were real communists and real socialists - not the phantoms of American Conservative imaginations.

So, while you might have good ranting fun talking about the ‘kind of socialism that’ I ‘would like’, it’s just ranting. The thing about being a European conservative, you see, was that being up against real communists and socialists, we did have to know what the words meant - you don’t.

You don’t know the language.

Spare me. I read what you wrote, and how you supported Thtcher when you were young but not so much today. I asked you to clarify what you are saying, because you are not direct and take positions all over the place. You are correct, I do not know your language. I’m not really sure who does.

 

[grampben]

You should just move then if you hate it here so much. Seriously, it sounds like you would like it better in some other country. You are FREE to leave.

What good comes from a statement like this?

Well that’s good. You would absolutely hate it here. We do not have the kind of socialism that you would like.

Or this.

That, is freedom, to us. Anything else is anarchy, and authoritarian.

You do realise that anarchism and authoritarianism are two polar opposite ideologies? Oh, but I suppose us socialist Europeans are too ignorant to correct you, oh wise one.

 

[grampben]

So, while you might have good ranting fun talking about the ‘kind of socialism that’ I ‘would like’, it’s just ranting. The thing about being a European conservative, you see, was that being up against real communists and socialists, we did have to know what the words meant - you don’t.

You don’t know the language.

So true, especially with people believing it when Hannity (or even some disgruntled CAF posters ) tells them Obama is a socialist.
It’s far more offensive when people from the USA call Europe socialist.

Culturally, the USA and Europe, even the UK are totally different.

 

[Kaninchen]

So true, especially with people believing it when Hannity (or even some disgruntled CAF posters ) tells them Obama is a socialist.
It’s far more offensive when people from the USA call Europe socialist.

Culturally, the USA and Europe, even the UK are totally different.

Orwell talking about Newspeak (1984, of course):

The purpose of Newspeak was not only to provide a medium of expression for the world-view and mental habits proper to the devotees of Ingsoc, but to make all other modes of thought impossible. It was intended that when Newspeak had been adopted once and for all and Oldspeak forgotten, a heretical thought – that is, a thought diverging from the principles of Ingsoc – should be literally unthinkable, at least so far as thought is dependent on words.

This is what is happening here - ‘socialism’ (or whatever) is divorced from it’s ‘Oldspeak’ meanings and given a meaning that is an expression of the needs of a particular political outlook. Now it just means ‘all that is considered by all right-thinking people as Un-American and, by definition, very, very naughty’. So, if you express a thought that might be vaguely considered as falling into ‘all that is considered by all right-thinking people as Un-American and, by definition, very, very naughty’, one is a socialist.

Claiming that the word ‘socialist’ has another meaning, or set of meanings, merely means that one has expressed a thought that might be vaguely considered as falling into ‘all that is considered by all right-thinking people as Un-American and, by definition, very, very naughty’, and one is obviously a socialist.

As for Newhistory and Sweden . . . . .

All very ‘Alice nel paese delle meraviglie’, as they say in Italy - but my avatar is a white rabbit, after all.

 

[Valke2]

Regulated capitalism.

 

[neat62]

grampben;

You do realise that anarchism and authoritarianism are two polar opposite ideologies?

Of course I do.

Oh, but I suppose us socialist Europeans are too ignorant to correct you, oh wise one.

There is nothing to correct. You should try to reinterpret what I said.