Which is better for society: Capitalism or Communism?

[ribozyme]

I interpret “giving it to the poor” a bit different than others. In that I feel it is possible for rich people to use their wealth for the good of the community and help more poor than if they gave it away. Of course there are a few different type of rich people. Those who build buisnesses and earn money through management and coordination of others are different from those who work hard and have proven themselves in a way that they get large salaries. And they are different from those who manipulate or take advantage of others to get something for nothing, I would throw day traders and many politicians into this group. When people think of the rich they think of this group and that is who I think is referenced in this scripture. I don’t think the same applies to the other two groups who contribute to society as much as they get in return.

What about certain hedge fund managers (e.g. James Simons (he is a quant; he uses computer algorithms to trade and his programs hold positions for minutes,) George Soros (no need to explain him, he speculates on currencies), John Paulson (made billions by buying credit default swaps and short-selling the BBB tranches of subprime securities)). What about hedge fund managers that use convertible arbitrage, merger arbitrage, and fixed-income arbitrage who try to get something for nothing without taking significant risk. Convertible arbitrage and fixed-income arbitrage a lot of money this year largely due to lack of liquidity in the markets they trade in, but they “arbitrage” that is they try to get something for nothing. Now could you tell me how Simons and Paulson created something of value.

I’ll also be interested on your thoughts on George Soros and his profits on currency speculation. When he (actually Stanley Druckenmiller) bet against the baht, he was merely a trader in the forex market.

 

[estesbob]

What about certain hedge fund managers (e.g. James Simons (he is a quant; he uses computer algorithms to trade and his programs hold positions for minutes,) George Soros (no need to explain him, he speculates on currencies), John Paulson (made billions by buying credit default swaps and short-selling the BBB tranches of subprime securities)). What about hedge fund managers that use convertible arbitrage, merger arbitrage, and fixed-income arbitrage who try to get something for nothing without taking significant risk. Convertible arbitrage and fixed-income arbitrage a lot of money this year largely due to lack of liquidity in the markets they trade in, but they “arbitrage” that is they try to get something for nothing. Now could you tell me how Simons and Paulson created something of value.

Soros Bankrupts counties puting 10s of thousands in abject poverty and then uses the money to undermine democracy in America. That and his admited involvement in helping send Jews to death camps does not, in my book, make him one to be admired regardless of how much money he gives to charity

 

[royal_archer]

What about certain hedge fund managers (e.g. James Simons (he is a quant; he uses computer algorithms to trade and his programs hold positions for minutes,) George Soros (no need to explain him, he speculates on currencies), John Paulson (made billions by buying credit default swaps and short-selling the BBB tranches of subprime securities)). What about hedge fund managers that use convertible arbitrage, merger arbitrage, and fixed-income arbitrage who try to get something for nothing without taking significant risk. Convertible arbitrage and fixed-income arbitrage a lot of money this year largely due to lack of liquidity in the markets they trade in, but they “arbitrage” that is they try to get something for nothing. Now could you tell me how Simons and Paulson created something of value.

I’ll also be interested on your thoughts on George Soros and his profits on currency speculation. When he (actually Stanley Druckenmiller) bet against the baht, he was merely a trader in the forex market.

They all sound like leaches trying to get something for nothing.

 

[ProVobis]

The USA has always been a capitalist stronghold. America seems to despise communism and socialism.

Really? Then why has the USA decided that in its best interests it needs to trade with foreign communists, socialists, fascists, dictators, and terrorists? The USA has finally put themselves in a position where its survival depends on foreign lenders because its population has seen it more fit to get into debt than paying off its debt. The USA is definitely not in the Ayn Rand type of capitalism stronghold as it thinks it can print all the capitalism it thinks it needs, not earn it.

 

[sarah_anne_628]

I wanted to invite people to our house for dinner with us. But to be honnest, I didn’t know who to invite or where to start. (also my wife had issues with inviting people in but that would be a whole other thread…) Perhaps our churches/priests should be more active in helping the parrish know who needs what help. I understand the embarasment factor but I am sure it would be ok for a priest to call other parishoners to ask for their help.

My husband and I had a similar situation…but this was before we were Catholic. My husband is a soldier and we figured we weren’t the only ones with family too far away to visit for Thanksgiving. We were sick of going to Denny’s on the holidays (it’s just me and him) and I wanted to cook for people. So we set out to find single soldiers or other families who would be going it alone and I wanted to cook for everybody. We couldn’t find a single person to come over (somebody must have let the word slip about my cooking…lol), so we ended up at Cracker Barrel.

I KNOW there are poor, lonely people on this Army base. 2/3 of the base are just now returning from deployment…meaning they were NOT here last year on the Holidays. But where are they!!! How do you find them?

I think that you are correct. The Church needs to figure out a way to hook the needy up with people who WANT to help but just don’t trust giving the government their hard earned money.

For instance…at a church we used to attend, the preacher found out about a family who had nothing…he made an announcement from the pulpit about what they needed (everything) and by the end of the week, the congregation had what they needed.

 

[Peccavi]

Jesus (In Mark’s Gospel) tells the rich man who says he has kept all God’s commandments In one thing he is still failing - Go home, Jesus says, and sell ALL that belongs to you and give it to the poor. Store up treasure in heaven NOT on this earth…THEN come back and follow me… Here there is no equivocation, no exceptions…Jesus gives us a choice wealth now or wealth later in heaven (although it is clearly a different kind of wealth he has in mind).
We cannot hedge fund around around the EXPLICIT words of Christ in the gospels (although lots of Christian’s have been doing just that for centuries). You cannot follow me, Jesus says, until and unless you share all you have with the poor…implicit in the second great commandment
Love your neighbour as yourself.
I can find no exceptions in the Gospel to this commandment.

 

[Holly3278]

Well, I can assure you of one thing. Communism is not the answer. Socialism is a good thing mixed with capitalism. I vote Republican. I do that because I feel that the Republican Party’s moral values more closely match my own. I feel that a person should vote based upon moral values. For a good Catholic guide to voting, see the Catholic Answers Action Voters Guide For Serious Catholics which is here:

caaction.com/pdf/Voters-Guide-Catholic-English-1p.pdf

NOTE: This is a PDF file and requires a PDF reader to look at the file. You can download a free reader such as Adobe Acrobat Reader.

Also, aren’t you a little late in asking this question?

 

[estesbob]

Jesus (In Mark’s Gospel) tells the rich man who says he has kept all God’s commandments In one thing he is still failing - Go home, Jesus says, and sell ALL that belongs to you and give it to the poor. Store up treasure in heaven NOT on this earth…THEN come back and follow me… Here there is no equivocation, no exceptions…Jesus gives us a choice wealth now or wealth later in heaven (although it is clearly a different kind of wealth he has in mind).
We cannot hedge fund around around the EXPLICIT words of Christ in the gospels (although lots of Christian’s have been doing just that for centuries). You cannot follow me, Jesus says, until and unless you share all you have with the poor…implicit in the second great commandment
Love your neighbour as yourself.
I can find no exceptions in the Gospel to this commandment.

Owning a computer?

 

[Dicerning]

This is why communes have been very successful. The Shakers are a ‘communist’ society…as are the Amish. They have managed to endure longer than Communist Regimes.

.

I don’t know about the Shakers but I grew up around the Amish. They are NOT communist. They don’t live in Communes and they don’t share their goods or land.

Theses Amish are strict order but they use our hospitals when they are sick, they use our public funding for their country Schools and their womer take the horses and buggies to town on Saturday to sell “home-made” brownies in the lobby of wal-mart (with permission of course) for Cold hard Cash.

I have even seen a horse and buggy at the drive up at McDonalds. WHen my wife was a child she broke her leg and spent a few days in the hospital. Her roomate was a little Amish Girl.

 

[royal_archer]

Jesus (In Mark’s Gospel) tells the rich man who says he has kept all God’s commandments In one thing he is still failing - Go home, Jesus says, and sell ALL that belongs to you and give it to the poor. Store up treasure in heaven NOT on this earth…THEN come back and follow me… Here there is no equivocation, no exceptions…Jesus gives us a choice wealth now or wealth later in heaven (although it is clearly a different kind of wealth he has in mind).
We cannot hedge fund around around the EXPLICIT words of Christ in the gospels (although lots of Christian’s have been doing just that for centuries). You cannot follow me, Jesus says, until and unless you share all you have with the poor…implicit in the second great commandment
Love your neighbour as yourself.
I can find no exceptions in the Gospel to this commandment.

Being middle class and reading this I feel I have a duty to do what I can but I do not see license in this to go and sieze the wealth of rich to give it to the poor.

 

[royal_archer]

I don’t know about the Shakers but I grew up around the Amish. They are NOT communist. They don’t live in Communes and they don’t share their goods or land.

Theses Amish are strict order but they use our hospitals when they are sick, they use our public funding for their country Schools and their womer take the horses and buggies to town on Saturday to sell “home-made” brownies in the lobby of wal-mart (with permission of course) for Cold hard Cash.

I have even seen a horse and buggy at the drive up at McDonalds. WHen my wife was a child she broke her leg and spent a few days in the hospital. Her roomate was a little Amish Girl.

I think most of us have been complementary of the Amish in the comunity aspects of their society such as barn raising where all members of the community contribute labor. The great part of what they do is that they do it with out a controlling central government.

 

[universalist]

Maybe if we as a nation would show as much interest in creating livable wage jobs,feeding the hungry,free health insurance,etc as we do in building up our war machine we would have money for the good of the poor and working class,the money spent on illegal wars and killing machinery is sickening to me as an American and Christian. In Chrst

 

[estesbob]

Maybe if we as a nation would show as much interest in creating livable wage jobs,feeding the hungry,free health insurance,etc as we do in building up our war machine we would have money for the good of the poor and working class,the money spent on illegal wars and killing machinery is sickening to me as an American and Christian. In Chrst

America is the most generous country in the world. I have been in mexico the last two weeks where they supposedly have all the things you mention above-thay also have something you dont see in the US-slums. The poor in the Untied States live better than the midle class here.

The reason that the US is so prosperous and generous is because we have a militray to protect us.

 

[Peccavi]

Being middle class and reading this I feel I have a duty to do what I can but I do not see license in this to go and sieze the wealth of rich to give it to the poor.

There is no Gospel imperative to do that. Salvation is entirely personal. What must I do to be saved, not what must society do. But in the epistle of Saint James there is an implicit sense that within a Christian community there should be no economic winners or loosers but a common wealth shared equally. This has interesting implications for us as Christians.
Note - Luther refused to include the Epistle of St.James in his studies because of its egalitarian message. In fact he considered it dross.

 

[rmcbride77]

I do not vote, and I have never voted. A lot of people say I am stupid for not exercising my democratic rights, but I don’t think so. The reason I don’t vote is because I don’t really have any strong political beliefs, and I don’t subscribe to any political ideology. I won’t vote until I know what I’m voting for. I make all of my decisions based on the teachings of the Catholic Church. I am completely ignorant when it comes to politics and government.

I know that there is Communism on the left, democracy in the centre, and fascism on the right. I also know that democratic governments can be slightly to the left, or slightly to the right. Political parties can be classed as socialist, or capitalist, left or right. It seems to me that politics is basically capitalism v socialism. I want to know which is better for society: Capitalism or Socialism?

The USA has always been a capitalist stronghold. America seems to despise communism and socialism. Why is this? My country (UK) and Canada seem to be more friendly towards socialism, as we both have free, national healthcare and other socialist policies. What is better for society? Total capitalism, or a society which has some socialist policies?

As a Catholic, I use the teachings of the Church to help me make important decisions. I want to vote according to the teachings of the Catholic Church. With this in mind, should a Catholic vote for socialist government or capitalist government? Which political ideology shares most in common with the doctrines of the faith?

I tend to think that socialism is more in line with Catholic teaching, because these governments provide free healthcare to the poor, welfare to the unemployed, and welfare to the disabled. Socialist governments look after the workers by nationalising industries. In comparison, capitalism appears to be cold and callous. It enables the rich to exploit the poor. Within capitalism, the rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer. Is this a fair assessment?

I want my vote to help the poor, the weak, the old, and the vulnerable. I want to make Church social teaching become a reality. Should I be a capitalist or a communist?

Which is better for a society: Capitalism or Communism?

I am with you on this one

I try to vote for the candidate or party that takes care of the worker, the poor, the middle class and has policies that take care of the disabled and all those that fall through the cracks.
My wife and I both call ourselves socialists, though I don’t think we are pure socialists. I think we, like the UK, think that having some socialist programs and policies makes a better form of government. I think socialism more closely follows the teachings of Christ and His Church

thanks for posting this

Ron

 

[rmcbride77]

Communism has failed everytime it has been tried. Fascism, BTW, is left wing .

I don’t think that is correct.

Walter Laqueur says that historical fascism “did not belong to the extreme Left, yet defining it as part of the extreme Right is not very illuminating either”, but that it “was always a coalition between radical, populist (‘fascist’) elements and others gravitating toward the extreme Right”.

Some authors such as Roger Griffin argue that since the end of World War II, fascist movements have become intertwined with the radical right, describing certain groups as part of a “fascist radical right”.

Stanley Payne notes the alliances and sometimes fusion between fascists and right-wing authoritarians but stresses the important differences between the two.

One of the biggest differences between fascism and left-wing politics is that fascism rejects the idea of class conflict in favor of class collaboration, while also rejecting socialist internationalism in favor of statist nationalism. A. James Gregor argues that the most “uninspired effort to understand fascism” is to simply place it on the right-wing, or the radical right, as the common tendency was in the Anglosphere during the post-war period.

The Fascist Manifesto’s initial promises included nationalization property and class conflict, but some their promises were moderated or abolished later. Many economists define “socialism” as an ideology which aims at constructing a society in which the means of production are socialized. Some argue that Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy were socialist countries according to this definition. Sternhell sees fascism as anti-Marxist form of socialism.

Fascists described themselves a “third force” that was outside the traditional political spectrum altogether. Many scholars accept fascism as a search for a third way among these positions.

Sir Oswald Mosley, the leader of the British Union of Fascists, described his position as “hard centre” in the political spectrum.

Lipset sees fascism as “extremism of the center”.

 

[StevenFrancis]

I do not vote, and I have never voted. A lot of people say I am stupid for not exercising my democratic rights, but I don’t think so. The reason I don’t vote is because I don’t really have any strong political beliefs, and I don’t subscribe to any political ideology. I won’t vote until I know what I’m voting for. I make all of my decisions based on the teachings of the Catholic Church. I am completely ignorant when it comes to politics and government.

I know that there is Communism on the left, democracy in the centre, and fascism on the right. I also know that democratic governments can be slightly to the left, or slightly to the right. Political parties can be classed as socialist, or capitalist, left or right. It seems to me that politics is basically capitalism v socialism. I want to know which is better for society: Capitalism or Socialism?

The USA has always been a capitalist stronghold. America seems to despise communism and socialism. Why is this? My country (UK) and Canada seem to be more friendly towards socialism, as we both have free, national healthcare and other socialist policies. What is better for society? Total capitalism, or a society which has some socialist policies?

As a Catholic, I use the teachings of the Church to help me make important decisions. I want to vote according to the teachings of the Catholic Church. With this in mind, should a Catholic vote for socialist government or capitalist government? Which political ideology shares most in common with the doctrines of the faith?

I tend to think that socialism is more in line with Catholic teaching, because these governments provide free healthcare to the poor, welfare to the unemployed, and welfare to the disabled. Socialist governments look after the workers by nationalising industries. In comparison, capitalism appears to be cold and callous. It enables the rich to exploit the poor. Within capitalism, the rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer. Is this a fair assessment?

I want my vote to help the poor, the weak, the old, and the vulnerable. I want to make Church social teaching become a reality. Should I be a capitalist or a communist?

Which is better for a society: Capitalism or Communism?

There are deeply inherent problems for the Christian person in both of the primary economic extremes. The U.S. and Europe are currently experiencing some of the downside of capitalism. It contains no checks and balances for greed, and tends to place money above the lives of individual people. The old Soviet Union, and Maoist China experienced from their inceptions, the inherent problems with communism. A complete reliance on the state for sustinence also allows the state to impose unacceptable control over the individuals life. There is a loss of free will.

Christians are called to be IN the world, but not OF the world. Our kingdom is yet to come. We are to use the gift of democracy, (something I don’t think we’ll see disappear again under any economic system in the future, by the way. There will from now on be democratic socialists, and democratic capitalists, but the largest portion of the world will always be democratic from now on), to try to make clear the errors and hardness of both extremes in economic structure. A Christian should be the conscience of all geopolitical imposition. At the same time, we must obey the laws imposed by our own Governments, even as we strive to LEGALLY AND PEACEFULLY change and perfect them to the degree that the state we live in will allow. We must be good citizens under any system, but make every effort legally available to make the system more responsive to Christian love.

Above all, whether we live in a hard capitalist or hard socialist environment should be virtually irrelevant to our personal demonstration of love, charity and care for our brothers and sisters who are poor and disenfranchised, and have fallen through the cracks in either system. Our purposeful demonstration of love for God and our neighbor were the two primary commandments according to the Christ. Economies which promote greed to the point where people go unaided have problems. Economies which try to take care of everything, and by virtue of this can take care of nothing have problems.

Christians must concern themselves with the people. We’re neither communists nor capitalists. We are good citizens of our born environment. Good stewards of what we are given. Above all, we are kind and generous to anyone in need.

The Church has openly criticized most economies. The Church get criticized for this seemingly wishy washy stance. But it is nonetheless valid. By adopting a Christian world view, you’re perfectly justified in pointing out the errors in any economic systems, since economics is not in the primary purview of Christianity. Love, Hope and Charity are.

Personally, I THINK I would favor an economy which blends some elements of socialism with some elements of capitalism. Allowing for free and open markets for the manufacture and trade of goods and property, but having industries which are directly tied to the basics of life, regulated, or run by the state. This way capitalists can still get rich of the making and trading of goods and technology, but the state should make sure that the sick are cared for, regardless of their financial status, and that the workers in any industry are fairly treated, fed, and housed. This can be done in a variety of ways. I don’t profess to have an answer. I’m not an economist, and since this type of situation doesn’t currently exist anywhere that I’m aware of, I’m guessing it also has a myriad of holes and problems. Such is life. We just keep on striving, but helping others all we can in the meantime.

Peace,

Steven

 

[rmcbride77]

There are deeply inherent problems for the Christian person in both of the primary economic extremes. The U.S. and Europe are currently experiencing some of the downside of capitalism. It contains no checks and balances for greed, and tends to place money above the lives of individual people. The old Soviet Union, and Maoist China experienced from their inceptions, the inherent problems with communism. A complete reliance on the state for sustinence also allows the state to impose unacceptable control over the individuals life. There is a loss of free will.

Christians are called to be IN the world, but not OF the world. Our kingdom is yet to come. We are to use the gift of democracy, (something I don’t think we’ll see disappear again under any economic system in the future, by the way. There will from now on be democratic socialists, and democratic capitalists, but the largest portion of the world will always be democratic from now on), to try to make clear the errors and hardness of both extremes in economic structure. A Christian should be the conscience of all geopolitical imposition. At the same time, we must obey the laws imposed by our own Governments, even as we strive to LEGALLY AND PEACEFULLY change and perfect them to the degree that the state we live in will allow. We must be good citizens under any system, but make every effort legally available to make the system more responsive to Christian love.

Above all, whether we live in a hard capitalist or hard socialist environment should be virtually irrelevant to our personal demonstration of love, charity and care for our brothers and sisters who are poor and disenfranchised, and have fallen through the cracks in either system. Our purposeful demonstration of love for God and our neighbor were the two primary commandments according to the Christ. Economies which promote greed to the point where people go unaided have problems. Economies which try to take care of everything, and by virtue of this can take care of nothing have problems.

Christians must concern themselves with the people. We’re neither communists nor capitalists. We are good citizens of our born environment. Good stewards of what we are given. Above all, we are kind and generous to anyone in need.

The Church has openly criticized most economies. The Church get criticized for this seemingly wishy washy stance. But it is nonetheless valid. By adopting a Christian world view, you’re perfectly justified in pointing out the errors in any economic systems, since economics is not in the primary purview of Christianity. Love, Hope and Charity are.

Personally, I THINK I would favor an economy which blends some elements of socialism with some elements of capitalism. Allowing for free and open markets for the manufacture and trade of goods and property, but having industries which are directly tied to the basics of life, regulated, or run by the state. This way capitalists can still get rich of the making and trading of goods and technology, but the state should make sure that the sick are cared for, regardless of their financial status, and that the workers in any industry are fairly treated, fed, and housed. This can be done in a variety of ways. I don’t profess to have an answer. I’m not an economist, and since this type of situation doesn’t currently exist anywhere that I’m aware of, I’m guessing it also has a myriad of holes and problems. Such is life. We just keep on striving, but helping others all we can in the meantime.

Peace,

Steven

well said… thanks Steven.

 

[royal_archer]

Maybe if we as a nation would show as much interest in creating livable wage jobs,feeding the hungry,free health insurance,etc as we do in building up our war machine we would have money for the good of the poor and working class,the money spent on illegal wars and killing machinery is sickening to me as an American and Christian. In Chrst

Yes we could have ended the Sadam threat much cheeper. Much of the money spent in Iraq is rebuilding their infratructure, ecconomy, etc. We also spent millions by using weapons that reduced collateral damage instead of just carpet bombing.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Pope Pius XI: “No one can be at the same time a sincere Catholic and a true socialist” (Quadragesimo Anno).